E collar or not?

subatomicstang · Post by **subatomicstang** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:38 pm

My wife has been talking about getting an e collar for the dogs. What are the pros and cons of these things neither of us have ever used them. I understand if they are not used properly it may be very damaging to the training. So basically i need some opinions and also if anyone had a specefic model they suggest i would want it for two dogs.

Oh at what stage of their training do you start them?
-Randy B

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:07 pm

An e collar should be nothing more then an invisible leash

It isn't about putting the fear into the dog it is about teaching cues
like with a leash or command lead my chosen method is taps for movement command cues and a constant till stopped for whoa or stand still cues and commands
Always use the lightest level pof stimulation the dog will respond to not react

And also very important thw e collar is an extention of commands already known

It is a tool to help aid a dog into following through on those known commands

And it is no more abusive then the hand that controls it

Tony Brown · Post by **Tony Brown** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:15 pm

Well said Arlette.....you couldn't have explained it better. Rick Smith would be proud lol By the way, how are the Frank x Jackie pups doing?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:53 pm

Thank you

I really like the male he has tons of natural to him

R-Middleton · Post by **R-Middleton** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:20 pm

An e-collar is a great training tool, if use properly. If not it can be very harmful. Get a good book or video and follow it to the T. The Tri-Tronics collar introduction is a good way to go. The instructions come in the box with the collars.
Good luck,

Ray Middleton

LoveMyGSPs · Post by **LoveMyGSPs** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:00 pm

Thanks guys. So can you use the collar for even obediance commands, such as sit, heel, come, etc? Our male hit 6 months and is starting that whole "I dont care what you say, I aint doing it!" stage and giving us the middle paw. He knows the commands but unless he feels like it, he wont do it. I was able to get a VERY nice whoa on the table last night (walked all the way around him and he didnt move at all) but I also had some treats.

Our female is 1.5 yr old and VERY hyper (but not distructive just likes to run, etc). She is great on the leash (just needs more time as she is a rescue), but for some reason when she is told to sit, she gets amped up and cant sit still and jumps around. She also gets very amped up when we put them in the kennel (10x7 chain link pen) and jumps and whines and barks and gets our male worked up as well. He has gotten to the point where he listens to our out command (the noise - ainnnnnnt!) and knows to be calm and wait to be let out, but now with her letting the excitement level go through the roof, he cant help himself and gets worked up too. Though he does listen when he is told to cut it out and when we approach the kennel, he knows to sit quietly, while the whole time the female is going bonkers. I would think that the E collar would work as she does listen to the out command in most situations and knows it but when she reaches that level, she just wont listen.

Also, while we are asking questions - what about the "chain gang" or stake out situation? I have been working them seperately, but have to put one in the kennel while working with the other. Of course, they throw a hissy fit but again, the male gives it up quickly but the female again goes bonkers. It gets very distracting for the dog being worked, plus the dog in the kennel cannot focus on what the working dog is doing, and it just all kind of goes to crap. What are the advantages of the stake out? I would assume b/c it is a shorter lead, that they cant jump and bounce around and eventually they just chill out? Any thoughts?

subatomicstang · Post by **subatomicstang** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:11 pm

12 by 6 ft kennel. I understand the whole misuseing of these devices and to only use them for commands you know they know. I suppose it would be great to be able to get their attention when they arent right in your hand.

MikeB · Post by **MikeB** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:59 pm

subatomicstang,

Just curioius, Why does your wife think she needs an e-collar for the dogs? What does she want to accomplish with one?

The Dobbs Training Center has excellent e-collar training library of articles for all types of dogs and training needs.

http://www.dobbsdogs.com/

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:54 am

My dogs almost NEVER go afield, whether for training or hunting, without an e-collar on.

Can they be trained or hunted without the collar on? Absolutely. Each of them has multiple field trial placements which obviously means that they were able to run without a collar on and do everything right.

However, running them afield without a collar on is like a trapeze artist performing without a net. Can they? Sure...but why take the risk? If the dog blows you off at 200-300 yds. and it does not have a collar on, there is very little you can do about it on foot and not that much more you can do if you are mounted.

