E-COLLARS..TO USE OR NOT TO USE?

[GUNDOGS]

Its been a while since we had a bird dog pup around..with our GSP ruger we started using the tri-tronics ecollar when he was about 5 months and honestly hardly ever had to use it..we had 2 setters for training as well and they were about 7 months when we started them on the collar and had to use it often in the beginning..now we have a pup coming in 2 weeks and we have been debating if we should try more conventional ways of training before using the collar..does anyone train WITHOUT an ecollar and have you had success? what are some techniques we should try?..or do most of you just jump right to the collar?..not that im against them but just like to try new techniques that have worked for others..input is appreciated...thanks.....ruth

[RayGubernat]

Ruth -

I work with pointers...usually pretty hard charging ones. Most that I have worked with are pretty tough and resilient, but the last couple have been pretty soft, by pointer standards. A dog with a soft temperament requires gentle but firm hands and positive reinforment.

I do use an e-collar with my dogs...eventually.

However, ALL of my initial yardwork and field work is done with a checkcord and a flat collar.

I do make considerable use of a version of the Smith wonder lead, early on, and later make the transition to a prong collar for certain things. I do all my steadiness training with a checkcord and prong collar. The yardwork using rope leads and the prong collar provides point of contact training for the dog which, in my experience, transitions pretty seamlessly to the e-collar.

One of the first things I do are heel/whoa drills with a pigging string(poor man's version of the Smith wonder lead) after the manner of Paul Long. I eventually(after several months) extend these heel/whoa drills into whoa drills where I can lay down the string in front of the dog and walk in front, extending that whoa to the where I can conduct a simulated flush in front of the dog. I also use the checkcord and (if I can get a helper), use two checkcords to teach the pup to come. In the field when the pup is big enough to get into trouble, I clip a checkcord on it and let them drag it, both to slow down and tire the dog and to have a means of control within reach(most of the time).

I also do a LOT of styling with the dog from a very early age, both on the ground and on a narrow raised bench. I use many different raised surfaces to style the dog on, their coop a table, their feeder, a tailgate, whatever is available. I like to get my hands on a dog as often as I can when they are young.

Between the heel/whoa drill including the extended whoa exercises and the styling, I find that a dog will generally be very easy to steady to wing and shot at a comparatively young age.

However you go about training your new dog, I urge you to do it in an organized fashion. The quote you should repeat to yourself every time you want to go work with the pup is

"Plan your work, then go out and work your plan."

You should have a clear idea of what you wish to accomplish every single time you interact with your pup. You should consider what yu want to do, what tools you will need to have available, how to proceed, what could possibly go wrong and how you should react to that and last, but most important... to know...in advance...when you have accomplished what you set out to do. In other words you need to know when to quit before yo even start.

And YES you should always quit a winner.. . Especially when it comes to steadiness drills and birdwork, the dog does it right and then does it right again, you should quit rather than keeping on until the dog messes up.

If the last thing the dog remembers is doing it right...that will very likely be the first thing it does on the next straining session. That is the best way to keep moving forward.

RayG

[kninebirddog]

Some times.things are made to make training more precise and.easier for the dog and trainer.
As for me the e collar is an.extension. of the check cord to help maintain. Known commands

Try under google book a book called training in the twentieth century by Er M Shelley. That book there was written by one of the top trialer trainers back in the late 1800 sure puts proper use of any training aid in to perspective

[gonehuntin']

I've trained in the days before ecollars, and I train now. There is no comparison. It is so less frustrating to be able to use the ecollar. It is faster, better, more humane, safer, more precise. I would never go back to training without one.

[ezzy333]

I know a lot of us have trained with out one but have no idea what would promt anyone to not use the best tools available. Kind of like deciding to sell your car and use the good old horse and buggy. Both will get you ther but when and in what condition is questionable.

Ezzy

[RayGubernat]

Guys -

I actually find it easier, for me, to work with the pup using checkcords and the other tools I mentioned.

Once the dog is off the checkcord...the e-collar goes on during training, but by that time, the dog knows what I want it to do, pretty well anyway.

I usually work with one pup at a time, and it is my pup, so there is no pressure to get it done. I did work with four pups at one time(litter) and while it did take some serious time, it was not a killer and I got it done.

If I were more confident in my skills with the e-collar, I would probably use it earlier, but at this point, I see no real reason to take a chance on messing up a pup due to my own ineptitude.

RayG

[GUNDOGS]

Ruth -

I work with pointers...usually pretty hard charging ones. Most that I have worked with are pretty tough and resilient, but the last couple have been pretty soft, by pointer standards. A dog with a soft temperament requires gentle but firm hands and positive reinforment.

I do use an e-collar with my dogs...eventually.

However, ALL of my initial yardwork and field work is done with a checkcord and a flat collar.

I do make considerable use of a version of the Smith wonder lead, early on, and later make the transition to a prong collar for certain things. I do all my steadiness training with a checkcord and prong collar. The yardwork using rope leads and the prong collar provides point of contact training for the dog which, in my experience, transitions pretty seamlessly to the e-collar.

One of the first things I do are heel/whoa drills with a pigging string(poor man's version of the Smith wonder lead) after the manner of Paul Long. I eventually(after several months) extend these heel/whoa drills into whoa drills where I can lay down the string in front of the dog and walk in front, extending that whoa to the where I can conduct a simulated flush in front of the dog. I also use the checkcord and (if I can get a helper), use two checkcords to teach the pup to come. In the field when the pup is big enough to get into trouble, I clip a checkcord on it and let them drag it, both to slow down and tire the dog and to have a means of control within reach(most of the time).

