Basic puppy questions

[cpinkert]

Hello,

I picked up an 8 week old Britt female last Friday and have a couple questions about the use of the word "no". This is my first bird hunting dog, so forgive my lack of knowledge/confidence regarding training methods.

First, I understand part of being a puppy is exploring/checking out new things with their mouths, but my pup likes a few bushes/plants in the yard a bit much for my liking. I don't want to kill her drive to explore/try new things by overusing the word "no", but I also don't want her chewing up my bushes/plants. Anyone ever run into an issue with overusing the word "no" with a puppy this young? She also hears it a lot in the house when she tries to chew the carpet, furniture, shoes, cords, etc. I have plenty of chewies in the house, and give her baby carrots (she loves carrots!), but when she gets in full on chew/run around the house mode she starts looking for new things to chew on.

The next question I have is should I be saying "no" when I catch her peeing/pooping in the house and then take her outside, or should I just pick her up and bring her right outside without saying "no"?

Thanks for any advice you can give me! I'm sure I'll be having plenty of questions over the next few years!

-Chris

[cpinkert]

[kninebirddog]

One thing I would consider is getting an area where your pup can be and not get into trouble do not let her have run of the house. Get an X pen or make a room/ area which is puppy safe where she can be when you do not have the time to watch her. Same with in the yard have an area where she will be safe.

on the chewing do not scold her when she is getting into something she should not be getting into right now it is your fault she is allowed to get to these items

Also watch fr is she just chewing or is she eating everything...This can be a serious problem specially of she eats something which will block her intestines..String is very very dangerous to a pup/dog if they get that swallowed and the intestines bind up on it. Make sure she isn't venturing in to the PICA mode http://www.vetinfo.com/pica-in-dogs.html this can become deadly serious

Good Luck

[Winchey]

I don't think you can overdo "no" but it is important to take her to places where she can have free range and explore like Knine said. As for peeing in the house I think it can help to scold before you take her out but the main thing is to set a schedule and minimize accidents. You can almost eliminate accidents if you are on the ball. A puppy needs to go out something like every 2 hours or so and then you can add about an hour per month over 2 months. After they play they need to go out, as soon as they wake up they have to go out, after they eat they have to go out. As for the chewing or getting into stuff, like Knine said watch her like a hawk, and I would always redirect her to something appropriate like a dog toy when you catch her doing something wrong, they need outlets and things to chew. So I guess you can overuse it but If you do these things you can minimize having to use it.

[GUNDOGS]

+1 on putting the pup in a safe place to have fun and have a good experience with you..we have blocked off our kitchen for our pup to run around and people to play with her in the house and all her toys ect are in there..she is only allowed in the other rooms of the house if someone is watching closely cause she is still potty training..you are dealing with a baby so they will chew and eat anything safe or not..i have a 12 week old pup and we put everything up out of her way so she doesnt get it but when she does try to chew on the leg of a chair or something a firm NO gets her attention and we give her one of her toys or chews in its place and pet her..yes you are the boss and yes its your possessions but the pup is still so young at 8 weeks and you have to provide a safe area for it..usually the same thing for outside a clap of the hands and a firm NO will send them away from bushes or trees in the yard that you dont want her chewing on..just make sure you are consistent and so is anyone else in the family..if you have one person let her on the couch or chew on something and then you do not allow it and discipline her for it then she will be confused..each time the pup goes to chew something you dont want her to just give her something that is allowed instead...good luck..ruth

[Cajun Casey]

Teach "LEAVE IT" instead. That way, there is a chance for the pup to be successful and learn each time she turns away from the forbidden item. Food rewards work great for this.

[cpinkert]

I think a little more puppy proofing is definitely in order at home and I like the idea of sectioning off a room for the pup to be able to play safely in when I can't watch her every second. Right now she's in the kennel if I can't be watching her constantly. I do try to redirect her chewing when I see her getting into full on chew mode. Sometimes it works, sometimes she seems to test out what she can chew on by mouthing things and dropping them repeatedly after I say no.

She doesn't appear to be eating anything she's chewing on other than carrots, but thanks for the heads up knine!

As far as having places to be free and explore, what are your thoughts on taking a pup this age out into the woods and letting her run free dragging a 10-20' puppy size check cord? I'd be right with her, but would let her do her own thing and explore off the beaten path.

I am definitely getting better at recognizing when she needs to go out before accidents happen. Sometimes when we're playing that can be every 20 minutes!

Thanks for all of the advice!