My pesonal preference is for Tritronics because I like the way the stim buttons are set up and I prefer the the click adjustable intensity knob. I can reach down and feel the correct button(s) wth my hand without ever taking my eyes off the dog. I cannot do that with my backup collar transmitter (a DT systems). I can also change the intensity setting without looking because I can count the clicks though a gloved hand. I definitely cannot do that with the DT. I have a Flyway Special(essentially the same as a Pro 200).

I may train or hunt a dog for weeks without ever needing to use the collar and when I do need to, it is almost always sufficient to cue them with a low level nick.

Hope this helps.

RayG

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:10 am

I am with ray on my dogs always wear an e collar except for trials

I have the pro 100 and control with my finger the momentary or constant as needed

With the e collar as RayG was explaining you will put yourself in a position about not missing opportunities to train the thing you want to instill and not training the dog to blow you off

Another thing about the age of your dog/pup

you will go through the dogs learning and learning then one day it is like someone flipped a switch ad swapped you dogs

those times are very important that you go ahead go back to basics basically feeling like your reteaching the dog every time they test like this and you follow through with what needs to eb done you actually will be instilling the training deeper to the being ingrained

kinda like kids ...everyday the chore is for them to do the dishes...and what happens the one day you don't Tell them to do the dishes.....They don't get done

subatomicstang · Post by **subatomicstang** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:54 pm

LoveMyGSPs wrote:Thanks guys. So can you use the collar for even obediance commands, such as sit, heel, come, etc? Our male hit 6 months and is starting that whole "I dont care what you say, I aint doing it!" stage and giving us the middle paw. He knows the commands but unless he feels like it, he wont do it. I was able to get a VERY nice whoa on the table last night (walked all the way around him and he didnt move at all) but I also had some treats.

Our female is 1.5 yr old and VERY hyper (but not distructive just likes to run, etc). She is great on the leash (just needs more time as she is a rescue), but for some reason when she is told to sit, she gets amped up and cant sit still and jumps around. She also gets very amped up when we put them in the kennel (10x7 chain link pen) and jumps and whines and barks and gets our male worked up as well. He has gotten to the point where he listens to our out command (the noise - ainnnnnnt!) and knows to be calm and wait to be let out, but now with her letting the excitement level go through the roof, he cant help himself and gets worked up too. Though he does listen when he is told to cut it out and when we approach the kennel, he knows to sit quietly, while the whole time the female is going bonkers. I would think that the E collar would work as she does listen to the out command in most situations and knows it but when she reaches that level, she just wont listen.

Also, while we are asking questions - what about the "chain gang" or stake out situation? I have been working them seperately, but have to put one in the kennel while working with the other. Of course, they throw a hissy fit but again, the male gives it up quickly but the female again goes bonkers. It gets very distracting for the dog being worked, plus the dog in the kennel cannot focus on what the working dog is doing, and it just all kind of goes to crap. What are the advantages of the stake out? I would assume b/c it is a shorter lead, that they cant jump and bounce around and eventually they just chill out? Any thoughts?

This is why.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:53 am

Great believer in the collar here. My dogs never go out of the house without it, never hunt without it. The most important thing to know, is that the dog must be completely trained without the collar before you use it on the dog. It is strictly a reinforcement to all ready known commands, whether they're been taught with a rope on heeling stick.

An ecollar can't teach a dog a thing. It is strictly a reinforcement for all ready known commands.

subatomicstang · Post by **subatomicstang** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:45 pm

IS an e collar and a invisible fence a bad thing if both used on same dog? I am thinking of getting invisible fence to barrier our work shed so the dogs wont get into things. Now is the correction in the e collar the same as the invisible fence collar ? Will they get confused ?

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:31 pm

I have never had anyone tell me the two together caused any problems. There's little difference between an invisible fence and aversion training. One thing I'll caution about though. Some dogs learn to ignore the invisible fence collar and just run through. I don't like that. I feel it could cause some major problems (bolting for example) later in training.

donnie_19 · Post by **donnie_19** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:35 pm

I have been in the dog fence business for several years, so email me if you have questions about the invisible fences. I have trained over 5000 dogs to the invisible fence and several of those are hunting dogs. I have never had a dog confused by the fence but its important to time the events to not overlap. Never fence train a dog if you are starting to e collar train, wait until its over. We teach the dog to turn away when the fence collar activates. Unlike e-collar work where we want the dog to stop moving. This is easily accomplished but like all training it has steps that need to be followed so you don't have a freaked out dog that won't leave the porch. There are a lot of myths about invisible fences. Just like e collars the fence equipment has made several advances in the last couple of years.

