Introducing to birds

[TxAggie94]

I am looking for suggestions on introducing my dog to birds.

First, the chances of finding wild birds locally are about zilch. There just aren't any around. I am also having a tough time finding a piece of property I can get access to that is larger than about 4 acres. Is that large enough to expect a call back pen to work out?

I've read several places that planted birds aren't a good idea.

Thanks

[topher40]

There is nothing wrong with planted birds if done correctly, just like guns arent dangerous if used properly. Now a Planted bird isnt going to kill your dog if used improperly but you better know what your doing. This subject has been covered EXTENSIVELY on this board so do a search of it.

4 acres can work with a recall pen. I have 5 and use a johny house on my property around the house. You dont need a section of ground to work dogs but it doesnt hurt. Good luck!

[TxAggie94]

One of the books I'm reading says that planted birds don't smell the same as birds that flew into the area. So teaching your dog to find and point planted birds causes them problems with finding wild birds.

The other warning I hear is, as posted above, you have to know what you're doing and do it correctly. I've done some searches on here and I find a similar warning in numerous threads. But how do you do it correctly, or what are the no-nos.

Thanks again

[RayGubernat]

TXaggie -

Not all books on training dogs are worth the paper they ar printed on. That last comment about wild versus planted birds is pure, unadulterated BS.

Training dogs on liberated or planted gamebirds or pigeons...is done ALLL the time. Transitioning those same dogs to wild birds...successfully... is also done...ALL the time.

There are some trainers who would have you find 10,000 acres of virgin ground that is overrun with wild birds and say that you must let your yongster run wild for a year on those wild birds. That will work too, but I personally don't have access to 10,000 acres of open ground that has an average quail denisty of 1.5 birds per acre. I doubt that many folks actually do.

I suggest that you invest in a couple of books, or a video on the subject. My personal favorite is Paul Long's book "Training Pointing Dogs", but there are plenty of others that get you where you want to be as well. Bill Tarrant's- The Delmar Smith method, Whele's- Wing and Shot or Jim Marti's- Burnt Creek Method should give you plenty of ideas and options as to how to proceed.

I've not seen all the videos out there but I hear very good things about the Perfection series. I did view Delmar Smith's, Sherri Ray's and Ferrel Miller's videos and none of them were detailed enough at the critical places for a novice, IMHO.

RayG

[TxAggie94]

Thanks.

I currently have 5 books, plus three I have checked out from the library. It is possible to have too many resources!

A couple I've already decided to shelve, simply becuase I don't see the methods suggested working out for me.

Bill Tarrant's was actually the first book I had. I don't have any videos.

LOL - If I had 10K acres packed with birds, I either wouldn't have a dog, or I would be paying someone else to tell me how to train my kennel full of dogs.

[Benny]

TXaggie -
That last comment about wild versus planted birds is pure, unadulterated BS.

Ray, I agree with you on all things as I figure you've done years more work than me. I would however at least make a point of saying there is a difference between pen birds and wild. I doubt we as trainers recognize it or see it in our dogs, but if the bird isn't properly left in open air coop with a descent breeze they can often smell cagey. Also try to wear gloves when planting because the dog sometimes will not point birds that have human scent (or the opposite could happen, they might seek birds with your scent).
Feel free to totally disagree, its just a footnote disagreement, otherwise I completely agree that planted pen-raised birds are just fine.

[RayGubernat]

Benny - No disagreement whatever. Of course they smell different.

Penraised birds smell like bird poop because, even if they are kept on wire, they step in it and it is in the air all around them. They also smell like bird chow, because that is what they eat instead of available seeds. Most penraised birds do not produce the oils that a wild bird produces because they are kept indoors and have no real need to generate the oils to keep their feathers dry and fluffed that a wild bird must do to survive in a rainstorm.


My point is that, if the dog is properly introduced, it really should make no difference if the dog is started on penraised birds...or pigeons. My experence leasd me to believe that dogs that have been raised and trained on penrasied birds will generally make a good transition to wild birds. The reverse ain't necessarily true, but that is another topic and another argument.