I also do a LOT of styling with the dog from a very early age, both on the ground and on a narrow raised bench. I use many different raised surfaces to style the dog on, their coop a table, their feeder, a tailgate, whatever is available. I like to get my hands on a dog as often as I can when they are young.

Between the heel/whoa drill including the extended whoa exercises and the styling, I find that a dog will generally be very easy to steady to wing and shot at a comparatively young age.

However you go about training your new dog, I urge you to do it in an organized fashion. The quote you should repeat to yourself every time you want to go work with the pup is

"Plan your work, then go out and work your plan."

You should have a clear idea of what you wish to accomplish every single time you interact with your pup. You should consider what yu want to do, what tools you will need to have available, how to proceed, what could possibly go wrong and how you should react to that and last, but most important... to know...in advance...when you have accomplished what you set out to do. In other words you need to know when to quit before yo even start.

And YES you should always quit a winner.. . Especially when it comes to steadiness drills and birdwork, the dog does it right and then does it right again, you should quit rather than keeping on until the dog messes up.

If the last thing the dog remembers is doing it right...that will very likely be the first thing it does on the next straining session. That is the best way to keep moving forward.

RayG

Hi RAYG..thanks for all the info..you use alot of the same training styles we have praticed as well..i totally agree with planning your work and then go out and work your plan... as far as steadiness and style i have seen my husband put our dog on almost anything including a board on saw horses..we will definetley keep these in mind with the new pup..thanks..ruth

[BrittGSP818]

Gundogs, I have a 10 month old britt/gsp cross that I have yet to use an ecollar on. I am trying to train him without one and so far it has worked. I have been out hunting with him a few times and he does great but sometimes he gets distracted, could be his age. You have to make sure he is well behaved at home before taking him out.

George

[GUNDOGS]

Gundogs, I have a 10 month old britt/gsp cross that I have yet to use an ecollar on. I am trying to train him without one and so far it has worked. I have been out hunting with him a few times and he does great but sometimes he gets distracted, could be his age. You have to make sure he is well behaved at home before taking him out.

George

Thanks BrittGSP818..we want to try without it as well and wow if you havent had to use one at this point with your pup by 10months you probably wont need one..and even if you do it might be on occasion instead of everytime you hunt him..thats what we would like to try too..i think by the info ive received it really depends on the dog and what the trainer is comfortable with..i definitely do know that most important is to know how to properly use the collar..we were showed years ago in detail by a trainer..im not opposed totally to them but i do like to hear of people who dont need them so thanks....ruth

[ezzy333]

Ruth,

No one uses an e-colar everytime they hunt. Some of us put them on everytime for emergencies but they are seldom used. And you should not use one thill the pup is over 6 months or older. By not using one till the pup is 10 month old is pretty much on schedule for training purposes.

To set your mind at ease no one needs a collar, just as no one needs a check cord or a leash. But it sure improves what you can teach the pup and makes it a whole lot easier on both you and the pup. What I am hearing from you is you want to live without electricity in your home. You can do that but it makes no sense to me at least that you would live like that when the electric lines run right by your home.

I just don't understand when you say you want to train without one and yet you haven't said that about any of the other tools we have to make the job easier and better and you don't take that approach to the rest of your life.

Hope you enjoy the pup. Oh by the way, I would either drive or walk to Jersey to get it as I like to get my pups without using airplanes. Just the way I like to do it.

Ezzy

[GUNDOGS]

Ezzy, as i said in my original post i wanted info from people who train with or without them to get info about techniques they might use BEFORE introducing the collar or even from people who have not introduced them AT ALL also from people who use them and their reasons as well..i am very aware of the fact ALMOST everyone eventually uses them since its available and easier for control of the dog from far away (like an invisible checkcord or a long arm).. from what ive seen on many many occasions is the use of the collar is an automatic training tool and my husband and i have our ways of training beliefs which include the dog being taught commands before the collars is even considered..you dont have to understand it or even agree with it but its how we like to train..one of the guys we hunt with in ohio with has a 3 year old setter thats never had an ecollar on its neck and i was interested in that because it is pushed by so many people to use one..as i said im not opposed to the collar but my post was to see if anyone has had a positive training experience without using it and how long they went without needing it while training or even hunting!! obviously there are people such as BRITTGSP818 that have gone 10 months and as he said has also has had success in training without it so far....dont be confused..you are reading too much into the post..i just want to hear others thoughts..and as far as driving to jersey thats not where the pup is thats her name..she is in tennessee 11 hours from me and driving is not an option with 5 children and a business to run and ive never had a problem with shipping before..weve shipped to kansas and recieved from kansas without issue!!....no need to debate me for wanting info from others that do things differently.....ruth

[ezzy333]

Ruth,

My suggestion you drive was tongue in cheek, just a way of saying what you are thinking about an e-collar. It is exactly like me saying I don't believe in planes. I understand what you are saying but it seems to me that your premise is so very flawed. All of us over 50 have trained many dogs without using an e-collar it was the norm and the only reason we use it now is that it is available and we can do a better job with it than without. No one is saying it can't BE DONE WITHOUT ONE. We all did it.