subatomicstang · Post by **subatomicstang** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:01 pm

donnie_19 wrote:I have been in the dog fence business for several years, so email me if you have questions about the invisible fences. I have trained over 5000 dogs to the invisible fence and several of those are hunting dogs. I have never had a dog confused by the fence but its important to time the events to not overlap. Never fence train a dog if you are starting to e collar train, wait until its over. We teach the dog to turn away when the fence collar activates. Unlike e-collar work where we want the dog to stop moving. This is easily accomplished but like all training it has steps that need to be followed so you don't have a freaked out dog that won't leave the porch. There are a lot of myths about invisible fences. Just like e collars the fence equipment has made several advances in the last couple of years.

Thanks for that!

subatomicstang · Post by **subatomicstang** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:33 pm

I just placed my order for perfection kennels perfect start/finish dvd set. Do they go into e collars?

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:25 am

Randy -

If you ae looking for a tritronics collar there are two things you can do. First check the TriTronics website. They were running a deal where if you sent in a broken TT collar you would get a hefty discount on a new unit. If it is still in effect, see if you can scrounge up an old, broken TT collar from someone. They were also offereing a lesser discount if you turned in a competing MFR's collar.

If that is a no go, check out Grain Valley Supply before you order from the major mail order outfits.

RayG

subatomicstang · Post by **subatomicstang** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:50 am

RayGubernat wrote:Randy -

If you ae looking for a tritronics collar there are two things you can do. First check the TriTronics website. They were running a deal where if you sent in a broken TT collar you would get a hefty discount on a new unit. If it is still in effect, see if you can scrounge up an old, broken TT collar from someone. They were also offereing a lesser discount if you turned in a competing MFR's collar.

If that is a no go, check out Grain Valley Supply before you order from the major mail order outfits.

RayG

Looks like they are the same price as pretty much everywhere .
For a beginner is the sport basic g3 good ?

-Randy

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:54 am

Randy -

It has a half mile range and a dial intensity changer...those are two things I do not like.

A half mile range sounds like a lot, but that is a half mile under ideal conditions. In cover or in hilly terrain that range can drop dramatically.

I do not like rotary dials for a bunch or reasons. They can move when you go through cover, so you can inadvertently fry your dog if you don't constantly check... and I can't seem to get the knack of changing the intensity without looking at the unit(which means I have to take my eyes off the dog). If the buttons are recessed, I also cannot feel which is the right button without looking.

For a beginning pointing dog person, I think something like the TT Field 90 would be a very good choice. They offer it in a multi dog version also.

I have a Flyway Special(which is not all that much different from a field 90)and have needed nothing more. I can do everything by touch and never have to take my eyes off the dog.

I do imagine however, that you will get used to whatever unit you purchase.

RayG

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:33 pm

Perfection has an excellent explanation of ecollar use.

subatomicstang · Post by **subatomicstang** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:01 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Perfection has an excellent explanation of ecollar use.

Great im looking foward to it! It shipped out today 2 to 3 days away !!!!!

subatomicstang · Post by **subatomicstang** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:34 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Randy -

It has a half mile range and a dial intensity changer...those are two things I do not like.

A half mile range sounds like a lot, but that is a half mile under ideal conditions. In cover or in hilly terrain that range can drop dramatically.

I do not like rotary dials for a bunch or reasons. They can move when you go through cover, so you can inadvertently fry your dog if you don't constantly check... and I can't seem to get the knack of changing the intensity without looking at the unit(which means I have to take my eyes off the dog). If the buttons are recessed, I also cannot feel which is the right button without looking.

For a beginning pointing dog person, I think something like the TT Field 90 would be a very good choice. They offer it in a multi dog version also.

I have a Flyway Special(which is not all that much different from a field 90)and have needed nothing more. I can do everything by touch and never have to take my eyes off the dog.

I do imagine however, that you will get used to whatever unit you purchase.