My expereince has been that the wild birds will learn 'em not to get too close in a very short time so that isn't much of a big deal to me. There is no question in my mind, however, that a dog that is raised and trained on penraised birds will be well behind the learning curve especially on how to go about finding wild birds...at least for a while. A good dog will figure it out I think.

RayG

[TxAggie94]

So, I think what I hear you saying is that pen-raised, planted birds do smell different (due to a variety of reasons). The dog can tell the difference. But, there's enough good bird smell on them that the dog will recognize wild birds as birds and make the connection that if pointing the planted birds made me happy, pointing the wild ones will make me happy too. So the dog, assuming he has potential, will make the transition quickly.

Secondly, I assume your other comment is implying that planted birds may sit tighter and let the dog get closer than wild birds would. But once the dog busts a couple of wild birds, he'll learn to give them more room.

Sound about right?

You do say that a dog taught on planted birds will be behind the curve on finding wild birds? Is this because of the different smell, or smelling human scent left from planting, or because I know where the bird is and sort of set him up for it, or...?

[Benny]

Tx, yeah the birds smell different, but I think what Ray and I both agree on is that they're an excellent training tool regardless. Training exercises involving planted birds are often quite easy for pointers with a good nose, and in my experience, yes the birds will hold tight. Birds in the wild come fewer and farther between, and as the season gets later, they bust earlier...and earlier...and earlier

[RayGubernat]

TXaggie -

I believe you got my drift.

The reason I believe that a dog that has only experienced penraised birds will indeed be behind the curve is a matter of expereince.

Penraised birds will be found where they are put.

Wild birds will be found where they put themselves. That changes with the species, the terrain, the weather, the season, the time of day...etc. The only way for a dog to learn where the birds are is to go hunt them in their own environment, using his legs to carry him there, his nose to ferret out their scent and his brains to process and store the information for later use.

Experience is the only teacher for wild birds and that takes time and space and bootleather. But as I said...most good dogs will figure it out pretty well if they are given the opportunity. A wild quail dog that has extensive experience hunting Ok and West TX quail might need a few days to figure out birds from the FL panhandle and a great covey dog from the FL panhandle or west TX will probably need some time to work out the intricasies of nailing down an Iowa ringneck.

Some will be better at this species or that species, just like some dogs are better covey dogs than they are singles dogs, or better woodcock dogs than grouse dogs(or vice versa), but most good dogs will figure out what it takes to get you that shot.

RayG

[aylaschamp]

Everyone on here has a different opinion on EVERYTHING. I'll tell mine and I'd like to see what all of you think. This thread wasn't about how the birds smelled, it was about first introductions to birds. I feel like the best way to first introduce pups to birds is with pigeons. If the pup gets scared it won't ruin them on quail. I like to get a pigeon and wave it in front of the pup arousing it's interests and when the pup can't stand any more I'll let it go. Hopefully the little guy will try to chase it. Once I'm sure the wings flapping wont scare the pup I move on to pen raised birds. Aggie, what part of the world are you in?

[TxAggie94]

West of Ft. Worth. Weatherford, specifically.

[ezzy333]

I wouldn't worry a seconfd about how a bird smells. Every bird in every field smells different just like every person smells different to a bloodhound. Dogs do not think therfore they don't have a clue what is a game bird and what isn't till they get some experience and then they basically point most anything if they can smell it and can't see it. With some experience they may become more selective. You can start a puppy on any bird that it can see and that usually happens naturally in the yard. As far as something for it to chase and catch a pigeon or quail would be great. Hopefully then you can move on to hidden birds and again quail,pigeons or chukars would be the birds of choice here in our country. Many of my pups have started on pheasants and though they are a little big and may set the pup back on its heels I have never seen a pup that didn't try again the next time it got the opportunity. Purchase something that the pup can chase and learn to point and let it figure it out and you will have a birddog before you know it.

