Training Methods

[proudag08]

Ok, so I have settled on a breed, a breeder, and now I need to research training methods/ tools.

I want to approach this like I did when choosing a breed of dog. With the dog breed I first made a list of all the possible dog breeds avaialabe and narrowed them down by popularity/ track record/ how well they meshed with what I wanted/ availability/ price... etc.

So, with that being said, I would like to start compliling my list of methods. Obvious ones that I have seen on here are the "Perfect Start Perfect Finish" and the "Huntsmith Puppy DVD's". If you dont mind, what method did/ do you use and why? I as my list starts to grow I will do some research and see which ones fit me best. If you used something different when your dog was a pup than you did when it was older please let me know that as well.

~For example~
Training method used (puppy):
Why:
Training method used (not puppy):
Why:
Books used in training:
DVD's used in training:
What I liked about it:
What I didn't like about it:
How/ If you would change it looking back:

As always... thank you all so much for your help!!!!

[Coveyrise64]

I thought your breeder was going to help (mentor or whatever) with the training. I think that would be a better program if possible, you'll get to see and do more that way than any video or book you might read. Also, the money saved on books/videos could be put towards training birds.

Or, go attend the NAVHDA training days (heaven forbid). Teaching you to train your dog is what they are mostly about. Normally, they have the equipment necessary, training birds available for purchase, and experienced people to help you train your dog from start to finish.

Coveyrise64

[proudag08]

I thought your breeder was going to help (mentor or whatever) with the training. I think that would be a better program if possible, you'll get to see and do more that way than any video or book you might read. Also, the money saved on books/videos could be put towards training birds.

Or, go attend the NAVHDA training days (heaven forbid). Teaching you to train your dog is what they are mostly about. Normally, they have the equipment necessary, training birds available for purchase, and experienced people to help you train your dog from start to finish.

Coveyrise64

I'm pretty sure he is I just want some things to supplement that while at home and away from the training grounds.

[kninebirddog]

When you first begin Pick A Method and stick with it. Yes by all means research them then pick out the one that makes the most sense to YOU.

For me I prefer the Rick Smith Method it is the easiest one for me to get people to understand I also have some twist of west in what I do BUT until I had one method down enough I didn't go switching to this and that method as switching or jumping midstream will only confuse you and your dog...I did stuff as one dog understood something better one way versus the other..SO there is not one method that will literally cover all dogs just as there just isn't one way to get people either everyone is different..

That is why I prefer hands on type methods as books just can't teach you how to read a dog Things like when a dog is resisting when they are beginning to accept when something is to fast and you need to back up a bit.

So again the key is which Method YOU can understand and where YOU will remain the most consistent with.

And PS Books that have time lines are some of the best books to make frustrated owners and confused dogs because a dog might not be ready for the next step and well the book says>>>>>>>>

Training is Quality of time not quantity I would rather have a 10 minute great session then an hour of confusion and frustration

The Smaller you can make steps for the dog when starting a process and ending on good notes the faster and more u a dog will stay during training...

Some stuff is boring and we all want to play with a finished product...This is where most people get in to big trouble just because a dog did something right a time or two doesn't make it learned...repeat until it become habit..Keep it fun when they are young so it doesn't become boring and a dog looses interest and style..This is where I like to do the boring yard work so when it does come to field time I am working birds with direction, not training to teach manners and cues at the same time working birds then the field and birds become just training which take a lot out of a dog specially when one doesn't have timing down


Good Luck and keep on researching and learning

If you can afford it You really can't beat a seminar for some real good hands on learning where some of those dvds make sense..Here again I suggest Rick Smith or though I haven't had the pleasure of sitting on one I have watched Maurice Lindley AKA Mo he also has a nice approach to dogs...And PS take the pup though the seminar is for you to learn pups and dogs learn quite a bit also

[tommyboy72]

Or you could always teach basic commands like "here" and "whoa", e collar condition the dog, overlay the whistle with the "come" command, gunproof the dog and then work the heck out of the dog on wild birds like I do and let them figure it out for themselves and develop their own hunting style. Instead of teaching a "style" you let them learn on their own and develop their own style.