RayG

The g3 is more in my price range unless i can find a good used unit but i like the idea of the 2 year warranty and stuff.

subatomicstang · Post by **subatomicstang** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:48 pm

I do like the sound of the field 90 expandable to 3 dogs. 359.00 i can get it with one for now then upgrade later on when i have the funds.

2britts · Post by **2britts** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:44 pm

Collar Clinic might be another place for you to look. They sell reconditioned units and offer a 6 month warranty. There are also some good deals on ebay. I picked up an upland specal 2 dog unit for $225 I took a chance but it works great.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:47 pm

Randy -

A good e-collar is virtually a lifetime investment, if you buy the right one for your needs.
I have had my Flyway Special for almost twenty years now. I had the battery replaced once and when, about six years or so ago, that battery started failing, I called TT to arrange another service. For the price of the routine service, they upgraded the entire unit...collar and transmitter, to an EXP so I basically got a brnd new unti in my old tranmitter casing.

The $359 may sting a little right now, but I think you will be pleased with the utility of the unit. They are rugged and reliable and TT is a stand up company.

RayG

subatomicstang · Post by **subatomicstang** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:11 pm

thanks for all the help guys. I am sure the field 90 will be better for me I like the layout on the controls better anyways it looks old school to.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:54 pm

My father just got the TT G3 with beeper for his brittany. The thing I don't like about it is there doesn't seem to be a locate feature to the beeper. You could turn it on and off from the transmitter to make a beeping sound, but that's it. I hate being out in the woods with dog that beeps every 3-5 seconds and am not a fan of the point mode.

Had there been a locate mode on the beeper I probably would have gotten one for myself. Now I'm looking at the DT Systems collars. They supposed to have a 1 mile range and the beepers have a located mode. The best part is they are the most economical ones I've seen outside of LC Supply's own brand.

badzy · Post by **badzy** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:41 pm

wow!
im looking forward to having an e fence

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:14 pm

Grange wrote:My father just got the TT G3 with beeper for his brittany. The thing I don't like about it is there doesn't seem to be a locate feature to the beeper. You could turn it on and off from the transmitter to make a beeping sound, but that's it. I hate being out in the woods with dog that beeps every 3-5 seconds and am not a fan of the point mode.

Had there been a locate mode on the beeper I probably would have gotten one for myself. Now I'm looking at the DT Systems collars. They supposed to have a 1 mile range and the beepers have a located mode. The best part is they are the most economical ones I've seen outside of LC Supply's own brand.

That is all i do is turn it on and off to locate with my TT

have to say the DT 5002 with beepers is not on my list of collars I would ever consider again

we just lost a dog cause that very collar wouldn't work past 250 yards

barely used collar also

I went back to Tri tronics as their collars are the most consistant out there bob got that DT collar for the beepers right off the bat had to send them back to get resized for smaller necks as we have pointing breeds not labs..and then yesterday Bobs setter darted after a flush and then a rabbit ..got out of range ..bob called and called tried to zap the dog for the chase collar didn't work So now we have an ad in the local paper and ranchers and even some border patrol on the alert for a male setter tri color in the willcox area of Arizona wearing a DT with beeper collar

had the edt collar same thing wouldn't reach across the alfalfa field where i guide on and we are talking plain flat land site not woods or hills ...

So back to tri tronic even though you can turn on and off to locate you can control that so you can really get a better pin point on the dog versus one beep..JMHO

I don't get out to do much wild birds but when I do...I need something reliable and tri tronics came through again for me this last 3 days doing scalies mearns and gambles hunting in southern AZ and DT failed us yet again

subatomicstang · Post by **subatomicstang** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:31 pm

WOW ! i would be heartbroken if i ever lost my dog! Maybe this isnt the sport for me.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:11 pm

It is a bummer but in 10 years Bob has lost 2 dogs the last one was found 4 days later over 10 miles away from where we were hunting

just get your dog to listen and buy a quality collar

thankfully this is not a common occurance

when my buddy left i had to go back to using bells ...I need to purchase a couple more TT beepers for my Pro 100 ...we rarely get to go wild bird hunting as we are on a preserve which keeps me pretty busy when season is open...I like the beeper for locate myself

part of the problem also is bobs dog also had some self hunting issues but had the collar worked the dog would have been stopped from chasing had he had his classic 70 on his dog but he had the DT collar for the beeper since we didn't have the tri tronic beeper we sold them to a friend who guides for wild birds ...

the collar was fully charged and it was working at closer distances

hopefully he will make his way to a house and we will get a call

rkelly · Post by **rkelly** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:36 pm

I had a field 70 for 13 years that never failed me. Just traded it in for a Pro 100. I agree spend the money to get what you want, they last a long time and should be a one time investment per dog.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:39 am

subatomicstang wrote:WOW ! i would be heartbroken if i ever lost my dog! Maybe this isnt the sport for me.

