Training 2 dogs to work as a team

[quailrunner]

I have 2 female french britts (sisters) that are 11 wks. I would like to know yours thoughts, hopefully based on experienced, about training them to work as a team while hunting quail. They are both very intelligent, the honoring instincts are already there. I see it when they "pin" our "house dog" in a corner, one pup will be about 4-5 ft away and the other 4-5 ft behind the first. Anyways, I want a "Dan and Ann" from the movie "where the red fern grows" only in a bird dog version. Your thoughts?????

[RayGubernat]

quailrunner -

"Where the Red Fern Grows"... what a wonderful story. I read the story just a year or so back, for about the fourth time. It still brought a lump to my throat and tears to my eyes.

Anyway, on to your question. I have hunted my dogs in a brace many times on preserves and WMA's with stcoked birds. occasionally in the past on wild birds as well. It seemed that the vast majority of the times, the dogs settled into roles(after and itnital period of sorting out who is in charge and they both found that the answer was as usual...ME).

Anyhow, one dog typically was long and another was short in the field which most often worked to trap any birds between them. Interestingly, on different days, the dog that was the long dog the day before might well become the short dog. Occasionally, but not too often, during the hunt, they would trade roles as the situation or terrain changed.

Best thing you can do is train them separately, especially in the field, so they each develop a full complement of skills and their full measure of independence and self confidence. This way, when you hunt them together, you will have two A dogs, not an A and a B dog and if one gets dinged up and needs a rest, you still have a dog that can hunt with full effectiveness by itself.

I remember a mother/son combo I had many years ago. The momma was definitely the A dog and sonny always gave her the front row every single time on every single thing. it was kind of comical, because Cindy was about 35-40#, short and squatty and Rip was about 70#, big, tall and blocky and every once in a while she would put Rip on his back, just to remind him of where he was in the grand order of things.

When Cndy passed, Rip stepped into the A dog role and never missed a beat.

RayG

[AzDoggin]

Best thing you can do is train them separately, especially in the field, so they each develop a full complement of skills and their full measure of independence and self confidence.

Ray nailed it. All training is separate. You could "chaingang" one while you work with the other in yardwork. You have to socialize them to get them to key on you, not on each other, since they'll be spending so much "nonhunting" time together.

Those are beautiful pups - I'm strongly considering going for one next spring. What kennel are they out of?

There are a few "multiple Britt" owners around - hopefully we'll hear from them too. Shadow? ThreeBritts? MasonRidgeBritts? KnineBirdogs? What say you?

[ACooper]

Not only should you train them separately but in my opinion I would crate/kennel them separately and spend time with each one separately. Then also allow some together play time. You can allow more together time once they are older.

[quailrunner]

Can you explain why you say to do all their training separately?

[AzDoggin]

Can you explain why you say to do all their training separately?

You want the pup learning from birds and his/her trainer, not from the other pup. I would guess that is the reason most of the training books recommend against training two pups at once.

That said, I'm sure there are folks who have successfully trained two pups simultaneously, and the breeders/trainers (pros) do it all the time.

My understanding of those French Britts is that they are so biddable and need so little direction that the trainers job is halfway done with genetics.

The approach mentioned by ACoooper is consistent with the one used by Ed Frawley at Leerburg.com with his protection dogs. Ed wants his dogs to rely COMPLETELY on the owner, and never on other dogs in particular throughout that first 18 months or so. I am sure there have been lots of bird dog littermates trained sucessfully without going to such extreme measures. It's just that the training is challenging enough without the added distraction of having a littermate present. That's why you'll likely be most successful training them one at a time.

Ben O. Williams has a book about training Britts, and he hunts with a pack of them all the time. You might want to check his book out.

Those are cool dogs. Have fun!

[jimbo&rooster]

Im in a different boat than you are, I am training my 3yo lab and my 6mo GSP to hunt together, my lab as a non slip retriever and my GSP as a traditional pointing dog. I do 90% of the training seperate because these two dogs live together and Play together constantly. when i take them in the field if they aren't finding birds the two of them have a tendancy to get bored and a$$ around. I believe this is why folks are saying to train them separately. also if you do all of the dogs training together then if one of the dogs is a stronger hunter then the other dog will possibly form a "me too" mentality. I have seen this many time in hounds that are run in packs. I wont agree that you have to do all of your training separately but you will want to train each dog to be a complete hunter rather than to train a pair of dogs that need one another to have a successful hunt.
JIm

[RayGubernat]

quailrunner -

The reason why you train separately is to make certain that each dog develops its full measure of independence and drive. It also allows you as a trainer to focus on each dog and work with the indivudual dog without the inevitable distractions from the second dog in the mix. You want the dogs to lern what you want...from you...not what they want from each other.