[Redfishkilla]

"That is why I prefer hands on type methods as books just can't teach you how to read a dog"

That's it. I think training is 90% reading the dog, the other 10% is knowing how to do the correction. Here's my two cents. Read as many books as you can before you get the dog. And also remember, you don't do a lot of training before the dog is ready....usually 5 or 6 months, sometimes later I hear. You don't want to put an e-collar on a 12 week old and start yelling "Whoa".

Oh I thought of a funny one. Since you're such a proud ag, you should train your dog to stop or whoa on "Whoop". That would be classic, hunting with your buddies and yelling "whoop" instead of "whoa". Heck, I'd laugh at that.

I know you're looking for some reading material more than a training method. Training a well bred dog is easy if you don't make any huge mistakes and have the resources ie birds. When they're old enough, teach Heel, Whoa or Whoop, and Here. After that you just have to convey that you want the dog to point the birds rather than bust them. Pigeons in a launcher are huge at this point. I was lucky enough to launch pigeons for my newest pup all spring when she was barely 3 months old. She started pointing them with steadiness after about 10 birds. I never launched more than 2 birds a training trip. If they figure it out too quick then what do you have to do? Training is the fun part and I enjoyed training my young one. Took my time. And Tommyboy's right about letting them figure it out, I didn't think there was any other way. There's only so much you can do before you just need to go hunt wild birds.

I know what you could occupy your time with, finding a wild quail, dove, pheasant and duck hunting lease. Living in the Big-D you might think about woodcock in East Texas. You’re going to want to get your dog on WILD birds as soon as you can. I wish I was waiting on my next pup rather than a kid. She’s 8.5 months but I’m planning on quail hunting Saturday, got my fingers crossed he stays in there for another week at least.

Also, get to the skeet field. You owe that to your little huntin' buddy.

[cuwader]

I'm just getting started with my first birddog, so I don't have a lot of hands-on experience to pass down to you. I will humbly submit to the list of methods the Bill West method - specifically Maurice Lindley's version. You can research Bill West, Bill Gibbons, and Maurice to learn about their school of thought. The basis of the method is to allow the birds to teach your dog what to do. That way it doesn't matter what situation the dog finds itself in (or how far away or slow to catch up you are) it knows what to do. And if it messes up it doesn't get the bird (which is reinforcement).

This is a great low/no pressure way to train dogs. No yelling, no beating, no repeated high-level shock therapy (although the ecollar is necessary and used well). Perfect for problem dogs, sensitive dogs (Vizslas like mine), and rescues.

Martha Greenlee wrote an excellent and concise book about maurice's methods. You can get Training with Mo here: http://www.gladerunpress.com/ That's the only place you can get it

Also, for anyone else who lives closer, Maurice opens his place up on Saturdays for people to come work dogs and learn from him. I suggest taking up his generous offer. I'm there every chance i get. (He's in Piedmont, SC, BTW)

[4dabirds]

I would first recommend a book by Gene Donaldson , Culture Cash. This book is not a hunting dog manual, it is an explanation of how dogs think. If you read this book first it can give you an idea of what program will work best for you. It is important to understand the behavior of the animal you are trying to train to make a decision on why one program is better than the other . Video programs do not give enough info to really understand the full crux of training a hunting dog. I went to 2 Hickox seminars . the info you get in four days can not be replicated in a couple of hours of video. Geoge charges $950.00 for 4 days. I think rick and ronnie smith charge $450 for the basic then each seminar as you progress to higher levels get more expensive. Either way you go to seminar take what they taught you learn from your mistakes and go back to learn more. If you can afford this it is best to stick with seasoned pros with great track records. I know George will take your questions by e-mail and help you along the way once you have done a seminar.

[ezzy333]

No yelling, no beating, no repeated high-level shock therapy

I just don't recall this being part of anybody's training methods that I have read.

Ezzy

[kninebirddog]

No yelling, no beating, no repeated high-level shock therapy

I just don't recall this being part of anybody's training methods that I have read.