If you're going to let the chance of a lost dog stop you from hunting, you may be in the wrong sport. Hunting with dogs is dangerous. They can run away, chase unwanted game and get lost, get hit by cars, where we live there's wolf and bear attacks and blastomycosis.

It's a tough sport on man and dog. A few years ago in SD I broke a leg and tore out an ACL when I stepped into a hidden badger hole. You have to be vigilant and sensible.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:39 am

subatomicstang wrote:WOW ! i would be heartbroken if i ever lost my dog! Maybe this isnt the sport for me.

If you're going to let the chance of a lost dog stop you from hunting, you may be in the wrong sport. Hunting with dogs is dangerous. They can run away, chase unwanted game and get lost, get hit by cars, where we live there's wolf and bear attacks and blastomycosis.

It's a tough sport on man and dog. A few years ago in SD I broke a leg and tore out an ACL when I stepped into a hidden badger hole. You have to be vigilant and sensible.

subatomicstang · Post by **subatomicstang** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:39 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
subatomicstang wrote:WOW ! i would be heartbroken if i ever lost my dog! Maybe this isnt the sport for me.
If you're going to let the chance of a lost dog stop you from hunting, you may be in the wrong sport. Hunting with dogs is dangerous. They can run away, chase unwanted game and get lost, get hit by cars, where we live there's wolf and bear attacks and blastomycosis.

It's a tough sport on man and dog. A few years ago in SD I broke a leg and tore out an ACL when I stepped into a hidden badger hole. You have to be vigilant and sensible.

I guess that may have been a bit dramatic on my part. So far i dont have any problems with him chasing things to the point i cant stop him. But he is only 6 months his prey drive may kick in high gear later on. The female we have thats a different story i believe she would get into a chase and not stop. Perhaps that why she ended up a rescue dog in the first place. Hopefully an e collar could snap her out of that.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:18 pm

For that problem, nothing beats the ecollar.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:17 pm

kninebirddog wrote:
Grange wrote:My father just got the TT G3 with beeper for his brittany. The thing I don't like about it is there doesn't seem to be a locate feature to the beeper. You could turn it on and off from the transmitter to make a beeping sound, but that's it. I hate being out in the woods with dog that beeps every 3-5 seconds and am not a fan of the point mode.

Had there been a locate mode on the beeper I probably would have gotten one for myself. Now I'm looking at the DT Systems collars. They supposed to have a 1 mile range and the beepers have a located mode. The best part is they are the most economical ones I've seen outside of LC Supply's own brand.

That is all i do is turn it on and off to locate with my TT

have to say the DT 5002 with beepers is not on my list of collars I would ever consider again

we just lost a dog cause that very collar wouldn't work past 250 yards barely used collar also

I went back to Tri tronics as their collars are the most consistant out there bob got that DT collar for the beepers right off the bat had to send them back to get resized for smaller necks as we have pointing breeds not labs..and then yesterday Bobs setter darted after a flush and then a rabbit ..got out of range ..bob called and called tried to zap the dog for the chase collar didn't work So now we have an ad in the local paper and ranchers and even some border patrol on the alert for a male setter tri color in the willcox area of Arizona wearing a DT with beeper collar

had the edt collar same thing wouldn't reach across the alfalfa field where i guide on and we are talking plain flat land site not woods or hills ...

So back to tri tronic even though you can turn on and off to locate you can control that so you can really get a better pin point on the dog versus one beep..JMHO

I don't get out to do much wild birds but when I do...I need something reliable and tri tronics came through again for me this last 3 days doing scalies mearns and gambles hunting in southern AZ and DT failed us yet again

Wow, that stinks. I really wanted a TT collar, but one of my must haves is the locate feature. The TT Upland Special G2 would be nice as it has a good range, but it is really expensive. Now I'm not one to go cheap, but considering I'm spending a lot of money on the puppy, training videos, training equipment, and I want to get the Garmin Astro, so I've got to draw a line somewhere. Too bad I didn't have an old TT collar. I wonder if Sport dog has a loyalty program?