[kninebirddog]

At 8 weeks of age take her out and let her go ...keep your mouth shut just go for walks do little things like change directions just watch her and see how long it takes her to go with you again don't say anything...just make it a game ..these are great exercises which will lead to a hunting partner who will be cuing off where you are going and oh my if you might get lost and she has to come find you because you hid behind a bush

I wouldn't worry about a check cord at this time as long as you are not right near a road or something dangerous a check cord at her age will get her hung up to much and impede the exploration of the new world..and if you can get a couple good flying quail for her to find bump and chase at this young age on an occasion would be great stuff

also help her learn that 4 on the floor gets rewarded and her puppy jumping gets ignored

help her learn to be still when you put your hands on her this will help with many things in the future when she learns to be still near you and a reward doesn't mean release this is very important but being still while brushing checking for sticker being on point checking the ears feeding this can all be started to be shaped as a habit now

[OkieDogGuy]

I think a little more puppy proofing is definitely in order at home and I like the idea of sectioning off a room for the pup to be able to play safely in when I can't watch her every second. Right now she's in the kennel if I can't be watching her constantly. I do try to redirect her chewing when I see her getting into full on chew mode. Sometimes it works, sometimes she seems to test out what she can chew on by mouthing things and dropping them repeatedly after I say no.

She doesn't appear to be eating anything she's chewing on other than carrots, but thanks for the heads up knine!

As far as having places to be free and explore, what are your thoughts on taking a pup this age out into the woods and letting her run free dragging a 10-20' puppy size check cord? I'd be right with her, but would let her do her own thing and explore off the beaten path.

I am definitely getting better at recognizing when she needs to go out before accidents happen. Sometimes when we're playing that can be every 20 minutes!

Thanks for all of the advice!

I've been taking my EP pup out for no-leash runs on my hunting/fishing properties since he was 8 weeks old. Great way for them to explore and develop their natural instincts...as opposed to hearing all those "nos" at home.

As for house training...get a crate. Had my EP fully house trained by 10 weeks with only 2-3 "mistakes" during the process thanks to the crate. At first I had to get up every few hours at night to take him out and "go potty outside"...but soon he was holding it for 4, 6, 8 and more hours. Crate training is the only way to go.

[4dabirds]

"she does try to chew on the leg of a chair or something a firm NO gets her attention and we give her one of her toys or chews in its place and pet her..yes you are the boss and yes its your possessions but the pup is still so young at 8 weeks and you have to provide a safe area for it..usually the same thing for outside a clap of the hands and a firm NO will send them away from bushes or trees in the yard that you dont want her chewing on..just make sure you are consistent and so is anyone else in the family..if you have one person let her on the couch or chew on something and then you do not allow it and discipline her for it then she will be confused..each time the pup goes to chew something you dont want her to just give her something that is allowed instead...good luck..ruth "
GUNDOGS
Rank: 2X Champion

Posts: 402
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:37 am
Location: canada
You have to be careful with this advice. You may be setting up a chain. The dog chews something,. then you give the dog something else . The dog may see the something else as reward for chewing. Inadvertently you have trained the dog in a chain of behaviors. The dog thinks if I want toys all I have to do is chew something! I never use the word no unless it is followed by a correction. The word becomes insignificant to the dog over time without the correction. You are not walking the walk so to speak. If the dog is being taught something i say eh eh or wrong. I save no for known commands that have been trained and are expected to be complied with. I just read an article by Dave Hughes he does not like to use the word no because it sounds to much like the word whoa. I do not do this but i think he is right. The thing to remember is to always be consistent in all of your training . Never put yourself in a position where the dog can do something wrong and escape the correction. If you can not correct the behavior do not waste your time saying no to the dog if it will have no consequences. This will only teach the dog it can call your bluff. Cajun Casey gave good advice When you do not like a behavior train a different behavior in its place . This becomes a rewarded behavior instead of a corrected behavior. Always Reward wanted behaviors and ignore or correct unwanted. Good luck with the pup.