As previously mentioned, it is absolutely fine, and quite productive actually, to have one dog on a stakeout, or chain, watching intently and waiting their trun while you train the other.

Just like the younger child in the family, the second dog on the training line will almost always pick things up faster, because they have already seen it and they know what to expect from you and what you expect frm them.

Think about this...If each dog is willing and able to wo a first class job of hunting FOR YOU on its own... when you put them down together, how much better are they going to hunt FOR YOU . The answer is...probably quite a bit better.

I have no experience with the French Britt, but if they are anything like American Britts, each will treasure the one on one time they will have with you. They will develop their individual personalities to a greater degree and their bond with you will be stronger.

They will both be better dogs in many different ways, if you treat them as individuals. if you try to gang train them, you will short change both the dogs and yourself. Believe it.

RayG

[fishvik]

I want a "Dan and Ann" from the movie "where the red fern grows" only in a bird dog version.

Wilson Rawls the author of Where the Red Fern Grows lived here in Idaho Falls when he wrote the book and in front of our public library is a bronze statue of Billy, Dan and Anne. Anybody who has ever hunted with dogs of any kind loved this book and they are a liar if they tell you they didn't tear up at the ending.

[quailrunner]

RayG, and everyone else, thanks for your replies. RayG I understand what you are saying and the reasoning behind it, and I agree with you on all your points as they relate to all the other dogs that belong to the pointing breeds. I wouldn't even consider trying to team train american brits, or the gsp, setters, or what have you. But, the french brit is different I believe..if you talk to most of the breeders they will tell you that you just have to train for basic yard work, and that the field work is already there and the instinct to hunt with someone or possibly with another dog is there also, in other words- they are NOT an independent hunter. Of course I will work individually with each dog, but like you said, it can be beneficial for the second dog to see and learn from the first dogs training.
What I am looking for is training methods for this type of scenario: Dog "A" points a covey of 12 scalies (Blue Quail) for you texans, 10 birds take off running, 2 birds stay behind ready to flush the minute dog "A" moves, but dog "A" doesn't move because it's been trained not to. Dog "B" is honoring Dog "A's" point about 25-30 yards away. Dog "A" knows the birds have moved so why can't Dog "A" give some sort of signal to the hunter so that Dog "B" can be used to cut off the running covey. The sire of these two pups has been known to circle running quail and pin them, so why couldn't I teach both of these dogs of mine to do the same sort of thing only that I would use the honoring dog to do the circling?

[RayGubernat]

Quailrunner -

I believe you may be giving my use of the word "independent" the wrong spin.
I'll put it another way.

I am suggesting that separate training will allow teach dog to develop to its full potential and you will have two dogs whose hunting ability, desire and drive to find birds will not differ when each is hunted alone.

As far as not needing training, just exposure, i have heard those kinds of claims about severl different breeds of dogs over the years. All I can say about that is, it all depends on what kind of hunting performance you are satisfied with. Bird dogs ar born with a huge reservior of talent and abilities. The natural talent, with routine exposre to hunting may well be a very satisfactory level of performance for some. However, to achieve a higher level of performance, you simply have to train for it. There is no other way.

Dogs are pack animls. They WILL work together. That is almost never a problem. Getting the dogs to operate independetly(there's that word again!) of each other takes training. in the example you cited, if the dogs were trained to respond to their names and a command...independent of each other...it is quite possible to have one dog hold point and pull the other dog off the back and send it forward to execute the cutoff. If you called out and both dogs moved, you got nothin'.

Once the dogs know and understand what you want them to do, they will start to use their senses to evaluate a situation and relocate as necessary. Agan using your example, you have trained them to relocate on command and then you have allowed the birds and their actions to essentially give the command directly to the dog.

The individual, independent training has given the dogs a framework within which to operate. You have shown them what you want them to do.