R-Middleton · Post by **R-Middleton** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:06 pm

If you have a Gamin Astro, why do you need a locate on your e-collar?

Benny · Post by **Benny** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:14 pm

gonehuntin' wrote: A few years ago in SD I broke a leg and tore out an ACL when I stepped into a hidden badger hole. You have to be vigilant and sensible.

OUCH. When I roam graze flats for ground squirrels in the summer time I always end up leg-bombing into a badger hole. Sounds like that one got the best of ya though. The real kicker is when the little bugger is still in there. Meanest "bleep" critters on the face of this continent.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:26 pm

R-Middleton wrote:If you have a Gamin Astro, why do you need a locate on your e-collar?

Good point. Now I've got to think about my plan of action again.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:45 pm

Grange wrote:
kninebirddog wrote:
Grange wrote:My father just got the TT G3 with beeper for his brittany. The thing I don't like about it is there doesn't seem to be a locate feature to the beeper. You could turn it on and off from the transmitter to make a beeping sound, but that's it. I hate being out in the woods with dog that beeps every 3-5 seconds and am not a fan of the point mode.

Had there been a locate mode on the beeper I probably would have gotten one for myself. Now I'm looking at the DT Systems collars. They supposed to have a 1 mile range and the beepers have a located mode. The best part is they are the most economical ones I've seen outside of LC Supply's own brand.

That is all i do is turn it on and off to locate with my TT

have to say the DT 5002 with beepers is not on my list of collars I would ever consider again

we just lost a dog cause that very collar wouldn't work past 250 yards barely used collar also

I went back to Tri tronics as their collars are the most consistant out there bob got that DT collar for the beepers right off the bat had to send them back to get resized for smaller necks as we have pointing breeds not labs..and then yesterday Bobs setter darted after a flush and then a rabbit ..got out of range ..bob called and called tried to zap the dog for the chase collar didn't work So now we have an ad in the local paper and ranchers and even some border patrol on the alert for a male setter tri color in the willcox area of Arizona wearing a DT with beeper collar

had the edt collar same thing wouldn't reach across the alfalfa field where i guide on and we are talking plain flat land site not woods or hills ...

So back to tri tronic even though you can turn on and off to locate you can control that so you can really get a better pin point on the dog versus one beep..JMHO

I don't get out to do much wild birds but when I do...I need something reliable and tri tronics came through again for me this last 3 days doing scalies mearns and gambles hunting in southern AZ and DT failed us yet again
Wow, that stinks. I really wanted a TT collar, but one of my must haves is the locate feature. The TT Upland Special G2 would be nice as it has a good range, but it is really expensive. Now I'm not one to go cheap, but considering I'm spending a lot of money on the puppy, training videos, training equipment, and I want to get the Garmin Astro, so I've got to draw a line somewhere. Too bad I didn't have an old TT collar. I wonder if Sport dog has a loyalty program?

i was using the TT on my dogs...i just had it on point mode and then when we got in thick stuff and I didn't see then reappear every now and then I would just turn the beeper collar off then back on to locate...I like that as when you do turn it off and back on it gives different tones which one tone carries further then another and I am ok on high end tones and have some difficulties on low range tones so it found it easier to hear one of the tones depending on where the dog was

Sprig · Post by **Sprig** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:54 pm

Here is my 2 cents on the e-collar debate......years ago i hated them with a passion because i would go to picnic hunt tests and see guys "lighting up" their dogs for small infractions. I would see these same dogs run hunt tests with their legs between their legs even without the color on. It was at this same time i was running my own lab in hunt tests and got his master hunter title and qualified him for the master national.....all without any aid of an e-collar.