Ezzy

Sure isn't The Rick Smith's Method either...He instills teaching a dog from Points of contact for future e collar use he does this in yard work work at building the foundation so the dogs know what Cue and commands are to be applied in the field When needed
he also is very quiet thus way they call it The Silent command as his method doesn't labeling any thing until a dog is doing it in a calm confident manner then he will add the verbal command.

[ezzy333]

No yelling, no beating, no repeated high-level shock therapy

I just don't recall this being part of anybody's training methods that I have read.

Ezzy

Sure isn't The Rick Smith's Method either...He instills teaching a dog from Points of contact for future e collar use he does this in yard work work at building the foundation so the dogs know what Cue and commands are to be applied in the field When needed
he also is very quiet thus way they call it The Silent command as his method doesn't labeling any thing until a dog is doing it in a calm confident manner then he will add the verbal command.

Only problem I have with that is the command is the cue. I always use the dogs name and then the command.. Seems like that is the only cue the dog needs.

Ezzy

[proudag08]

Ok well let me revise my question then...

If you could go back and read any three books before you got your puppy or new gun dog, what would it be (title and auther if you have it). Thanks!

[kninebirddog]

If you have to be limited to books instead of joining a training group or a seminar of any kind getting hands on learning as reading a dog will get one further then reading a book with that said
I would have to say Training with Mo is the best one on the market right now.

[proudag08]

Maybe I have been unclear...

I plan on joining clubs, going to training days, maybe a seminar, watching DVD's, reading books, in addition to and to supplement the hands on training. I have chosen a breeder that is willing to help me as needed (although I dont know if he knews what he has signed up for ).

I am just looking for some things to research/ start reading so when I get my pup (in 6 months or more) I will have a head start...

[kbshorthairs]

This, like most questions posed online, will receive quite a variety of answers. One common thread I notice, is consistency is of utmost importance. If you have decided on an advisor/mentor/trainer....you might ask that person what method they use. It will be important that you don't start down a different road or have to undo something you've started. For example, most pointing dog people do not teach their dog to sit since it can create issues that have to be corrected in the future.
The videos you mentioned are probably the highest rated......but it seems apparent to me that you would like to busy yourself and consume as much information as possible in preparation for getting that puppy. Contrary to what some might tell you.......there is not ONE absolute right way to teach a dog. Continue on your academic pursuit. Consume information. Ask questions. Spend time with dogs and dog people that are successful. Formulate a plan that combines the best of what you have observed and will work for your situation. Individuality is often lacking in mass produced products. People that want to sell books and dvds have to dilute their message somewhat to appeal to the masses. The give good tips, but reading Delmar Smith's method is not going to make you Delmar Smith.
I encourage you to secure permission to hunt or train your puppy on grounds in addition to the ground your trainer has promised. That will probably be the most difficult hill to climb since you live in a metro area.
One last observation I will mention. It appears to me, that your excitement level is pegged on the redline. It is fun for me to see someone catch the bug. I do not want to rain on your parade, but I would like to advise a bit of calm. Training dogs is a bit like raising children. You can read all the books in the world, but it is no substitute for actually getting your hands dirty and doing it. No dog is perfect. No trainer or method is perfect. Prepare yourself for a SLOW undertaking. Take a deep breath and get ready for some fun.

[kninebirddog]

Ok

Smiths puppy DVDs number 1 is good The second also has good info but is more geared towards the person that has good bird areas to get a pup contact on

Mo has that new book out which I wish Rick and Ronnie would do the same with their method as Mo has done with his Martha did an excellent job at making more an on field manual then just a book

Maurice also has a DVD which again is more like the seminar then just seminar reminders.

When you go and watch and get hands on..keep the mind open see how a dog is with their handler/owners as many can teach you what not to do which sometimes can be just as if not more important as what to do

But again as you read and watch pick A method when you begin working with your pup learn it and grow from there

and kbshorthairs post is spot on also

[Cajun Casey]

Ok well let me revise my question then...

If you could go back and read any three books before you got your puppy or new gun dog, what would it be (title and auther if you have it). Thanks!

The Best Way to Train Your Gun Dog: The Delmar Smith Method, by Bill Tarrant
The NAVHDA Green Book
Training the Versatile Hunting Dog, by Chuck Johnson

Honestly, I don't think good dog trainers read many books about training dogs. Anything Tarrant wrote, however, is worth reading just for the literary value.