Another thing that always comes to mind when I hear people say they don't want to use something like this. Who do you think invented it and why. Collars, launchers, or every other tool we use was invented by a pro who had an idea of a new tool that would aid him in his job. That not only means it made it easier for him but the product he turned out was better trained. They aren't the norm today simply because most people have more money than sense, even though that very possibly is true. They are there for us all to use because they work and are a better way than we used to do it. Kind of like having a pup shipped by plane instead of going to get it with the horse and buggy and with five girls in the back seat. People all used to do that till Henry Ford and the Wright Bros thought there just might be a better way. And you know what, there are still people sitting back and saying I just don't want to use those new fangled things and will stick to my horse and buggy. Just as there are people who think there is something special about not using the e-collar but have no qualms at all about using the CC or regular collar. Why do we pick out one tool to ignore and feel good about it. Is it because it just happens to be the best tool ever invented or is it because we think something we can't see like electricity is unfair. I think that is why many people won't fly is that they can't see air.

I am not needing an explanantion on your thinking but I am just reminising on my thoughts of what goes through peoples minds and what do they get out of their thoughts.

Ezzy

[BrittGSP818]

Ruth, I understand what you are saying, I think e collars are a great tool but harm our breeding in the long run. I use to use one on my previous dog (gsp) because of his stubborness. Most other countries don't use them and their dogs come out just great, if not better. This is due to breeding, here, if a dog is stubborn just take the easy route and slap on an e collar and make him into a champ, then breed him/her and produce pups that are similar. I am not saying this is true for all dogs but quite a few. We talk about biddability of a pup but truely how biddable is a dog when he is forced to do something in fear of a shock. I think true biddability should be measured when the pup does what you want without ever being e collar conditioned. Just MHO. I like a challenge, which is one of the reasons I picked a cross breed. He not only fits what I was looking for to a tee (look, color, size, and temperament) but he is a mix, and it is awsome showing the purebreed guys/gals he just as good if not better (nothing against you purebreed people). Also Ezzy, why don't you drive around in an atv until your dog goes on point and then get out to shoot the bird. Its not the same, just like hunting, many other things in life are much more exciting when battery powered "equipment" is not used I will let you think about that one. Just my opinion.

George

[ezzy333]

Ruth, I understand what you are saying, I think e collars are a great tool but harm our breeding in the long run. I use to use one on my previous dog (gsp) because of his stubborness. Most other countries don't use them and their dogs come out just great, if not better. This is due to breeding, here, if a dog is stubborn just take the easy route and slap on an e collar and make him into a champ, then breed him/her and produce pups that are similar. I am not saying this is true for all dogs but quite a few. We talk about biddability of a pup but truely how biddable is a dog when he is forced to do something in fear of a shock. I think true biddability should be measured when the pup does what you want without ever being e collar conditioned. Just MHO. I like a challenge, which is one of the reasons I picked a cross breed. He not only fits what I was looking for to a tee (look, color, size, and temperament) but he is a mix, and it is awsome showing the purebreed guys/gals he just as good if not better (nothing against you purebreed people). Also Ezzy, why don't you drive around in an atv until your dog goes on point and then get out to shoot the bird. Its not the same, just like hunting, many other things in life are much more exciting when battery powered "equipment" is not used I will let you think about that one. Just my opinion.

George

Some good points. I'm going to start breeding for compliance in my dogs and if they don't do what I want I no longer will slap on the that nice collar and attach that CC since I love a challenge and all it is doing is keeping my non compliance dog alive and well instead of running into the road or killing the neighbor's chickens when it wants. The only difference in yours and my training is you have drawn an imaginary line some where that says if something works too well I am not going to use it. Thank God you have that privilege but it doesn't mean you are a better trainer or that your dog is better trained. It just means you didn't use the best tools to get the job done. Some of your other points may have some validity but this isn't one of them.

Any way good luck, and it will work as we all have done it that way for many many years and I haven't seen any deterioration in our dogs bidability because we can have some control over the dog that is 100 feet from you rather than the twenty feet you have without the e-collar.

Ezzy

[BrittGSP818]

Some good points. I'm going to start breeding for compliance in my dogs and if they don't do what I want I no longer will slap on the that nice collar and attach that CC since I love a challenge and all it is doing is keeping my non compliance dog alive and well instead of running into the road or killing the neighbor's chickens when it wants. The only difference in yours and my training is you have drawn an imaginary line some where that says if something works too well I am not going to use it. Thank God you have that privilege but it doesn't mean you are a better trainer or that your dog is better trained. It just means you didn't use the best tools to get the job done. Some of your other points may have some validity but this isn't one of them.

Any way good luck, and it will work as we all have done it that way for many many years and I haven't seen any deterioration in our dogs bidability because we can have some control over the dog that is 100 feet from you rather than the twenty feet you have without the e-collar.

Ezzy[/quote]

Ezzy, no where in my post did I say I was a better trainer or that my dog is a better trained dog. I also didn't mention anything about my dogs range, which is not 20 feet. If your dogs are running into the streets, then put a fence around the yard, it worked for me . I have seen a britt hit hard with an e collar while he was chasing a bird and all he did was shake his head and kept on running. Don't know how he managed the pain but he was one tough dog.

[GUNDOGS]

Ruth, I understand what you are saying, I think e collars are a great tool but harm our breeding in the long run. I use to use one on my previous dog (gsp) because of his stubborness. Most other countries don't use them and their dogs come out just great, if not better. This is due to breeding, here, if a dog is stubborn just take the easy route and slap on an e collar and make him into a champ, then breed him/her and produce pups that are similar. I am not saying this is true for all dogs but quite a few. We talk about biddability of a pup but truely how biddable is a dog when he is forced to do something in fear of a shock. I think true biddability should be measured when the pup does what you want without ever being e collar conditioned. Just MHO. I like a challenge, which is one of the reasons I picked a cross breed. He not only fits what I was looking for to a tee (look, color, size, and temperament) but he is a mix, and it is awsome showing the purebreed guys/gals he just as good if not better (nothing against you purebreed people). Also Ezzy, why don't you drive around in an atv until your dog goes on point and then get out to shoot the bird. Its not the same, just like hunting, many other things in life are much more exciting when battery powered "equipment" is not used I will let you think about that one. Just my opinion.