Now, a few years later, as a pro dog trainer i have turned to the e-collar as a tool to reinforce, not to teach. I am glad I learned the old fashioned way to train a dog without a collar and I am glad i had not jumped into the collar arena until after i gained a healthy respect for what they can and cannot do. Collars are no substitute for training, they can only enhance training principles, or ruin a dog with no training to build on, depending on how they are used.

probably 90% of the dogs i train now are with an e-collar and the dogs turn out so much better, and so much quicker than doing it the old fashioned way. I am most definately in support of e-collars as long as they are used with the training, not in-place of training.

there are several schools of thought on the correct way to e-collar train, the avoidance method or the force method. both will work if done properly but the force method as what was described earlier leaves very little room for error. personally, i prefer what i call the avoidance method.

subatomicstang · Post by **subatomicstang** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:21 pm

Well we ended up with the TT 70 g2 exp it was marked from 319.00 to 279.00 so i couldnt pass it up its simple in function 6 levels of constant stimulation.

We got it home and on the dog and starting at the smallest level to see which makes him react just the slightest bit, and well after he yelped and got totally wierded out about the stimulation i put it up for now. He definately didnt handle it well in my opinion. He was tail between his legs and hiding behind me. So back to the perfection dvd to further study. He does well obediance wise and today he did well in the junior hunt test. I feel like he cant handle that pressure of the e collar yet. I may be pulling the plug a little prematurely but instead of hurt him mentally ill just wait till he is a little further along in training.

Will listen to any suggestions you all may have. He is 6 month and a week, we tired the drill that the perfection dvd but even on level one he would do nothing but get all funny, and tuck his tail. I know it must be a change of pace for him being everything we have done to now has been on check cord or leash. I would try to work through the timidness but i dont like to seee a dog look so scared.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:50 pm

when he reacted to it ..i hope you just ignored him and left the collar on for a while so it wasn't related to stimulate then shut down hide behind you and you took the collar off

y
just put the collar on the dog make sure it is high on the neck and snug not low and sloppy .....just leave it on the dog and go for walks ...play

then take it off
every time you go out just put the collar on the dog use the leash leave the transmitter at home
get the dog used to wearing it
I will say this your going to have to over come what happened today..it sounds like it wasn't done or handled right ...if the collar isn't properly put on it can have a jolt effect rather then a stimulation effect

so i would just put the collar on and use the leash till the dog is no longer worried about something new on the neck
do not get frustrated if the dog slugs up behind you...just ignor the dog and go do something else
until the dog is relaxed leave the collar on
but dogs can get over it if you back up and redo it the right way

LoveMyGSPs · Post by **LoveMyGSPs** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:17 am

kninebirddog wrote:when he reacted to it ..i hope you just ignored him and left the collar on for a while so it wasn't related to stimulate then shut down hide behind you and you took the collar off

y
just put the collar on the dog make sure it is high on the neck and snug not low and sloppy .....just leave it on the dog and go for walks ...play

then take it off
every time you go out just put the collar on the dog use the leash leave the transmitter at home
get the dog used to wearing it
I will say this your going to have to over come what happened today..it sounds like it wasn't done or handled right ...if the collar isn't properly put on it can have a jolt effect rather then a stimulation effect

so i would just put the collar on and use the leash till the dog is no longer worried about something new on the neck
do not get frustrated if the dog slugs up behind you...just ignor the dog and go do something else
until the dog is relaxed leave the collar on
but dogs can get over it if you back up and redo it the right way

He had the collar on for over 2 hours before doing anything and ever since putting it on, he had no reaction or anxiety about it. He just over reacted to the lowest stimulation and just sulked and was concentrating on the feeling of the collar rather than listening to us. The collar was on very snug and just as the DVD and instruction pamplet showed.

I personally have found that he will listen if you take a more stern handle on him or if you have treats (which I dont like to do but I can use it for one or two commands and then he will figure out what is going on). We have backed off the treats but it seems that he does have a stubborn streak and that he did not take kindly to the mental pressure of being not reprimanded but, gently encouraged by the collar, and instead of submissing to it, he fought it and was rebelious of it by not doing as he was told (sit or come, etc) and just running around and sulking. I was able to get him to sit 2 times with the stimulation but he seemed so caught off guard by the stimulation that he mentally shut down. It was on the lowest setting and he would still yelp.

He doesnt come off as a "soft" dog but after his reaction to the collar, it appears he may be. I believe it is more of he doesnt know how to react to being controlled so "completely" mentally and shut down. I know on the Perfection DVD he states that the tail will go down and the whole demenor of the dog will go down b/c they are not used to having that total control mentally over them but that it will change. I feel that is kind of what happened but to a greater degree than shown in the DVD but my husband does not agree.