You have then stepped back and allowed the birds to dictate how the dogs need to work. That is the best of all possible worllds because it is between the birds and the dogs and dogs are far, far better at figuring out how to get a bird pointed than we are.

RayG

[ezzy333]

Quailrunner,

The main difference between the French Brit and the American Brit is how long they have been here. When I started with Brits there were several French dogs in their pedigreeback a couple of generations. What is called a French Brit today is a Brit with French dogs in the pedigree a couple of generations back. ANd some time in the future someone will decide to import a brit from France and they will call it a French Brit.

My point is they are all Brits that come from the same place and they all have the same general characteristics except we have been able to breed a few desirable characteristics into the dogs that have been here longer. But there is not a Breed whether Brit or not that is advanced much more than any other breed and they all require exposure and training to perform as you want them to. I think everyone has given you good advice that has been learned from experience. Littermates alway perform better if they are seperated as pups and are tained individually and then you can put them back together and do whatever you want to try and teach them. But you have to get them to that point individually. Just the way it works no matter what the breed and no matter what someone has tried to tell you about a breed that is different than all the rest.

JMO

Ezzy

[AzDoggin]

Out of curiosity, I just googled "raising two pups." You can do the same easily. Here are the first few articles that came up.

I include these not to illustrate that raising littermates together can't be done.

Moreso it's so you can move forward with open eyes. Contrary to our intuition, the time devoted to two pups will be DOUBLE, not half presuming you want to train them. The trainer has to counteract the "dogginess" the pups gain from being together since birth.

http://www.caninedevelopment.com/Sibling.htm

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=2043

http://www.uvhs.org/behavioral_docs/double_trouble.pdf

http://www.topdogclub.com/training/Buyi ... d-You.html

[Shadow]

well AZ- since you asked-

quailrunner- I'd say you are seeing something in those two 11 week old females- you should continue- there's nothing quite like having a young pair that show they like being together- don't necessarily think you have to seperate them- keep them together you might just have an unbeatable pair- think of it as- you have a pair that are catching on- already show they have the desire, and backing- someone says they got a good dog- would they run it with your two-

I'm going to get chewed on here- I'd continue as you are- as long as you see they are coming along as you like I'd not break them up- real young now- if you see some problems developing adjust- but those two together could make each other great- I've seen it- one can definately help the other-

[AzDoggin]

'bout time you came along, Shadow!

This discussion needs some balance from folks who've raised littermates and made it work, since there's so much out there on the other side of the equation.

[ACooper]

"The second best solution is to do everything in your power to create two individual dogs. They must be allowed, no, REQUIRED, to have their own space, to develop their own personalities, and to look to the owner for bonding and love. They must have lots and lots of “only dog” time.

1. Crate them separately (preferably in separate rooms or at opposite ends of a room.)

2. Feed them separately.

3. Walk them separately.

4. Play with them separately.

5. Take them to the vets separately.

6. Train them separately.

7. TRAIN them! Take them to a good obedience class where the instructor knows how to work with littermates. Take them on separate nights. Do NOT take them to the same class.



They can play together, but I cannot stress the importance of these separation procedures enough. Keeping the siblings together at all times will create two parts of a whole, not two individuals. 9 out of 10 cases that I see show some signs of littermate syndrome."


This says it all in my opinion. I raised litter mate GSPs together ONCE, kenneled together etc. I will not make the same mistake twice.

[quailrunner]

Shadow that's exactly my way of thinking. I am not blind, I can read a dog, and I can make adjustments as required. I work at home, I've got training birds, I've got lots of time to spend with the dogs. I've hunted southwestern quail for nearly 40 years, I can find the birds, and New Mexico has millions of acres of public land to hunt on. I want some dogs that will hunt for me not me for them.
I appreciate everyone's comments, I was really trying to get more positive insights, but negative is good too, because I can learn from both.
I remember when I had my miniature horses and started a breeding program with about 10 mares and 2 stallions. Well the top trainer in the country was telling a friend of mine how stupid I was to have chosen the mares that I did. Well 4 years later I was doing the laughing when my foals were the National Champions.
When people tell me I can't or shouldn't do something, I look for ways to prove them wrong.

