Clicker to E-collar

[labman626]

What is the easiest way to go from the clicker to e-collar? I know Hickox does it but how do some of you do it?

[Sharon]

It would appear he doesn't transition to the e-collar but uses the two tools for two different purposes.

http://www.americanhunter.org/ArticlePa ... 426&cid=50

http://www.clickandtreat.com/

[gonehuntin']

I personally don't like the clicker and don't think it's sound training. Too "bleep" noisy to!

[Sharon]

I took a clicker course once with a pup. I did find it to be very fun and effective with a pup. The major Guide Dog Training School in Canada uses clicker training with their young dogs.

[Ruffshooter]

What is the purpose of the Clicker?
Is it not an unneeded step?
Also an added thing to put in your trainig bag or belt?

Hard telling not knowing.

[Sharon]

"Clicker training" is an animal training method based on behavioral psychology that relies on marking desirable behavior and rewarding it." quote


“If behavior is reinforced, it increases,” Hickox


It's just another tool for working with a pup - not another step, just a different tool. You would teach a pup to wait at the door your way and someone else would teach it with a clicker. I never used it in field work . The good thing about it is that you say nothing and all responses are positive. You know how how we like to teach with too many words if we are not careful.
With Guide Dogs , the disabled person can easily carry it in their pouch and give praise when warranted. Even someone who can't speak can manage the dog effectively.

http://www.clickertraining.com/what_is_clicker_training

[Tall Boy]

From my limited understanding you get the dog to associate the clicker with something good like hot dog pieces. Eventually you can remove the hot dogs, and the clicker itself is the reward/praise. It's all positive reinforcemnt, everytime the dog does what you want you -click-, the idea is that the dog will begin activley seeking the -click-. The main principle being that there are few mixed signals beacuse the clicking is the same sound everytime, and it's instantaneous.

[slistoe]

They are rather opposites so transitioning from one to the other would be impossible. You would need to use them in tandem.

[Tall Boy]

Not impossible, you would just have to look at the collar as a physical cue, rather than a correction to a command.

[slistoe]

So you are thinking that the stimulus from the collar can be perceived by the dog as a positive reinforcement for offering proper behaviors.

I can certainly see using the tone on the collar for the same effect as the click and that would give you the option to use both positive and negative stimuli in the same tool - but isn't that what the collar manufacturers had in mind when they designed the tone and the instructions for use?

[Tall Boy]

I see what you mean, the clicker isn't so much a cue as it is a reward. I was referring to trainers using the vibrate function as a cue, some even turn a nick into a command also. The tone would be more along the lines of the clicker. IMO good ol' fashioned yard work and a proper Alpha-Beta relationship will trump all this clicker stuff anyday.

[labman626]

I see everyones point, but somehow George Hickox does it. Does anyone know how he does it?

[tn red]

Have you watched Great Beginings ?

[wems2371]

I know this gundog trainer uses clickers for some things, as he was one of the many speakers at Pheasant Fest this year. They actually handed out free clickers during the seminar. I don't know how or if he works it into the e-collar, but here's his website with contact info.
http://willowcreekkennels.net/index.html

I inadvertantly taught a clicker type command, without even realizing it. As my older shorthair was learning to heel, I should say knew how to heel, but was testing me off leash...I would snap my fingers if she got to creeping too far in front, out of heel position. It was enough to get her attention, and has worked pretty well for her. If I had time and more willingness to learn new tricks, I think I would try it out.

[dough]

From my limited understanding you get the dog to associate the clicker with something good like hot dog pieces. Eventually you can remove the hot dogs, and the clicker itself is the reward/praise. It's all positive reinforcemnt, everytime the dog does what you want you -click-, the idea is that the dog will begin activley seeking the -click-. The main principle being that there are few mixed signals beacuse the clicking is the same sound everytime, and it's instantaneous.

Not only is it instantaneous - but just like a nick on an electronic collar, it can be instantaneously timed. So the click that is associated with reward can be precisely timed during the training process. It is a fantastic method of training for puppies - you can train very young puppies with this method with no pressure. Another situation that I have used clicker training is training a new dog that I don't have any experience with. As my dogs got older, I transitioned to traditional gundog training - including the electronic collar. So at the age my dogs are at now, I not using the clicker - but I'm hanging on to it for my next puppy, or if I need to train a new dog.

Doug

[Chukar12]

The clicker shapes behavior early on with no pressure. The question of transitioning to the collar is valid and complicated; because its a different stage. Trainers like George Hickox believe and understand that a "hot dog: reward is of little significance when bird work ensues. George would say directly if you throw a hot dog and a flopping quail twenty feet in front of your dog and the dog chooses hot dog...get a new dog. Hickox starts collar training with the avoidance method, in other words the dog leans in a simple scenario with a simple command such as getting in the crate. When very, very low stimulation is applied to a dog he/she learns that going in the crate it turns stimulation the off . I would read his advice on how to tell when a dog feels stimulation and the details of avoidance. How did it leran to go in the crate? The reward of a clicker and a hot dog applied timely when the dog gave you the behavior you wanted.