George

Exactly my point George..I am not totally against ecollars just wanted to see others techniques without using one..the friend of ours in ohio doesnt use an ecollar simply because he wanted to try training without it and now doesnt use one at all..that as i said was interesting to me as it was one of the first things we purchased 8 years ago when we bought our shorthair since everyone told us we HAVE to have it if you are training a bird dog..over the years ive really only seen a HANDFULL of people NOT using them so thought id ask others to get info..so again thanks george i like getting input from others who sometimes do things different and have success at it...ruth

[brad27]

Ezzy, no where in my post did I say I was a better trainer or that my dog is a better trained dog.

I know i'm not Ezzy, but you implied it right here:

I think e collars are a great tool but harm our breeding in the long run. I use to use one on my previous dog (gsp) because of his stubborness. Most other countries don't use them and their dogs come out just great, if not better. This is due to breeding, here, if a dog is stubborn just take the easy route and slap on an e collar and make him into a champ, then breed him/her and produce pups that are similar. I am not saying this is true for all dogs but quite a few.

now, you didn't say YOUR dog was better, just dogs trained without the use of an ecollar.

[GUNDOGS]

Ezzy, i know you were being sarcastic regarding me shipping the dog instead of driving or walking i just didnt want to get into a conventional debate..i am only 38 years old so not so experienced or knowledgeable on many things..but one thing i will tell you since you commented that i DONT live the rest of my life this way is that in many ways i do..not to bore you or anyone else for that matter but after 1 daughter and an epideral for her birth i chose to have the other 4 natural, i prefer my fireplace over my furnace, i walk many days when my van is in the driveway, i use to roll my own cigarettes before i quit, i grow vegetables instead of buying them at the store(weather permitting) i put my dogs on the most natural dog food i could find, i make my own bread, have made homemade icecream and butter with my grandma and prefer it too, when we go camping we stay in bare bones cottages or a tent instead of a fifth wheel trailer and i even prefer to catch my own fish for supper and my husband brings the turkey home for thanksgiving !!..like i said ezzy just because modern technology makes life easier doesnt mean its ALWAYS my first choice although sometimes it may be..i am not saying i would never use an ecollar not did i ever imply anyone who does is wrong.. i asked for both sides actually because i am not the kind of person that thinks MY WAY is the ONLY WAY!!....ruth

[northern cajun]

Ruth -


However you go about training your new dog, I urge you to do it in an organized fashion. The quote you should repeat to yourself every time you want to go work with the pup is

"Plan your work, then go out and work your plan."

I agree.

[kninebirddog]

Gundogs
No matter how a person trains Foundation is primary

I prefer to have the e collar so when a dog elects to not do what the training habits we tried to build they can be reminded to do such.. The form I use the e collar is to be like cues so when and ONLY WHEN a dog needs to be cued I can do so with the e collar much the same as the Check cord.
So I do not see any reason not to have the e collar as an aid in maintaining training. I like how it can help keep the wheels on specially when a dog gets older and decides to test their parameters

which like kids as a dog matures they will all go through that stage where someone turns off the switch and you feel like you have to start all over again...that is when the real training begins

[BrittGSP818]

Ezzy, no where in my post did I say I was a better trainer or that my dog is a better trained dog.

I know i'm not Ezzy, but you implied it right here:

I think e collars are a great tool but harm our breeding in the long run. I use to use one on my previous dog (gsp) because of his stubborness. Most other countries don't use them and their dogs come out just great, if not better. This is due to breeding, here, if a dog is stubborn just take the easy route and slap on an e collar and make him into a champ, then breed him/her and produce pups that are similar. I am not saying this is true for all dogs but quite a few.

now, you didn't say YOUR dog was better, just dogs trained without the use of an ecollar.

I still didn't imply that they are better, I said they come out great if not better, which means sometimes not always. Some think that an e collar makes a better dog always..

[Chukar12]

E-Collars when used properly always ...always ... always produce better results than teaching a dog to sight point

[BrittGSP818]

E-Collars when used properly always ...always ... always produce better results than teaching a dog to sight point

I don't think anyone mentioned sight pointing, that is a different topic.

[GUNDOGS]

Ezzy, no where in my post did I say I was a better trainer or that my dog is a better trained dog.

I know i'm not Ezzy, but you implied it right here:

I think e collars are a great tool but harm our breeding in the long run. I use to use one on my previous dog (gsp) because of his stubborness. Most other countries don't use them and their dogs come out just great, if not better. This is due to breeding, here, if a dog is stubborn just take the easy route and slap on an e collar and make him into a champ, then breed him/her and produce pups that are similar. I am not saying this is true for all dogs but quite a few.

now, you didn't say YOUR dog was better, just dogs trained without the use of an ecollar.

I still didn't imply that they are better, I said they come out great if not better, which means sometimes not always. Some think that an e collar makes a better dog always..