My husband thinks that the physically stimuation put him over the edge. He thinks that the fact that he has touched our electric fence that is in the horse pasture has made the collar a negative experience, even though the collar was introduced like 3 months after the last time he touched the fence. But after watching the video a second time, he wants to put him back on the check cord and start over at the come command and press the stimulation once the dog is moving so hes not just standing there feeling it.

After we received negative reactions from him that night, I did a lot of work on leash, with the collar still on but no stimulation, on heel, whoa, and sit. He seemed to connect the stimulation to the sit as that was the one he would NOT do (he has been having more issues with sit in the last 2 months and unless it was involving a treat, he would NOT sit and blew us off even with the leash and choke chain). We followed the Perfection DVD and kept the stimulation pressed until he complied and like I said above, he sat maybe twice but it was only after holding the button down for FAR too long. If we moved it to 1 level higher, he jumped in the air and yelped repeatidly so I dont think it was a matter of strength of the stimulation. After being unsuccessful with the collar in use, we kept it on and went back to leash work so that we could accomplish something. He heels great, follows me through the turn with no touching on the leash, and will WHOA hard and stop great. But the sit was NOT there. I would have to tug on the leash and give the command 2, 3, 4+ times to get the sit. FINALLY after like... 30 mins? I dont know he finally was sitting with just the command, no leash involvement, like the Perfection DVD says that need to do. I would have not pressed the issue for 30 mins had he not been very aware of what the command is and what the answer is for that question (it means sit your butt on the ground). I only gave the praise when he did it on his own, and he finally did it 3 times in a row by himself and we stopped. Once he was given the praise, his tail came up, his attitude was happier, etc. So yes, it did follow what the DVD said would happen, but it took far longer than expected due to him being past the basics on the leash. It just seems that he regressed once the collar was introduced. Well the stimulation, not the collar as he did not mind wearing the collar at all.

Though it is to be said that we didnt ruin him, lol. We went to our first hunt test the next day and he found and pointed 3 quail (first time on quail and 3rd time on birds) and we got our first qualifying score in JH. But it just seems that he had a bigger adverse reaction to the stimulation that we thought and he shut down mentally when it was use rather than "thinking" to find out that by doing the command the stimulation goes away. I have a horse like that and if you press and press, he just shuts down and plants his feet and that is that. That is kind of what he did that night.

Sorry its so long!

subatomicstang · Post by **subatomicstang** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:13 pm

EDIT: This is LoveMyGSPs btw, apparently my husband logged in after me and I didnt notice!

Just a quick update:

The female we just adopted (1.5 yrs old GSP) has a STRONG prey drive and no matter the correction, she will not leave the cats alone. The big male cat we have, weighing in around 20lbs, will growl and hiss at her and will not run so she leaves him alone but the others we have will run to avoid her, so she chases. She isnt mean but the cats are scared out of their minds. So today we put the collar on to use similar to an anti bark collar, etc. We tried it just on tone first and I would guess that she has had an ecollar on before as just the BEEP made her completely turn around and leave the cat alone. Even when the cat ran to get under the work shop, she wanted to chase it, but one tone, and BOOM, total avoidance. It was quite amazing and nice that the "scary cat made that scary beep noise" and we werent the ones having to get after her.

Is there a way to teach them that if they dont obey they get a warning of the beep and if they stil dont, then the stimulation? I thought I have read that is a method. It seems to be what she was taught before we got her.

At any rate, that is our experience with the collar so far. We have not used it on the male again as we have had them both out at the hunt test grounds this weekend and were able to run the course after the tests were over and let them both get on some quail. He did pretty good for being out in a HUGE field (probably over 20 acres) but the female... Well I think I know how she became a rescue - she ran off and they couldnt find her. Even with the stiffer cord left on her, once get sees a bird, that is it. I would think she would need the ecollar if nothing more to stop the chase long after a bird is flushed (not shot) and she will not return to us. I know she would chase a rabbit, deer, etc as well. Can you use the collar for that? To break their attention? Isnt that called like "trash breaking" or something similar?

Anyways, that is it so far.