For sake of argument, think of clickers as ONLY a yard training tool. Sit is the easiest example... a dog that gets his butt pushed down and hears the command sit enough times will learn to sit, initially they will resist and their complinace will be a matter of winning the battle of wills. With a clicker the dog will recognize its behavior gets a reward and sit happily, alert and ready for more interactions and lessons from you. Overlay the command "sit" and you have comlpiance with a great attitude... fast forward to a point where any of these learned behaviors, (go with us, come to us, and stand up and stand still) require discipline and you use the collar to make a correcetion to a well established and learned behavior... and generally with way less pressure. No yelping dogs that challenge the voltage of your collar.

The best information is on George Hickox' web site and or that of Gary Wilkes an all breed and function dog trainer that is the guru. As always, there is more than one way to skin a cat...this one isn't traditional in the gun dog world but i do not believe it is an unneccesary step, if you are looking for an extra edge in training a perfomance dog it is an extremely valuable tool.

[kumate]

Tall Boy, if you did not reward the power of the click would fade. When dogs are conditioned to the marker/click they do usually illicite a responce, it is a yea i did something right and the reward comes without fail everytime. No reward and the power of the marker extinguishes, kind of like pavlov and the ringing of the dinner bell in elliciting the salivary responce in anticipation of eating. The bell came to illicit just as strong a responce as the meal itself, but only because the meal followed the bell everytime. I think i was conditioned similary. I am a nurse and every night when passing medications, i get very hungry towards the end of the pass. This one nice old gent would have a reece cup for me upon opening the door and taking his meds, he was reliable. A few nights ago i was starved and "bleep" near salivating anticipating that "bleep" reece cup, he opened the door and i almost reahed for it and he said sorry i ran out of chocalte. It was so funny although he didnt realize just how he trained me for that reece cup LOL

Jerry

[Chukar12]

You purposely do not reward at every click once a command has been overlayed and your behaviors are rock solid. This helps to keep the dog interested, the clicker simply becomes immediate notification that the dog has done something correctly just as a collar shows that it is incorrect. It bridges the communication gap between humans and dogs.

The difference between operant conditioning (clicker training) and what is described as Pavlovian is what makes the training work...The dog presents a behavior and then is notified it is correct and is rewarded. The behavior is pro-active it gives the dog confidence that it can create a positive outcome with you. A pavlovian response is reactive, something in an environment causes an uncontrolled action such as drooling...or reaching for chocolate.

[kumate]

After the behavior is solid, the click is no longer needed and you do not have to reward everytime. Although bob bailey is very big on cont rewards. How you choose to schedule rewards is a subject of debate, but with the exception of a few, most versed clicker trainers follow all clicks with a reward if you want to maintain the effectiveness of the click. Operant conditioning has 4 quads and purist clicker trainers do not use all of them, The pavlov stuff was classicle conditioning. Clicker training is a fun no stress way to teach a dog behaviors, but nomatter what you call it i think a dog learns from his pos and neg experiences and needs both to be a well rounded dog

Jerry

[jiml]

I can certainly see using the tone on the collar for the same effect as the click and that would give you the option to use both positive and negative stimuli in the same tool - but isn't that what the collar manufacturers had in mind when they designed the tone and the instructions for use?>>>>>>


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05EDolAE ... 5wG8v8dFeM

[gonehuntin']

Clickers, like "good dog" tones on collars irritate the heck out of me and I, personally, consider neither sound training.

I want to be the "clicker" and tell the dog "good dog" when he does correctly, a negative command when he doesn't.

So much today we are trying to remove human contact from the dog's life; the clicker, tones and vibrations on ecollars, the ecollar itself.

Now, I too, am a huge advocate of the ecollar, but I'll put on my PF Fliers and get out there and mix it up with them once in a while too. I hate seeing human to dog interaction fade as mechanical interaction increases. Too "bleep" old I guess.

[Chukar12]

...so by not sound Gone Huntin'...you mean it doesn't work?

[gonehuntin']

...so by not sound Gone Huntin'...you mean it doesn't work?

It works for pups and "parlor dogs", not for hunting dogs. When I say "not sound", I mean it takes too much human interaction away from the dog, just like the good dog tone on the ecollar.

[Chukar12]

I suppose fundamentally I agree with the first half of that as hunting dogs do start as pups. It does not however, create any disconnect with the human quite the opposite. It creates an instant cause and effect link in training without the confusion of a human's voice or the apprehension created by coercion; therfore, we can take younger less mature dogs and introduce behaviors in formative days, weeks and months early on.