And so what if you DO think dogs are better trained without the ecollar in your opinion George?..i dont mean to speak for you by commenting on this but it seems people feel training a dog WITH an ecollar produces better trained dogs so why cant you have an opinion that dogs are trained better WITHOUT them?..this is one of the things i disagree with about some people on the forum..if you dont see things THEIR way its wrong!!..isnt the point of asking for EVERYONES opinion is to get different views of things?..my post asked ALL people their opinion WITH or WITHOUT the ecollar..so why should the people that dont use it be defending themselves!!..i see all advise on here as valuable and we all have enough brains to piece threw info on any topics in the forum and take what we can/want from it..there are no WRONG ways people in this post are training just DIFFERENT ways and i like the input from all, its appreciated...thanks..ruth

[Chukar12]

I don't think anyone mentioned sight pointing, that is a different topic.

Oh...I do apologize, I was just starting a list of actions and obstacles we could eliminate to bring credibilty back to the modern use of the e-collar. I would venture that every professional sporting dog trainer that has touched I dunno...25 dogs in the last three years owns an e-collar and actively employs it in some level of training.

My comment was certainly backhanded as you have presented some thoughts in the past that are at best controversial but more accurately without basis. That of course in the name of civility and politeness can and should be ignored. However, a comment that is personal in this thread opens up your opinions for scrutiny and exposure for what they are. A personal agenda to express and justify your point of view. Well it is innacurate and unlearned when it comes to sporting dogs.

by BrittGSP818

many other things in life are much more exciting when battery powered "equipment" is not used I will let you think about that one

Come on George ...

[GUNDOGS]

Gundogs
No matter how a person trains Foundation is primary

I prefer to have the e collar so when a dog elects to not do what the training habits we tried to build they can be reminded to do such.. The form I use the e collar is to be like cues so when and ONLY WHEN a dog needs to be cued I can do so with the e collar much the same as the Check cord.
So I do not see any reason not to have the e collar as an aid in maintaining training. I like how it can help keep the wheels on specially when a dog gets older and decides to test their parameters

which like kids as a dog matures they will all go through that stage where someone turns off the switch and you feel like you have to start all over again...that is when the real training begins

Kninebirddog, so you do alot of yard work before using the ecollar then use it in the field to reinforce what you have taught the dog during training?..at what age do you usually begin using it? ...thanks ....ruth

[GUNDOGS]

Ruth -


However you go about training your new dog, I urge you to do it in an organized fashion. The quote you should repeat to yourself every time you want to go work with the pup is

"Plan your work, then go out and work your plan."

I agree.

ME TOO!!

[kninebirddog]

Yes I use the command lead and teach points of contact on the neck and also teach a point of contact on the flank I have a strong base of the rick smith method.
So when I do need do a command it is something that the dog already understands before we use it. Then as for age this really depends on the dog but I will start over laying check cord and e collar some where between approx 10 months or older. I am not trying to make a broke dog at a young age I am trying to establish good habits to help a young dog become that seasoned dog we want as it matures

[GUNDOGS]

Yes I use the command lead and teach points of contact on the neck and also teach a point of contact on the flank I have a strong base of the rick smith method.
So when I do need do a command it is something that the dog already understands before we use it. Then as for age this really depends on the dog but I will start over laying check cord and e collar some where between approx 10 months or older. I am not trying to make a broke dog at a young age I am trying to establish good habits to help a young dog become that seasoned dog we want as it matures

Thanks for the reply...i like the fact that you only go to the collar once the dog understands the command as a way to reinforce his/her training when you are in the field...i found alot of hunters advise was to go directly to ecollar as a form of teaching commands not for reinforcing commands already learned(even as young as 5 months) so we started our GSP on it as advised at 5 months but my husband had spent sooo much time training and building such a good trainer/dog relationship after a month of not using it we took it off of him and never used it again..my husband, myself and our new pup will be attending the rick smith seminar in august at cold creek here in canada(she will be 8 months by then)..i am really looking forward to his teachings and his "read your dog" ways of doing things..also we just joined the NAVHDA grandriver chapter here in ontario canada, do you know much about NAVHDA?...we are very new to the NAVHDA world so any info would help us prepare...thanks...ruth

[BrittGSP818]

I don't think anyone mentioned sight pointing, that is a different topic.

Oh...I do apologize, I was just starting a list of actions and obstacles we could eliminate to bring credibilty back to the modern use of the e-collar. I would venture that every professional sporting dog trainer that has touched I dunno...25 dogs in the last three years owns an e-collar and actively employs it in some level of training.

My comment was certainly backhanded as you have presented some thoughts in the past that are at best controversial but more accurately without basis. That of course in the name of civility and politeness can and should be ignored. However, a comment that is personal in this thread opens up your opinions for scrutiny and exposure for what they are. A personal agenda to express and justify your point of view. Well it is innacurate and unlearned when it comes to sporting dogs.

by BrittGSP818

many other things in life are much more exciting when battery powered "equipment" is not used I will let you think about that one

Come on George ...

Chukar12 if you want to talk trash on people go do that somewhere else. I have never encouraged or promoted sight pointing or mentioned/implied it in any of my posts for dogs that are already pointing. If a pup is not point then a wing or bird is put on a string and tossed around for the pup to see and get excited. Sometimes seeing it helps the pup's instincts come out. Just because someones training methods aren't the same as yours does not give you the right to say the that they dont are innacurate or unlearned. FYI, have worked with Jim Rice who has been training gundogs for as long as I can remember and also judges field trials. As for your "personal agenda to express and justify your point of view" comment, that is exactly what everyone here does. You all say e collar is the only way and then you give your point of view to justify. Just because that point of view is different than yours doesnt mean it is wrong. As I mentioned before, an e collar is a great tool but I elect to not use it. Jut like most others in different countries, so your pro trainers with 25 or more dogs expereince can still use them, but that does not make them right or wrong. I know many doctors that smoke and drink, and if they do so, then so should I. Great logical thinking.