[ezzy333]

Shadow that's exactly my way of thinking. I am not blind, I can read a dog, and I can make adjustments as required. I work at home, I've got training birds, I've got lots of time to spend with the dogs. I've hunted southwestern quail for nearly 40 years, I can find the birds, and New Mexico has millions of acres of public land to hunt on. I want some dogs that will hunt for me not me for them.
I appreciate everyone's comments, I was really trying to get more positive insights, but negative is good too, because I can learn from both.
I remember when I had my miniature horses and started a breeding program with about 10 mares and 2 stallions. Well the top trainer in the country was telling a friend of mine how stupid I was to have chosen the mares that I did. Well 4 years later I was doing the laughing when my foals were the National Champions.
When people tell me I can't or shouldn't do something, I look for ways to prove them wrong.

Of course you are free to do what you want with your pups. But you did ask for comments. People gave you the best advice they could based on their experiences. I was one of those people. But let me relate some facts and I'll let it go as I am sure you will do what you want with them. The people who train seeing-eye dogs have put out a lot of info over the years. Our 4-H kids got involved raising pups for them as they needed homes for each puppy till they got old enough to train. In their work they found that two litter mate pups raised together never resulted in both pups qualifying for finished dogs and seldom did either one qualify. The pups just couldn't relate to people well enough to do the job. Not only did they need to be split up and out of the kennel but it had to be done by the twelve week and preferably by the tenth week.

I always found that rather interesting but being together just didn't allow them to fully mature into people oriented trainable dogs. Even two that were not litter mates did not do well together but it was a little better then the litter mates.

I have found much the same thing when training our sporting dogs but the results are not quite as critical as it is with any of the service dogs. Take it for what it is worth and good luck.

Ezzy

[texscala]

Congrats on your FBs. I love mine to death. While I agree with the comments that FBs have a lot of natural ability and mature quickly I also think there are a lot of positives to training dogs individually. Even today when we run 2 or more dogs I like to see each dog take an area and not overlap too much. I plan on adding another dog to the mix in a year or two when my pup is 4 or 5 and hope to them always have two dogs, a young one and a pro.

Good luck with your pups and have fun with them.

here is mine a few weeks ago pointing a nice big male blue grouse.



Also if you let them get out and explore when they are young you will be surprised at the run they might end up with. Out here chasing birds on the mountains mine is usually a couple hundred yards out. Without a beeper or tracking collar I would never find her on point.

[quailrunner]

Ezzy, Actually I asked for comments on training two dogs to work as a team, not the comments I got about "litter-mate syndrome". I guess I should have left my pups relationship to each other out of the picture and just asked for people's comments and insights about running 2 or more dogs together. I was looking for examples of how people have trained their dogs to work together to pin a covey of running quail. I know that individual dogs can get very good at this and that with lots of experience a few of them will figure things out. In one of the books I have read, the author shows and tells how to train a dog to circle using cables. He shows a pheasant harnessed to a cable so the bird will only run in a straight line, say from one bush to another. He also shows the dog on a cable and uses tire rims to arc the cable around the area so the dog can end up cutting off the bird. This is the only example i have found for training for the scenario so I still would like to know if there is anyone on GDF that has come up with better ways or how they have adapted.

[Shadow]

ahhhhhhhhh what can I say- kept these two out of my litter born in July- brother and sister-

only thing I did was to let them grow up together- course all 4 of these get along, sleep together, eat together, travel together, play together, run together, hunt together-
did find out I liked hunting the girl with that big male, and the boy with that female- we only had pheasants down here so that was the game

I wouldn't say they hunt the same or follow- both pretty much eat up country

don't laugh now- I don't really train- have a few things to work on though

there is something I've usually done with two dogs- if birds are moving whoa one and release the other- sometimes you see a youngster really nail that whoa- so you can work the other one to learn to move arround and come in from a different angle- starting out don't shoot and really pay attention to the one that is whoad so it learns to really stay put- might have to pick that one up and reset a few times- keep working on that till it's down pat- then try it with the other one- sometimes both catch on- sometimes you can only count on one- both learn from each other- when it works it's priceless

[GrayDawg]

I trained a mother/daughter pair of Weimaraners years ago. The mother (Aja) was pretty much broke by the time her daughter (Josie) came along. I took great care to develop Josie on her own before expecting her to work with Aja. Both dogs were hard driving versatile hunters- but I did have one problem that I never really could get straightened out to my satisfaction........ Aja wouldn't back her daughter. Josie would back her mom, but Aja wouldn't honor Josie's points- she'd blink the back and go hunt in another direction. Aja would never steal point or bust the bird, she'd simply evade the situation altogether. Other than that- I could have them both down together and they would both hunt hard & handle kindly.