I was skeptical, hound guys aren't by nature the sensitive type and my early associations with training were from them. When I became passionate about pointing dogs I have used my time to explore methods and when possible have paid for face to face training with experienced folks. The pros that I know using clicker training are above reproach as trainers in the pointing dog world. They didn't start out as clicker trainers and they haven't abandoned the belief that eventually (with most capable dogs) the fur is going to fly, but they are open minded enough and committed enough to pursue the best methods possible.

I believe that the early training; call it puppy work if you like is paramount in shaping behaviors that makes "breaking" or finishing a dog later on less frustrating. If more amateurs are successful in early obedience and control they will enjoy their gun dogs more and be far more successful later. This keeps people in the sport and helps protect the heritage. Not every method will work for everybody and I am not here to judge or discourage anyone who is enthused about proven methodology.

[gonehuntin']

For clicker advocates, just what do you feel the difference is between clicking for proper behavior and treating, and simply telling the dog "good" and treating?

[Chukar12]

For most of us our voices carry inconsistencies and baggage that is confusing to dogs. The inflection and change of tone of a single spokenword changes dramatically depending on our mood. A clicker is a distinct sound that has no human emotion to it. Most importantly is timing, a clicker in your hand can almost immediately notify the dog it is correct. U.S. Military canine behavior studies tell us this notification is best if is provided in less than 1.3 seconds after that a dog gets confused about whch behavior was the right one. A clicker has only one meaning and purpose in a dog's life, while our voices and the word "good" may be spoken casually all day, every day.

[kumate]

IMHO they are the same, both are marking a moment in time and rewarding for whatever behavior preceded the mark verbal or click. There are arguments for both some say that they like using their voice as they always have it with them. Some swear by the click as it is consistant the same each and every time. I use both when using voice i say yes, but conceed that the click is more consistant. I use good as a intermediate bridge word that whatever they are doing is correct and they on the right track. The yes or click would be the terminal bridge that bridges the time that the correct behavior occured and the time when reinforcement (food ball treats etc) are delivered. Here is a site that has quite a few free vid clips not a gundog site but michael ellis is a very talented trainer some of his clips on puppy development using food markers etc are interesting and they are free

http://leerburg.com/stream/videolistcat.php?cat=Michael Ellis

Jerry

[Sharon]

For clicker advocates, just what do you feel the difference is between clicking for proper behavior and treating, and simply telling the dog "good" and treating?

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/319

[dan v]

I have a question for those that are opposed to clicker training.

How do the trainers at Sea World work with those animals? Really, are you planning on wading into the Orca tank and assume alpha status? Really?

Strap an e collar on and have at it?

Now all that said, do I use the clicker? Nope. Should I have it as a tool in the "bag o'tricks"? I think so. Will I? Doubt it.

[jiml]

For clicker advocates, just what do you feel the difference is between clicking for proper behavior and treating, and simply telling the dog "good" and treating?>>>>


can be more precise w timing. I find it works well w trick training. If your into that

[AzDoggin]

Well, I'm a dog training advocate, not a "clicker training" advocate, but here's an example of a lady teaching a mutt to retrieve using a clicker:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oFO9Z0oHBA

Here's part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iahx2OGI ... re=related

Watch this guy use the clicker on his lab pup:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJP9QCXhL1k

Clicker training is just another tool, and since it's zero pressure, you can start conditioning pups very young.

FYI, the top Schutzhund competitors in the world (e.g., Ivan Balabanov) use "marker training" (verbal signals rather than a clicker) to train Malinois and GSD's to do all sorts of very complicated stuff. The difference in the attitude and style of the dogs in clicker training is unbelievable. The dogs love to train, their heads are high, tails high, they are just into it.

Most of winning agility trainers are using "marker" or clicker training.

Marker training will definitely be front and center in the training of my next bird dog.

heck, if folks can teach Orca the Killer Whale to do amazing tricks with a clicker, I'd guess it'll work with all sorts of land creatures. It's just well timed communication and reward, with eventual fading of both to a maintenance schedule.

I'm glad to see this topic made it over to GDF. It's all over the Leerburg.com discussion board because it's used so much in training personal protection dogs, that compulsion-heavy methods create problems with.

[nitrex]

I see everyones point, but somehow George Hickox does it. Does anyone know how he does it?

Labman,

Check your pm box.

Nitrex

[Tall Boy]

[quote="Wyndancer
Now all that said, do I use the clicker? Nope. Should I have it as a tool in the "bag o'tricks"? I think so. Will I? Doubt it.[/quote]


Right there with ya on that one!