[Chukar12]

I have no intention of trash talking anyone, only learning where I can and provide input when I am confident my experience warrants it. As I said, you were fine until you crossed a line. As for defending your position check your avatar and try these gems on Mr Rice who is a proponent of the tri-tronics brand training collar. I do not mean to offend you personally, as your intention was with others but you are accountable for your words.

by BrittGSP818

Put a bird on the ground where he can see the bird, then walk him on a leash and command whoa when you want him to stop

I used this method to teach my 9 month old gsp who had the same issue of flash pointing or just running in. The reason I said (did the same with my pup) sight pointing is so the pup knows that the bird is there before catching scent and getting really excited. Regards to the whoa command, I used the bird also to help transition the whoa means stop to the bird means stop. Not saying this the right or best way to do it, but it sure worked for my dog

If I have to "teach" my pup to do everything in the field then whats the point of getting a hunting dog. Get a husky and teach it the same.

It is excitement and anticipation. Play fetch with her and see if she "flags" her tail while waiting for you to throw the ball. If so, wait till she stops wagging then toss her the ball. This is her reward for not wagging

[BrittGSP818]

As I said, you were fine until you crossed a line. As for defending your position check your avatar and try these gems on Mr Rice.

by BrittGSP818

Put a bird on the ground where he can see the bird, then walk him on a leash and command whoa when you want him to stop

I used this method to teach my 9 month old gsp who had the same issue of flash pointing or just running in. The reason I said (did the same with my pup) sight pointing is so the pup knows that the bird is there before catching scent and getting really excited. Regards to the whoa command, I used the bird also to help transition the whoa means stop to the bird means stop. Not saying this the right or best way to do it, but it sure worked for my dog

If I have to "teach" my pup to do everything in the field then whats the point of getting a hunting dog. Get a husky and teach it the same.

It is excitement and anticipation. Play fetch with her and see if she "flags" her tail while waiting for you to throw the ball. If so, wait till she stops wagging then toss her the ball. This is her reward for not wagging

For my avatar, it is my pup at 3 months old on his first ever bird contact. Instead of a wing I used a bird, and that was his only sight pointing. Everyone starts their pup off with sight pointing. As for the other comments, the dogs were not pointing, which is why I and said to let the dog see the bird to get the pups insticts going, and what you conveniently left out was when I said it might not be the "right" way but it did work for me before. This does not mean to always let the dog see the bird before going on point, just to get him to understand that the scent means bird which means stop. Wether you like it or not your dog will sight point automatically if they have the right genes. So when this happens your going to shock him with your e collar? No, because he knows to also point the scent. You obviously don't understand what I was saying, and chukar12, there are no lines to be crossed other than the forum rules. You and anyone else has the right to disagree with me, but don't try and trash talk and make it seem like your way is the only way.

[Chukar12]

I don't start my dogs out sight pointing
I included it might not be right
well...you told me, I give up

[BrittGSP818]

I don't start my dogs out sight pointing
I included it might not be right
well...you told me, I give up

Right, so would it be right for me or anyone else to say you are wrong for not starting them on a string and a wing? No, that is how you do it and many others use the string and wing. Could my pups first bird contact have been scent only? Sure, but both forms would have gotten the same results at the end. My point, and I believe Ruth's as well (correct me if I am wrong) is that there are many forms of training a gundog. If my pup was as high strung as my previous dog, than an e collar would be a must. If your dog is biddable without one, then why use it? Thats my point. There are many many books and videos on how to train a birddog, which one is the right one, well the one that you find most convenient for you.

[gonehuntin']

For those that don't understand how the ecollar is used, every dog is thoroughly trained using the OLD WAYS. I t is only for the final polish, after the dog will perform every other task on and off lead, that the ecollar is overlayed and the dog conditioned to it.

After that, for me, it's there as a safety valve. The dog or dogs wear it every time they go out, but it may be up to two years before it is used on them. It gives me great peace of mind to know that I CAN correct that dog if need be, and POSSIBLY save that dog's life.

The ecollar and the Astro; a bird dog's two best friends.

[GUNDOGS]

I don't start my dogs out sight pointing
I included it might not be right
well...you told me, I give up

Right, so would it be right for me or anyone else to say you are wrong for not starting them on a string and a wing? No, that is how you do it and many others use the string and wing. Could my pups first bird contact have been scent only? Sure, but both forms would have gotten the same results at the end. My point, and I believe Ruth's as well (correct me if I am wrong) is that there are many forms of training a gundog. If my pup was as high strung as my previous dog, than an e collar would be a must. If your dog is biddable without one, then why use it? Thats my point. There are many many books and videos on how to train a birddog, which one is the right one, well the one that you find most convenient.

I do agree George, thats my point as well..i havent nor would i tell someone who uses the ecollar when they feel they should that its wrong..that would be silly since if it worked for them it must work!!..i just have found it may not be needed in SOME cases or maybe not needed so soon and on my original post asked people if they have been successful without one and what their techniques were..the reason why i asked is really because i like to learn different ways of doing things..its a big world out there with many different success stories so why not hear and try them..i am like you george i like a challange..BY THE WAY we have always used a string and wing with a new pup or a dog just getting introduced to birds but i wouldnt be opposed to trying something else..doesnt mean i dont believe in using a string and wing just that i like to learn other methods..i really do appreciate ALL input and ive already learned some things from this thread so any other thoughts are welcomed too!! .....ruth

[ezzy333]

I don't think either of you sre understanding the proper use of an e-collar, what it used for, when it is used, or how it is used and what it does for your dog. Till there is some understanding of those basic principles I doubt if you can understand why it is used.

