force fetch hickup

[tatraxle]

I have started ff training with my 1.5 yr old griffon. This is my first bird dog and first attempt at training a bird dog. I've spent a few day on the first step with the glove fingers using take and give in place of hold and drop. My dog responded as the book says, he fought it initially then finally gave up. I can now hold my fingers in his mouth indefinitely. I went to the next step with a bumper giving the take command and pinching his ear when he drops it. I've done this for two days and both days have been pretty much the same thing, he won't open his mouth when I give it to him and say "take" so I have to force it in. He'll typically hold it for a while but as soon as he drops it or I knock it out, and begin pinching his ear, he somewhat shuts down. He will not accept the dummy and I have to force it in his mouth and he immediately drops it. It's almost like he's saying "if your going to make it painful, i'm not even gonna play." He's collar conditioned and I was thinking of skipping the ear pinch and just using the collar instead. The book says to bring in the collar after the ear pinch. Any ideas?

[snips]

I think they mean to introduce the ecollar after they understand what you want with ear-pinch....Which yours dog does not. You should open your dogs mouth, place (I find a dumbell easier to hold than dummy) your object in. I place thumb under chin and two fingers on each side of nose to teach Hold. When they stop complaining, then just tap up under chin so they do not drop. Do short holds, say Give and praise. I stroke their head when they relax holding it. Try to make each hold successful til dog understands what you want. I am not a fan of ecollar for FF, esp for someone that is doing their first dog....Can really mess your dog up.

[gonehuntin']

Sounds to me like you're in a rush and have missed a bunch of steps.

Start by pinching his jowls. Say FETCH, pinch the jowls, place the dowel in his mouth and command hold. Not until when you touch his jowls and he pops his mouth open are you ready for the ear.

Don't pinch the ear between your thumb and finger, pinch it on the buckle of the collar or something else hard. At first, don't make him reach for it. When he opens his mouth, place the dowel in it. Don't ever make him scream, just whimper. A dog can't work under extreme pain.

Now, when he's doing that, start moving the dowel ahead an inch or so at a time. At this stage he should whimper and pull you to the dowel.. Now work him walking at heel holding the roller or dowel. When he drops it, pinch his ear, say "No, Hold" and place it back in his mouth. When you can heel him around the yard without him dropping it, begin working him from a stationary position to the ground.

Go down only and inch or so at a time. When you finally get to the ground, never just drop a dowel on the ground. I use a buck so it supports the center and the dog can pick it up easier. Start him picking up straight down, then gradually work him until he'll pick up several feet from you.

I proceed to the stick fetch next and finally to the collar. You're trying to skip too many steps.

[tatraxle]

I'm really not in a rush. I'm only on the second step of the Dobbs Trained Retrieve method. I'm still on the first command "hold" or "take" in my situation. I haven't even thought about "fetch". I will do shorter reps with more praise. I think your right Brenda, he doesn't know what I'm asking him to do and the negative reinforcement is not teaching him. Does pinching the jowls make them open their mouth? I should pinch the jowls when he drops the dummy?

[birddogger]

[quote="tatraxle"]I'm really not in a rush. I'm only on the second step of the Dobbs Trained Retrieve method. I'm still on the first command "hold" or "take" in my situation. I haven't even thought about "fetch". I will do shorter reps with more praise. I think your right Brenda, he doesn't know what I'm asking him to do and the negative reinforcement is not teaching him. Does pinching the jowls make them open their mouth? I should pinch the jowls when he drops the dummy?[/qu

Tatraxle, your question was already answered by gonehutin. I have been on the forum long enough to know that the two previous replies with advise are from people who are pros. I would take the advise of either one of these two. I have never FF a dog yet, but I think I am going to do it with my young one. I imagine that the first time will be frustrating and there may be a few mistakes made in the beginning. Anyway, hang in there and good luck to you and your dog.

Charllie

[gonehuntin']

I'm really not in a rush. I'm only on the second step of the Dobbs Trained Retrieve method. I'm still on the first command "hold" or "take" in my situation. I haven't even thought about "fetch". I will do shorter reps with more praise. I think your right Brenda, he doesn't know what I'm asking him to do and the negative reinforcement is not teaching him. Does pinching the jowls make them open their mouth? I should pinch the jowls when he drops the dummy?

Yes, you pinch the jowls first, pinching the upper jowls against the canine teeth. That causes the dog pain and forces him to open his jaws. You say "fetch" as you do this. This is the dog's first contact with the word "fetch". The "fetch and hold" commands are really taught together. You command "fetch" and pinch the jowls to get him to open his mouth, then "hold" to get him to hold the buck.

Don't go to slow; the faster you can get a dog in and out of fetch, the happier the dog will be. Don't cease his regular training. Work on obedience and his staunchness at point at the same time.

Don't let him retrieve any of the birds you're cc'ing him on during force. If he spits them out, you'll set your force program back.

[snips]

Different ways of doing it, I do not pinch jowls, just open their mouth and place it it. Each way works. I only do Hold a day or two then start ear pinch and work Hold in with ear pinch, seems to work just as well as doing hold first and takes less time.