Ezzy

[aylaschamp]

If you want a fun time and to meet some really nice people check this out. Rob, the guy putting it on is a heck of a guy and you'll learn more than you'd ever want to know about training if you go.

http://nstra.org/lonestar.htm

[Uplander]

I just wanted to add my opinion, as much for the novice as for his dog. In my 30+ years experience, planted birds have their place however some newbys - in all fairness - don't know what that is. I'm not going to go on about my process because it would be far too lengthy for this medium. I will say that pen-rasied Bobs only contribute to two distinct micro-processes in my program. It is the second bird I use for intro to birds (followed by coturnix for a young pup ~ 3-5 months of age). I then use pen-raised Bobs again but only after I have already steadied a dog up to be fairly reliable. By-the-way, a bird is a bird is a bird! Sure, they don't look as fancy on point in early training but I don't make excuses for a dog.
At this point, the dog understands the expectation whether it's a pigeon, pen-raised quail or whatever. I have seen more decent dogs ruined by pen-raised Bobs than I care to recall! The key factor is that even when your pen-raised quail are well conditioned, they can be easy pickings for a young or strong minded pointer that is fleet of paw! I won't risk it.
In a nut-shell, I use:
1 - a (that is 1) coturnix to elevate prey drive and confidence (again, this is a very young pup),
2 - a few Bobs to teach pup that these beggars can actually fly off (no risk of intimidation even though pup is quite young),
3 - lots of pigeons (by-the-way, both HOW and WHERE pigeons are planted is critical),
4 - back to Bobs,
5 - your bird of choice (chukar, etc.)
6 - Take her/him hunting on wild birds.
In the end, Ray et al are right. All the formal training in the world won't make a decent hunting dog. You have to take a dog hunting to make a savvy bird dog. Yessir, wild birds will take your dog to the next level! A well bred dog with proper formal training and time hunting wild birds is truly something to behold!

[TxAggie94]

So, again, I am hearing warnings about dangers when using pen-raised or planted birds, but I'm not picking up specifically what the dangers are. Is it only that the dog may learn to catch them because they are not as skiddish and quick as wild birds? Or are the other dangers as well.

[Benny]

So, again, I am hearing warnings about dangers when using pen-raised or planted birds, but I'm not picking up specifically what the dangers are. Is it only that the dog may learn to catch them because they are not as skiddish and quick as wild birds? Or are the other dangers as well.

Put a puppy on a chukar or a pheasant, the birds will flap the dog in the face should he close in on them.
Tx, I really think you've gotten the best information you'll ever get on this thread. Uplander put it very elegantly as well as a nice step by step regime. Also, consort with the Bill Tarrant book on the Delmar Smith method. A good percentage of people will agree that it is a proven method, and 100% will agree that when you find the method you like, stick to it completely.

edit: sooo many spelling errors, Benny

[wems2371]

So, again, I am hearing warnings about dangers when using pen-raised or planted birds, but I'm not picking up specifically what the dangers are. Is it only that the dog may learn to catch them because they are not as skiddish and quick as wild birds? Or are the other dangers as well.

Penned quail lose their flight ability rather quickly--if you do not have a large flight pen for them to exercise, so to speak. That's not to say they can't fly, but they may not fly far or they may not get far off the ground. If you plant them by hand (no launcher or kick cage), you might put them to sleep too well or I've seen them planted too hard before--to where they were actually dead by the time the dog got to them. Pigeons don't lose much (if any) flight ability by being penned and tend to fly straight up on a flush. If you plant them by hand you might put them to sleep too well also, making them not flush well. You do not want your dog repeatedly catching birds. Therefore, I believe what the more experienced folks are telling you, is that you won't have those problems with wild birds. That being said, with proper planning, it is not rocket science to use pen raised birds efficiently. Folks do it everyday.