Ezzn

[GUNDOGS]

For those that don't understand how the ecollar is used, every dog is thoroughly trained using the OLD WAYS. I t is only for the final polish, after the dog will perform every other task on and off lead, that the ecollar is overlayed and the dog conditioned to it.

After that, for me, it's there as a safety valve. The dog or dogs wear it every time they go out, but it may be up to two years before it is used on them. It gives me great peace of mind to know that I CAN correct that dog if need be, and POSSIBLY save that dog's life.

The ecollar and the Astro; a bird dog's two best friends.

The main reason i posted this GONEHUNTIN is because the proper way you are explaining the use is not what my experience seeing others use it has always been..i have witnessed some major abuse of this tool..i have seen guys/gals shocking the dog BEFORE a command has been taught which i was confused about cause how does the dog know why he is being corrected if he wasnt trained FIRST..i have also seen a dog chase birds and the trainer give him enough electricity to light up a city and the dog yipe but keep runnin' ....Now these situations are not the norm and obviously are improper use of the collar but when ive seen others not use it really at all and have success and have a very good dog/handler relationship it made me consider pro's and con's of the need for the collar and wonder with this new pup coming should we TRY no collar and see if we can be just as successful without one?..just like the use of launchers..my husband puts birds in his pocket or has me throw them and when some people see or hear of that they say why dont you use a launcher they are more productive ect..we have launchers but dont always use them..thanks....ruth

[Chukar12]

Ruth I think all have seen the collar used wrong and like any force applied without training and pre-conditioning it is detrimental. A wing and a string, or a sock, rag, stuffed animal on a string....pretty much anything playing keep away with a pup will get them to point. Too much will create bad habits. Your question is e collar or not? The answers have been comprehensive ....almost always....but never to teach only to re-enforce. Some of the other banter is misplaced and for my part please excuse my ill manners....it is however reasonable and important to keep people from getting bad advice. It is the dogs that suffer when that happens.

[GUNDOGS]

Ruth I think all have seen the collar used wrong and like any force applied without training and pre-conditioning it is detrimental. A wing and a string, or a sock, rag, stuffed animal on a string....pretty much anything playing keep away with a pup will get them to point. Too much will create bad habits. Your question is e collar or not? The answers have been comprehensive ....almost always....but never to teach only to re-enforce. Some of the other banter is misplaced and for my part please excuse my ill manners....it is however reasonable and important to keep people from getting bad advice. It is the dogs that suffer when that happens.

Chukar12..got it!!..see im kinda new to this hole world of hunting, training, trialing, testing thing..only about 8 years..but i am ADDICTED to the hole world of it all and find that for so many hunters or trialers their ways differ COMPETELY..thats why as soon as we purchased this new pup my husband and i wanted to join this forum(more for me)..to get insight and take from each person just a bit to become more knowledgeable and share some things with others we may have knowledge of too!!..i am young but no dummy ...years ago i learned the intended use of the collar is for reinforsement of training but still dont see it used that way when out hunting which is confusing..its like its all on paper but not in the real world if that makes sense.. ..which created confusion for me and before we decided to start this pup on the collar as we have done in the past i figured why not have our pup go without one and see if maybe we could be successful with her in the field WITHOUT the need for "electrical" reinforcement..especially since like i said ive seen dogs shocked to all heck and still go about their chasing, ect..so i wonder.. if i NEVER end up using a collar and have a dog that NEVER has one on her neck and share my experience with someone else asking this same question as i am are people going to tell me how wrong i am for training that way?..i mean if it works or worked for me why cant i consider that a success!!..thanks...ruth

[GUNDOGS]

I don't think either of you sre understanding the proper use of an e-collar, what it used for, when it is used, or how it is used and what it does for your dog. Till there is some understanding of those basic principles I doubt if you can understand why it is used.

Ezzn

I think we are more intelligent than you think ezzy..i think i have a basic understanding what the proper use is but still like to see how people introduce it, continue using it or dont use it at all..i just have not seen it always used the way it was intended to be used and wanted to try something else..i think you arent understanding the original post..i wanted views ALSO from people who have used other methods of training with success and want to share it with us..maybe sharing how you use to train before the ecollar would have helped out seeing as not many people have trained WITH and WITHOUT and you are one of the few that have..i mean i have said MANY times i appreciate ALL sides..but just because you find it EASIER now with the tools available how about helping out those of us that want to learn the "old" ways of training as well...JMO..ruth

[Chukar12]

Before the e collar they ran them down on foot or horseback and thumped em for their transgressions

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Alot of them were peppered with shot,I think a little electric stimulation is much safer.

[brad27]

i think i have a basic understanding what the proper use is but still like to see how people introduce it, continue using it or dont use it at all..i just have not seen it always used the way it was intended to be used and wanted to try something else..

ruth, check out these vidoes. they explain the PROPER use of the ecollar.
http://www.sportdog.com/Support/Trainin ... aspx#12079

[ezzy333]

I think we are more intelligent than you think ezzy..i think i have a basic understanding what the proper use is but still like to see how people introduce it, continue using it or dont use it at all..i just have not seen it always used the way it was intended to be used and wanted to try something else

Ruth excuse me for being rather short with you but I don't quite knoq how to explain something like this. Let me ask you what in your life does not the above statement you made not apply to? I'm not sure anyone knows how it was intended to be used and it makes no difference. What is important is what can it do for you? How someone else uses it is immaterial in your use. But I am sure you can't necessarily judge how someone else uses it as being right or wrong. I primarily use it here in the yard and the dogs do not go out with out it on. And if you were here you would see me use it without even speaking to the dog, just like you explained what you had seen and thought it was wrong. Also my dogs normally have it on when hunting but I can count on one hand the times it has been used as my basic rule is you never use it when you can't see the dog.