[R-Middleton]

After he will hold your fingers, put a 1 inch dowel in his mouth, don't say anything, make him hold it by holding his mouth shut on the dowel. When he will start to hold it a little, take hold of his ear, if he starts to drop it apply a "slight" amount of pressure and place it back in his mouth and relieve the pressure. Don't say the command until he starts to hold it with the ear pinch. Apply a little pressure and place it in his mouth. Continue this until he starts to open his mouth a little.
FF is much more complicated then you may think, two days is not near long enough to expect the dog to learn anything. If you know someone that has FF a lot of dogs, have them help you.
Most of the dogs that I work with, someone has tried to FF and failed. It makes it much more difficult.

Ray

[Saltriver]

whatever method that you use, the most important idea that you need to keep in mind with ff is patience, patience patience. baby steps is all that you are after! i include lots of praise when the object is in their mouth!

[kninebirddog]

I am more along the lines of middetons way Sharon potter has Trained retreive seminars it is a very methodical method... snips and gonehuntin and middleton also know what they are doing
I will start with my hands and do not give any commands until the dog is holding and beginning to open the mouths themselves. I do not want a word to be associated with a unknown reaction..so I do break that down
Once I have the dog holding items hand dowel water bottle etc then i will begin to apply pressure as stated once the pressure causes the dogs mouth to open the dowel is ut in and pressure is stopped so the dog learns the dowel is what turns the pressure off when they begin to reach for the dowel to turn off the pressure then i will add the word
Short sessions let the dog sit on a chain gang so they can let the session soak in has been the most effective way for me

Best thing is to learn the method before experimenting

[Georgia Boy]

When I FF i prefer to concentrate on that and nothing else , maybe incorporate a little basic obedience in your "fun time" after the session. If I remember right the Dobbs method was intended for labs. The process is the same for all dogs, but not all of them will respond in the same manner. You may have to adjust your tactics to work around some issues you may have with a particular dog, especially some of your softer breeds. This is where experience comes in. There are just so many variables involved that books just don't go into.

[gonehuntin']

When I FF i prefer to concentrate on that and nothing else , maybe incorporate a little basic obedience in your "fun time" after the session. If I remember right the Dobbs method was intended for labs. The process is the same for all dogs, but not all of them will respond in the same manner. You may have to adjust your tactics to work around some issues you may have with a particular dog, especially some of your softer breeds. This is where experience comes in. There are just so many variables involved that books just don't go into.

That is an excellent post.

[birddogger]

This is good stuff, I love it.

Charlile

[tatraxle]

My dog is definitely a "softer" dog. I backed up today and did a short session with the glove again, and he has no problem keeping it in his mouth without a fuss. I then concentrated on putting the dummy in his mouth, let him hold it for a few seconds and gave the "give" command. I praised him every time, and I could actually see him responding to this praise by taking the dummy when I gave it to him. He continued to "take" and "give" until I let him drop it after holding for a while, I pinched his ear mildly, and placed the dummy back in his mouth. He accepted it, but it's obvious that he responds better to positive reinforcement than he does negative. I can see it's going to have to be a pretty delicate and timely process. Thanks for all of the advice. It's a little overwhelming when I look at all of the different styles and methods people use for ff. I am using Dobbs just because I have a friend who used it successfully. Is there a particular ff method ideal for softer breeds such as the Griffon.

[kninebirddog]

if you take FF in very small steps and do not gop to the nest step until the dog has each step down any of the methodical methods will help bring up a soft dog or lay down parameters for a hard headed dog. Many soft dogs will surprise people as long as the process is precise and fair.

I took Sharon Potters trained retrieve seminar and there was a soft wash out pointer being FF that dog made great strides over the weekend

[snips]

If you have not used the ear pinch yet to force him to take it then pinching his ear to just put it back in his mouth means nothing to him. After I have pinched his ear to force the fetch command then I will use ear pinch if they drop it to replace it....

[gonehuntin']

I can see it's going to have to be a pretty delicate and timely process. .

My guess is, the pooch has your number. Force is about force. They call it force for a reason. You are MAKINGry
a dog perform a command against it's will. At the stage you're at, there's little difference between a soft dog and a tough dog. The truly soft dog always responds better to the pressure than the tough dog. The difficult one is the soft, stubborn dog. That'll try anyone's patience.

If that dog is truly soft, when he understands what the ear pinch is, you won't be able to hold him from grabbing it.

Dobbs really knows his stuff and has force broken hundreds and hundreds of dogs. He was Rex Carr's yard man for years in Escalon. I worked in Escalon at the same time at a different kennel and got to know him slightly. He's a good dog man and you won't go wrong following his advice to a T. Pick one method or program and stick to it.

[GSPoindexter]

Do you eventually switch to dead Quail/game on the force fetch? My boy will fetch balls and kongs to hand but as soon as I bring out a dead bird he wont touch it.

[gonehuntin']

Do you eventually switch to dead Quail/game on the force fetch? My boy will fetch balls and kongs to hand but as soon as I bring out a dead bird he wont touch it.

That is the final step of ff, to force on the birds he'll be hunting. That's the final purpose of it.