Take the time to develop each pup on their own first.

Rob

[Shadow]

I like a youngster learning from an adult also

[AzDoggin]

I have 2 female french britts (sisters) that are 11 wks...Anyways, I want a "Dan and Ann" from the movie "where the red fern grows" only in a bird dog version. Your thoughts?????

This was your question, quailrunner. My thought was to train Ann and Ann seperately, that's all. Gave you some information. No intent to offend you.

I'm jealous of your dogs, the time you have to train them, and all that country you have access to. Heck, I'd like to drive over sometime and hunt behind those good looking pups. I have every confidence you'll make good hunters out of 'em. I hope you'll keep us posted on their progress...more pics are nice, too!

[RayGubernat]

quailruner -

About four years ago i had a litter. I wound up keeping four pups until they we ten months old because I was not sure which two dogs I wanted to keep. They slept in kennels in pairs and roughhoused and exercised together in the yard. However, I did all my training with each dog individually while the others watched(on a chain gang). They came along nicely.

Fast forward about a year....down to two dogs from the original four. Both are steady to wing and shot, both will hunt just the way I want them to alone and both will hunt together like the brother and sister they are... fully cooperative but with an edge of competitiveness.

They are in separate kennels, but they still exercise, play and roughhouse in the yard together with Mom and Pop.

It depends on what you want. There is no one right way. I just told you what worked for me.

RayG

[quailrunner]

Hey guys and that means everyone who has posted to this thread, thank you for your suggestions and concerns about my 2 FB's. I assure you that the individual one on one time that each pup is receiveing and will continue to receive will be second to none. I really appreciate the posts like the one graydawg posted, and shadow, because they show me different things to not only watch out for when hunting a pair but also how rewarding it can be watching the dogwork. I enjoy all the stories, please keep them coming. Thanks

[Shadow]

two are a handfull I'll admit- still think you know what you are doing- if your two youngsters are anything like my little female it should be easy and pure joy

rooster walked by while I was inside- so I snuck arround the corner trying to get a good picture-
I'd like to feel these are willing to do teamwork

[quailrunner]

Texscala, that's a fine looking FB, the French say the FB is " the most bird dog in the smallest package" your's sure proves them right.

Shadow, anyone would be proud to own your dogs. They are beautiful, makes me miss "Chevy" my hunting partner for 9 years even more.

[Shadow]

thanks- house dogs- my pals-

I have to be caefull when I open the gate- they're sort of still in hunting mode

[AzDoggin]

Don't know whether y'all saw this other thread - but here's a gent training two lab littermates and making it work...

Report this postReply with quoteRe: Dog doesn't want to retrieve...
by LEGLIFTER » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:07 pm

My dogs have an over abundance of desire to retrieve. I wish I could transfer some to your pup.

I have two litter mates that have a competitive streak amongst them that creates problems of its own but I think could this information used judiciously could be helpful. I recently put my dogs on live pigeons for the first time. When Lola saw me throw the bird she was on it like a bumper. No hesitation at all. Later, I planted a bird for her. When she found it she was excited but would not pick up the fleeing bird so after a while I let her brother Poncho out of the box who ran over and picked it up immediately. She no longer hesitates. I don't know but another animal on the line might bring out the competitive streak in her if she has one.

[Shadow]

sort of did the same thing with my 2 pups- both were used to 22 sounds- female was a bit timid-
dove season came- I took the adults and sat 50 yards away- pups were excited- couple doves came in- I shot one- and looked to see both pups watching while the dove was being retrieved-

So- with the 22 I tossed the dove and shot- both pups ran up to it- bit hesisitant at first- one grabbed and took off- other just sat- so I repeated it 2 times with just the male-

female was excited- so with just her I did the same- she charged and grabbed the dove and brouth it to me- well- she came flying by- took a bit of time but she did bring it to me

good enough- so again I went and sat and got three more doves- next morning I took just the pups- shot a dove pups charged and while both tried to retrieve- there was a bit of scuffle and run- but soon one brought the dove to me- I tossed it for the other- pretty decent job of going, picking up, and bringing to me

sometimes what one pup sees the other do makes for a great willingness to do the same

some call it the chain gang- you put two or three up- and allow one to show how it's done while the others watch- it can be very effective

[AzDoggin]

sometimes what one pup sees the other do makes for a great willingness to do the same

some call it the chain gang- you put two or three up- and allow one to show how it's done while the others watch- it can be very effective

That was the approach I was trying to describe but you did a better job of describing WITH EXAMPLES.

