Undoing the damage from poor-flying birds

[Perdigueiros]

I'm looking for suggestions for undoing the damage I've done by training (and hunt testing) on poor flying bobwhites. In a nutshell, my dogs have realized that they can get in on these birds, bump 'em, and eventually run 'em down - and they find it preferable to do that before I get there and try to spoil their fun! One dog in particular knows she should be pointing but won't until she is on top of the bird or whoa'd to a stop (because it's too ugly to call a point!). She'll stand there through the shot and heel away afterwards so she knows whoa. She has just quit connecting it with doing it on her own.

Suggestions?

[Sharon]

Start over.

Hard flying pigeons they can't catch...

It will take longer for them to learn they can't catch the bird then it would have as a pup.

[Neil]

Whoa her sooner, as soon as you know she has caught scent, she will learn, and whatever style she had will come back.

As for the other, gently whoa train him, and do the same.

I am not a big fan of launchers, but they might help here.

Nearly all single course trial dogs and all hunting test dogs have to overcome this, you are not alone, it is just part of it,

Neil

[Grange]

I am going through the same issue. My english setter pup is 14 months old and last fall she was reliably steady to flush because of wild ruffed grouse. This winter I have been training with pen raised quail. Well with one week span she caught three birds. The first one was an extra bird in a small thicket while we were training. The second one got out while I was putting the birds in the pen and when I went to grab the bird it flew in to a tree limb at dusk. The last bird got out of the recall cage and flew into the garage. That day of the last catch she wouldn't point and had to be whoa'd on a bird. I put her away quickly as I figured no good could come the rest of the day.

To deal with this issue I went back to the basics. I used a check cord and a pigeon in a bird launcher. I was intending to pop at first scent. I lead her toward the bird with the check cord. She pointed at scent. I did two sessions this way and as of this past Saturday, the second session, my pup was pointing at first scent. The real test will be with quail, but I'm hoping I can get her on wild birds soon and if that happens I won't be worried about not pointing quail.

[Perdigueiros]

Thanks, all, for the advice. Yes, I've got launchers but one of my dogs (the smarter and more willful one!) will blink them now. I had received mixed opinions as to whether or not to actually whoa her when she winded the bird or - assuming she would work into a launcher - pop the bird up and whoa her afterwards, if necessary, as she now knows if a bird gets up, she probably messed up. Looks like the consensus here is that it's fine to whoa her into a point and hopefully she'll get back to doing it on her own.

[gonehuntin']

Are the dog's collar dogs?

[Perdigueiros]

Are the dog's collar dogs?

Do you mean have they all been trained with e-collars? One has... the "willful" one!

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Gentlemen,
Here is the way we fix other hunters dogs at Pine Creek Grouse Dog Trainers, we train on wild Grouse, running the dog until the dog figures out he can not catch the bird, the dog then locks on point, we then use several launch cages to finish the job. We start and finish our own dogs in this manner also. If you do not have the wild Grouse and forest to train in, use the launch cages properly, with full grown Huns or Chukars.
RGD/Dave

[Neil]

Gave some more thought to the matter. I am assuming you want to continue in HT/FTs, so they must learn pen birds.

When they do it absolutely right, kill some birds, at first don't let them retrieve, bring the bird back to them. This will help with steadiness and style, it allows them to figure out why you want them to stay steady, which to a dog must be a pretty strange concept.

Think about it, they learn you want the bird, they know they can catch it, why should they stand there and watch it fly off?

Now in all training timing is very important, learn to read the dog and whoa them when they first detect scent. The problem the old timers have with this is style suffers, but we have found with barrel work and time, it will most often come back.

Neil

[Perdigueiros]

Yes we definitely want to continue with HTs/FTs so pen-raised birds will never be totally out of the picture. But I know now that it's better to just pick up my dog and forego the entry fee rather than spend 15 minutes doing some serious training damage.

Sounds like the key here now is using birds - pigeon, chukar, don't have access to wild grouse - that are 100% uncatchable as well as knowing it's ok to remind the dog with a verbal whoas that she needs to stop immediately on scent. These are easily do-able pieces of advice so thank you, all.

As for shooting a bird, yep, that makes sense as I was thinking that it must be pretty frustrating (hence her desire for delayed chase) when she works a bird, it's flushed, I fire, then she has to just heel away with praise. I wan't sure if the birdwork and praise afterwards was enough so maybe the event needs to be completed for her, as it were, at least sometimes.