[GUNDOGS]

I dont agree 4dabirds..as i said if the dog is chewing tell her NO first then redirect by giving the pup something that is allowed..it only takes a few times for a pup to see what is allowed and not allowed..our pup chewed on the legs of the chair and the gate a few times then after we said NO or pulled her back by her collar and said NO and then gave her a toy to play with she got it and doesnt bother anything at all now and shes only 12 weeks..redirection is very useful and it works too..i still recommend it.....ruth

[4dabirds]

I dont agree 4dabirds..as i said if the dog is chewing tell her NO first then redirect by giving the pup something that is allowed..it only takes a few times for a pup to see what is allowed and not allowed..our pup chewed on the legs of the chair and the gate a few times then after we said NO or pulled her back by her collar and said NO and then gave her a toy to play with she got it and doesnt bother anything at all now and shes only 12 weeks..redirection is very useful and it works too..i still recommend it.....ruth

What I was talking about was the lack of correction in your first post. In this post you say you gave a tug on the collar that is a correction. As far as I know dogs do not speak English and the word no means nothing to the dog without correction. Dogs learn by association . If the dog has no negative consequence to an unwanted behavior it has no vested interest in complying . Furthermore if the dog makes the association that chewing leads to reward it may perceive this as what you want. No needs to be followed by correction and yes followed by reward. If you lose continuity you will confuse the dog and the dog may become apprehensive. Some times this apprehensive nature is misunderstood and the trainer assumes the timid nature is compliance. In this case the dog should be corrected only while in the act then after a little time it will wash from the dogs memory, then redirect to a suitable chew toy. Also dogs do not perceive things in bad or good they see things as safe or unsafe. This is why some dogs will continue to chew things in the house when you are not there , it is safe to chew when you are gone.

[Winchey]

That's interesting, I have also wondered about the same sort of thing. I have been to a lot of puppy classes and basic PR classes and I always wondered why they lure dogs into positions with food, then a few minutes later teach leave it by insisting the dog does not follow the same food lure. It doesen't make any sense to me but the dogs always seem to know the difference.

[4dabirds]

That's interesting, I have also wondered about the same sort of thing. I have been to a lot of puppy classes and basic PR classes and I always wondered why they lure dogs into positions with food, then a few minutes later teach leave it by insisting the dog does not follow the same food lure. It doesen't make any sense to me but the dogs always seem to know the difference.

I am not really sure what you mean here or how it relates to the post. One thing I can relate is that the military did studies on dogs and found that when a dog exhibits a behavior you have three seconds to reward or correct the behavior . after that the dogs mind is on to something else and will not relate the correction or reward to the original behavior but will relate it to what it is doing in the moment. If they used food to lure the dog and through time washed that memory from the dogs mind it will not relate the two things. Its not that the dog knows the difference its that the dog makes no correlation between the two. I use food for reward but I do not like to use it as a lure. If you use it as a lure the dog does not approach the training as an active participant unless the food is present.

[cpinkert]

Took Jemma out for her first woods experience yesterday and she had a blast! Played hide and seek with her a few times when I was able to sneak away and you're all right, the look on her face was priceless. Gonna take her out today with the camera and try to capture that moment when she finds me!

[Winchey]

That's interesting, I have also wondered about the same sort of thing. I have been to a lot of puppy classes and basic PR classes and I always wondered why they lure dogs into positions with food, then a few minutes later teach leave it by insisting the dog does not follow the same food lure. It doesen't make any sense to me but the dogs always seem to know the difference.

I am not really sure what you mean here or how it relates to the post. One thing I can relate is that the military did studies on dogs and found that when a dog exhibits a behavior you have three seconds to reward or correct the behavior . after that the dogs mind is on to something else and will not relate the correction or reward to the original behavior but will relate it to what it is doing in the moment. If they used food to lure the dog and through time washed that memory from the dogs mind it will not relate the two things. Its not that the dog knows the difference its that the dog makes no correlation between the two. I use food for reward but I do not like to use it as a lure. If you use it as a lure the dog does not approach the training as an active participant unless the food is present.

I disagree, you lure with food then you reward at the exact or as exact as you can be time the dog does the required behaviour, you overlay with hand signals and or voice command, remove lures and remove treats as the behaviour becomes habit. With repition you can relate the no, or ahah, to a correction and often the simple verbal cue is enough of a correction. I do think dogs are capable of a certain amount of rationality, my dogs at least know the difference between, shoes, clothes, or whatever and their dog toys. As for the dog approacing as an active participant it would depend on the dog to a degree. I think as you train and progress the 3 second window expands. As a puppy or when teaching new commands the 3 seconds is extremely important but once the dog knows it is less important.

[GUNDOGS]

That's interesting, I have also wondered about the same sort of thing. I have been to a lot of puppy classes and basic PR classes and I always wondered why they lure dogs into positions with food, then a few minutes later teach leave it by insisting the dog does not follow the same food lure. It doesen't make any sense to me but the dogs always seem to know the difference.