Now I am sure you are asking why I would use it without speaking to the dog first. The reason is very much like how a fence works. My dogs know they are to stay here in or at least near our yard. But our neighbor throws out fried chicken for the birds and the dogs love to go over and get it it. They already know they aren't supposed to so I purposely hide even and if they decide they can venture over since I am not around they get zapped and it is amazing they know exactly why. What I am teaching is they have to do as they have learned whether I am watching or not. But if you were here for the first time and saw that you would be on here talking about me not using it properly or as intended. The point is don't be too quick to decide what someone else is doing is right or wrong. And of course we all have seen the collar misused but probably not any where near as often as regular collars. But everyone does that so we don't even notice. There has been a lot of physical damage done o dogs with a heavy hand on a leash but can not ever think of a single case of it happening from the stimulation the e-collar produces.

And is has prevented many deaths or serious injuries when a dog is running towards a road or barb wire fence or many other obstacles. AND IT HAS THE TRAINER A LOT OF MILES OF RUNNING AFTER A DOG THAT IS IGNORING YOU, OR USING THE SHOTGUN TO GET THEIR ATTENTION LIKE IT USED TO BE DONE,AND HAS SAVED ON HAVING TO CARRY A WHIP WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO TEACH A DOG TO BE STEADY.

Most all responsible trainers today do not use a collar on young pups, do not use it for correction till they are sure the dog knows what is expected from it, and use it as a long check cord in their training program. But it is also an invaluable tool to teach avoidance such as deer chasing or snake avoidance and in that method you do set it high and hit them with it without talking to them at all. You are trying to teach that doing those things are going to hurt them. Same principle for spanking a child. From my perspective if you use a CC then you can't really find any logical excuse not to use the e-collar. But if you really like a challenge then train your pup with out ever putting a collar on it, whether it be leather, web, plastic, brown, orange or electrical as they all are just tool to make your job manageable and to save both you and the dog a lot of frustration.

Or just do it any way you like and have fun.

Ezzy

[Winchey]

I don't use one. Well I put a citranella collar on my dog at around a year. Before that it is all positive reinforcemnt and shaping. I think those methods are better and faster at teaching new concepts. By the time it is time to use the collar my dogs have the Canine good neighbour course done and pretty reliable in most situations, I can stop them and hadle them in the woods or on the pond etc... (without treats) However it's just much faster and less aggravating to use the collar when the dog is extremely wound up and there is no reward you could possibly give him that is better than flushing and chasing. The citranella collar has some advantages and disadvantages to the e-collar. Advantages are it gets there attention much better imo and they are much cheaper. Disadvantageous is the range sucks, they are of poor quality, the only settings consist of punch in the face, kick in the face and beep. Once I go through my positive process I can either spend a few weeks with the collar working the bugs out barely using it, generally a beep every couple of days is enough once they associate the beep with getting sprayed. Mind you my dogs all ready know what I want before the collar goes on. The alternative is going months with a checkcord with not nearly as much success.

[Winchey]

Just one last thing, after I get my point across with the collar I don't really use it after that. I find the positive stuff lasts longer and is better at maintaining. And I don't like relying on one more gadget.

[GUNDOGS]

i think i have a basic understanding what the proper use is but still like to see how people introduce it, continue using it or dont use it at all..i just have not seen it always used the way it was intended to be used and wanted to try something else..

ruth, check out these vidoes. they explain the PROPER use of the ecollar.
http://www.sportdog.com/Support/Trainin ... aspx#12079

Brad27..thanks for that link..i spent the last hour on it!! ...ruth

[GUNDOGS]

@Winchey..thanks for the post, i like to hear about other methods of equipment..citranella is one i never heard of for training other than for barking..interesting..just goes to show ya different things work for different people ...ruth


@Ezzy..no problem i know you dont mean to be short with me..i also know its all in your head so you might get frustrated with someone like me thats just tryin to "get it"..my husband is VERY knowledgeable and has been hunting for over 20 years..no trials ..but has been all over for birds and is one of the smartest people ive ever met..so i like to learn from him as well..hes impressed with the amount of things i have learned and talked about on here when he gets home ..maybe he just likes that since i LOVE hunting and the dogs so much, buying a new shotgun isnt a problem with me .. ..i get your point about the electric fence situation in comparison to the ecollar as well..i dont think however i misunderstood the use of the collar of the trainer/hunters i was speaking about..i honestly dont think 1) their dog was hunting for them or even with them therefore the dog did as he pleased..2) hearing the comments about "frying their a$$" was not a person using it with care ..but enough of that im not going to bash those people its a waste of time, THEY are a waste of time!!..thanks for your post and i do like your input..although you always seem to get that sarcastic remark in at the end .....i will save the" bell vs beeper " issue for another time ..ruth

[gonehuntin']

Ruth, everyone has to train in the way they enjoy and in a way they are successful with. As I say, I do think the collar is the best method, but I've used all the methods over a 50 year period and settled on it.

This doesn't mean it's right for you. Experiment and use the system you enjoy and realize the greatest benefits from.