My first gundog, got her introduction to birds at around 5 months. I would have liked to start sooner, but that was when we finally found birds to purchase. I was familiar with pigeons, from having them in my youth, so that is the bird I started with. They fly well, are hard to kill, require only a small rabbit hutch-like coop, and are reusable. With no money for launchers, we "carded" our first birds with garden hose. We either left the dog at home or kept her in the truck, while we went to the neighbors and planted 3 birds. We would tuck their heads under their wings, give 'em a couple spins, and plant them in cover...hiding the hose as well. We then brought our young pup in on a 20' checkcord, and worked the field, guiding her into the scent cone. She had a good staunch point from the very first day. My husband would hold a loose lead while I went up and flushed the bird. If the bird didn't take off on it's own, I'd give it a boot lift or at worst reach down and throw it up, where it would then proceed to fly off for a 100' or so. We'd let the dog chase for the 20' of rope and then move onto the next bird. We did that for a couple times a week for a month or so. The pigeons were then accustomed to the coop to where we could then use them without the garden hose. That made for a little more natural flush, and the ability to release the dog from the checkcord during the point, allowing the dog to chase but not catch a bird. We eventually got one manual launcher and then an auto, and a good flush and flight of the bird was a given at that point. Around 8 months old, we found a quail supplier and used those for the next couple lessons and then went back to the pigeons. As the pup progressed in her training, and we knew better what we were doing and how the birds would fly, we started running without the checkcord. Now we mostly use pigeons, and mix a few quail and even a pheasant in now and then. Okay, now I'm pretty much rambling...

My point is that if you don't have a wild bird field to access, planted birds at this point will do you fine if you approach it with knowledge and a plan prior to the lesson. After you've gone out, evaluate what went right and what went wrong, so you can make a plan for the next day out. Glean as much information as you can from as many sources as you can. There are a lot of different ways to still get a good end result. Find a hands on mentor if you can to help you with your first planting of birds and dog introduction, if you go that route. There are many folks that would give you 30 minutes to plant some birds in a field and give your pup a quick run thru. The person I bought my first 3 pigeons from, told me to bring my dog along and gave us our very first bird intro. If you have a NAVHDA club in your area, where you can participate in training days, you have a great resource to draw from. I know what it feels like to be brand new to this and not want to screw up a good dog, but if approached properly, pen raised birds won't be an issue......but just a stepping stone to your goal of hunting wild birds. Denise

[TexasAggie09]

TxAggie,

If your west of Ft. Worth, you could drive about two hours north to bowie to get some birds. The trainer at Crockett ranch has birds and I am sure he would sell you a few. I had my setter out there for a month with him, he is a really good guy. His name is Russ Pankey, and you can contact him through the ranch website at http://www.crockettranch.com

Good luck and if you have any more questions, don't be afraid to send me a PM.

Gig 'Em!
TexasAggie09

[Benny]

seriously where are the longhorn's on this forum?

[TxAggie94]

Aggie09,

Thanks, I'll check it out. Bowie's about an hour from here.


Benny - don't get us started. I'd hate to get banned my first week on the forum for picking on someone of a different collegiate background.

[Kory]

There are a few other places that have good flying quail around you There is the Box H in Stephenville and there is also a guy that raises them in Grandbury and lives in Fort Worth whose name is Mat and he is usualy good about meeting up at an easy location along the way in fact he is dilevering our birds to use for our hunt test in Decator. If you need any of their phone numbers pm me and I can send them to you. Me and a couple of others from the Wiem club also do some training in Anna and we are by no means pros but although it is a little bit of a haul for you if you come along some time we would love to have you. We are also hosting our hunt test this weekend if you are free and would like to come watch the more the marrier it just outside of Alvord (north if Decator). http://www.trinityvalleyweimcluboftexas.com to get out there at the end of preamium entry form there is a box with the directions. If you do make it out there make sure to find me and intorduse your self I will most likley bw out planting birds and my wife will be the one cooking.


Kory