[Shadow]

chuckling here- you should have seen what it was like when I got the tennis ball- that bouncing ball had all three chasing- most every time my big male got it and would prance back with both pups trying for it

but- a pup would get it sometimes- and boy- proud as all get out would bring it to me- if I hold two and let any of the others go- nice retrieve

now- I have to throw three

interesting thing the first time pheasant hunting- two pups with my male- found it was a bit too much- so the female was the best to hunt with him- the male with my female-
have a bit of work to do if I want to hunt them all together- they all want the bird- but plenty of time till the season starts

[quailrunner]

Good examples shadow. I think if a guy really wants to train two pups at once he just has to use his head to figure out what or who to use to get the idea conveyed to the pup. For example. One of my pups already kennels on command willingly, the other was always refusing to go in unless "nudged", so I moved the kennels next to each other, gave the command to the willing pup, she went in, and then the second pup went in her kennel much easier. We are still working on this.
Another example: The pup that kennels willingly absolutely hated the chain-gang idea, when I put her on it she just laid down and sulked. Both pups have been running around for about a week with a short checkcord, but if I put any pressure on the checkcord she just lays down. So, yesterday I tied both pups checkcords together, I can't say that she didn't want to lay down, but she sure did start to get the idea that "hey, this isn't so bad". So, this morning I planted 3 pigeons with rubber-banded flight feathers, carried the pup about 25 yards from where the bird was planted (not in the scent cone) slowly, with only slight pressure brought her into the scent cone, and bam! 2 second Point! then she moves in and the bird flies, now she's tugging on the checkcord so I hold for about 5 seconds and the let go, and she chases the bird, catches it, I let her mouth it a bit, then take the bird and put it up. Second bird and I am able to lead her to the area, she is now working with the checkcord, I can change her directions easily and she is eager to find more birds. No point on the second bird but I can tell when she gets into the scent cone, bird takes off, pup is in hot pursuit, bird flies out of the fenced area we are in. Third bird now she really is working well on the checkcord, no more sulking, no more fighting it, she has accepted it as a good thing, another 2 second point then the chase and catch, I put the bird up, and walk the pup with the checkcord back to the yard where her litter-mate is and that's it, what a change in attitude towards a checkcord!!!!!!!

[snips]

You should get better points if pup does not catch the birds...Does not hurt to catch one occasionally, but it's better not to think they can catch them all the time. As for training 2 dogs as a team, I am all about separate work and training. To get a good team of dogs working together can take years, but is great to watch. Biggest thing I see with youngsters is them being competitive..They may start out pointing and holding and backing on their own, but like most kids, they WILL start being competitive and at some point think to themselves "why am I standing here" and try to beat each other to the bird....And it all goes downhill....Soooo...Training individually until they are very reliable before putting together is how I do it. But when it is all in place and they run together it can be a show:)

[quailrunner]

I think they are competitive now at 12 weeks and have been for awhile. But I don't think it is a bad thing, it can be used and controlled. I do work with them separately on some things and then bring them together and work on it some more, other times I try something with them together first, then take them apart and work on it individually. The bird chasing and catching is one example. First time they were introduced to a bird (pigeon) i threw one bird for them and they both chased it around and caught it and got to get the smell as well as the taste of the bird, the competition to get the bird from the more bold pup pumped up the second slightly timid pup (this is only in the field, this second pup is more bold in the house, with people and other things). Today was the second time they got to chase and catch the bird, each pup had their own separate chance and the boldness was there, and you could tell that each pup felt they had power over the bird. Tomorrow (weather permitting) I will not "hobble" the pigeons and the pups will get a chance to find and chase the birds but not catch them. I could give other examples also.