[Onk]

I ordered " First Steps" by Ben Garcia of Hideaway Kennels on the advice of my breeder! http://www.hideawaykennels.com/ this is the sight if you are interested in it. It shows a video clip on the sight.

[nitrex]

When you first begin Pick A Method and stick with it. Yes by all means research them then pick out the one that makes the most sense to YOU.

I agree! Too many dogs get messed up because a person has no real end goal or program to get the dog to that level. I like the George Hickox videos, but they really are better if you can take your dog to a Hickox dog training school. Good luck!

Nitrex

[Cajun Casey]

Maybe I have been unclear...

I plan on joining clubs, going to training days, maybe a seminar, watching DVD's, reading books, in addition to and to supplement the hands on training. I have chosen a breeder that is willing to help me as needed (although I dont know if he knews what he has signed up for ).

I am just looking for some things to research/ start reading so when I get my pup (in 6 months or more) I will have a head start...

Are you planning on taking the pup hunting? Just letting him hit the ground and go, learning to explore and smell and see and hear all the things around him, whether or not there are birds?

[Winchey]

The give good tips, but reading Delmar Smith's method is not going to make you Delmar Smith.

Good point, I have done a ton of reading/studying but understanding the concepts and applying them well are totally different. It takes a lot of practice and hands on experience to get good at it, timing things right, being able to read the dog and reward and dicipline appropriately. Trainers need a ton of training themselves and it takes a lot of time. You can't just go out there with the dog on a cord and work it smoothly like a pro, you get awkward, nervous, fumble with commands etc... After training sessions it is just as important to evaluate yourself and how you performed as it is to evaluating the dog.

[proudag08]

After training sessions it is just as important to evaluate yourself and how you performed as it is to evaluating the dog.

+1 Now that sounds like some wisdom! Thanks!

[Greg Jennings]

Not saying it's the case here, but...

It's like having a bunch of books, DVDs, etc is harmful. That's because when we do, we want to try out the new tool or we try to train faster.

A dear friend told me: In dog training (mostly) less is more and (mostly) later is better than sooner.

In that vein...

Knowing when to be satisfied and call it a day is the most important tool in the box and that ain't in no DVD.

Please pardon the colloquial phraseology.

[proudag08]

Not saying it's the case here, but...

It's like having a bunch of books, DVDs, etc is harmful. That's because when we do, we want to try out the new tool or we try to train faster.

A dear friend told me: In dog training (mostly) less is more and (mostly) later is better than sooner.

In that vein...

Knowing when to be satisfied and call it a day is the most important tool in the box and that ain't in no DVD.

Please pardon the colloquial phraseology.

I can get behind that.

Thanks for the advice everyone. I think I'll limit myself to 2 books before the pup arrives. Sounds like I just need to hurry up and wait! Thanks again!

[Greg Jennings]

As mentioned earlier, I recommend the HuntSmith Puppy I and II DVDs. That covers a lot of ground. Even if you don't use one single specific thing that the Smith brothers show, the general attitude they they convey is worth the $.

BTW, I think you'd use a lot of the specifics, too. Just trying to make a point. Calm. Confident. Read the dog.

My granddad tried to tell me, but I didn't understand at the time. "Son, if you want to train a mule, you have to be smarter than the mule. If you get down on the mule's level, it doesnt' work because he's stronger and more stubborn than you are."

FWIW,

Greg J.

[Coveyrise64]

Maybe I have been unclear...

I plan on joining clubs, going to training days, maybe a seminar, watching DVD's, reading books, in addition to and to supplement the hands on training. I have chosen a breeder that is willing to help me as needed (although I dont know if he knews what he has signed up for ).

I am just looking for some things to research/ start reading so when I get my pup (in 6 months or more) I will have a head start...

Rather than investing a lot of time and money in reading material, get with the trainer you have selected and volunteer to help him. Just because you don't have a dog doesn't mean you can't be learning while you are waiting. Might even help in your relationship (with him) as well. Trainers seem to take a little more time with someone that shows a genuine interest.

Coveyrise64