[ACooper]

I think they are competitive now at 12 weeks and have been for awhile. But I don't think it is a bad thing, it can be used and controlled. I do work with them separately on some things and then bring them together and work on it some more, other times I try something with them together first, then take them apart and work on it individually. The bird chasing and catching is one example. First time they were introduced to a bird (pigeon) i threw one bird for them and they both chased it around and caught it and got to get the smell as well as the taste of the bird, the competition to get the bird from the more bold pup pumped up the second slightly timid pup (this is only in the field, this second pup is more bold in the house, with people and other things). Today was the second time they got to chase and catch the bird, each pup had their own separate chance and the boldness was there, and you could tell that each pup felt they had power over the bird. Tomorrow (weather permitting) I will not "hobble" the pigeons and the pups will get a chance to find and chase the birds but not catch them. I could give other examples also.

Are you letting the pups catch the birds on purpose?

[Shadow]

I like the way you put that Brenda-

my two hunt together ok- one is real staunch on backing- one isn't quite there yet- so for me it was best to split them up and run each with an experienced adult-
competition- yes- wanting to be ahead of the other pup on point yes- covering the field no- each ran different-

so the young girl hunting with my male was great- she'd see him run by, not follow, but when she'd see him on point she's freeze from a long distance, downed bird she wouldn't try to get it from him

young male- best to run him with my female- why- because he ran bigger- thus he was usually on point- she would come up and back him- he'd back her 70% of the time-

young female backed him, he really didn't back her- competition- he wanted to be in front- so instead of jeapordizing her point and back I didn't hunt them togher but a couple times-

figure it won't take too much and I'll be able to count on both of them doing well regardless of who is in front

retrieving- there definately is competition- something I need to work on if I'm going to hunt them together

[quailrunner]

yes I intentionally let them catch and get dominion over the first 3-4 birds they are introduced to, not gamebirds, pigeons only. Catching wounded birds will be one of their jobs in life. You ever seen a scaled quail doing about 30mph, hit with #6 shot, hit the dirt, bounce 4ft high in a puff of feathers and keep on runnin'? Happens a lot around here.

[ACooper]

I have seen plenty of quail (blues and bobs) and pheasants hit the ground running. I was just curious, everyone has there own training methods, mine happens to include not letting pups catch birds. But to each there own, there are a million ways to train dogs, no need to get defensive.

[quailrunner]

Sorry,I didn't mean to sound defensive, it's just the way I write I guess. Anyways, I didn't let my last dog catch the birds either. And he was terrible at retrieving wounded birds. He would retrieve dead birds to hand, but if the bird was floppin' around he would pick it up, carry it about 5 feet in my direction (just enough to show me he had the bird) then drop it. I didn't know much about FF, so he lived out his life doing this. So, I'm trying something a little (or a lot) different with these pups.

[AzDoggin]

I had always heard that you want to stoke a pups prey drive by getting him a bird or two, then once formal training begins never let them catch'em.

One thing that is obvious from all the dog training books and the discussions on this forum is that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Here is an excerpt from a Bill Gibbons article:

One of the biggest things, I feel, when you're starting out a young puppy, is to let him catch a bird, He needs to know he's got power over that bird. That bird isn't going to hurt him. Now there's some dogs that are so birdy and so bold that it doesn't matter, but there's some of them that will come up to a bird and stand there trying to decide. "Now, I know I like the smell of this thing, but is it going to get me or what?" Well, once he finally chases that bird down and catches him, then he knows, "I like the smell of this thing and I can get him."

Once he does that, then he starts to come along. I've had dogs that would go a month and a half sometimes and then catch that bird. And from then on that dog just came on. It wasn't that he didn't like birds, he just had been scared. Anytime you do something with a dog and something bad happens, you need to try right then, or as soon as you can, to get dog to where he gets over it-not let it become a monster

Link: http://www.higginsgundogs.com/MagicManA ... ibbons.htm

[quailrunner]

This guy is training 24 pups at once, The translation from french to english of the video title is: Patrick Morin conduit la meute de 24 chiots épagneuls bretons de Keranlouan au doigt, à l'oeil et ... au sifflet ! Patrick Morin drives the pack of hounds of 24 épagneuls Breton pups of Keranlouan in the finger, in the eye and in the whistle!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPoXfI_m ... re=related
also check out the video of the guy giving an interview with 15 french brits honoring. Pretty Cool!!

[AzDoggin]

That video is HILARIOUS. 24 pups, all about the same age - what's that - 4 litters? Man that's alot of EB $$$ running around in that field.