I am not really sure what you mean here or how it relates to the post. One thing I can relate is that the military did studies on dogs and found that when a dog exhibits a behavior you have three seconds to reward or correct the behavior . after that the dogs mind is on to something else and will not relate the correction or reward to the original behavior but will relate it to what it is doing in the moment. If they used food to lure the dog and through time washed that memory from the dogs mind it will not relate the two things. Its not that the dog knows the difference its that the dog makes no correlation between the two. I use food for reward but I do not like to use it as a lure. If you use it as a lure the dog does not approach the training as an active participant unless the food is present.

I disagree, you lure with food then you reward at the exact or as exact as you can be time the dog does the required behaviour, you overlay with hand signals and or voice command, remove lures and remove treats as the behaviour becomes habit. With repition you can relate the no, or ahah, to a correction and often the simple verbal cue is enough of a correction. I do think dogs are capable of a certain amount of rationality, my dogs at least know the difference between, shoes, clothes, or whatever and their dog toys. As for the dog approacing as an active participant it would depend on the dog to a degree. I think as you train and progress the 3 second window expands. As a puppy or when teaching new commands the 3 seconds is extremely important but once the dog knows it is less important.

+1 winchey, you have a far more literate way of explaining than i do..i know dogs know english or the "sound of the word" ..i know its word association that has allowed them to learn the word but in any event they know english and they do know when i say NO even if i am in the window and they are in the yard, if they would start to bark or as a pup chew and i say NO they stop, look at me and stop the behaviour mainly because of the tone of my voice im sure but in any event they still know it means stop that behaviour right now and they do..i didnt mention pulling on the collar in the first post cause im not always close enough to do so but i dont have any chewing issues on my furniture and they dont bother my garden cause they know they will be corrected even if its verbally..hope i made sense ....ruth

[Winchey]

4dabirds
"if the dog makes the association that chewing leads to reward it may perceive this as what you want"

I got a little side tracked but this is what I seen to be connected to my luring and leave it example. What you said makes sense to me but experience seems to state otherwise.

I don't know if it is better to correct or reward all the time, PR is largely based on the Slot Machine annalogy which I am sure you are familiar with, I don't know why it wouldn't work the other way with correction. However if you are not in a position to correct or are unwilling to correct for non compliance, things can get out of hand in a hurry. Anyway's not saying my methods are better or not, I really don't know, I have a lot to learn. I do enjoy reading your posts and for the most part I think our methods and philosophies are probably more alike than different. Probably the closest on this board.

[4dabirds]

I am big on reward and only use correction when the dog does not comply with learned commands, although in this case where a dog is chewing something that could be dangerous or could lead to destruction of property I think it is best to have the dog make the association that certain things are bad for them. If you teach leave it it does not give the dog the sense that it is dangerous to chew certain items. You would not train a dog to leave a snake alone you would correct the dog harshly so it makes the association that it is bad for the dog. The dog stays away from the item because it believes the item is dangerous. This is why i like to use a "bonker" rolled up towel thrown when the dog is not looking at you so it associates that the act is dangerous, not that you dont want him to chew. This is why some dogs will chew when you are not there . It is only dangerous to them when you are home. There is an interesting method called throw chain method that is based on this. There are some u-tube videos of it. The PR method or slot machine is relying on the dogs motivation to succeed . If wolves did not keep on trying to get the moose in spite of being kicked they would not have evolved. They will take correction over and over again to succeed but this is not the motivation the motivation is the reward. The greater the reward the more motivated the dog is to succeed.

[4dabirds]

I did not see the comment on food lures . What I do is use clicker training or operant conditioning when getting a new behavior. First you get the behavior then you shape the behavior then you overlay the command. What I mean by luring is to show the dog the treat first and use it to get the dog in position of the behavior you want. With operant conditioning you use the clicker to notify the dog that its behavior is reward-able at that exact moment. The way this works is you start by clicking any behavior the dog produces on its own. .The dog being motivated to please itself will repeat the behavior to get the reward without command or prompting with food. Once the dog is doing the behavior you can shape it gradually into what a more nuanced behavior. Then you overlay the cue. Since the dog is offering behaviors on its own it approaches the training session more positively because it was not compelled to do any thing. This is what I mean when I say the dog is more of a participant in the game. As far as a dog understanding English that is absolutely ridiculous to believe a dog has capacity for language. If my dog stops on the whistle doe he speak whistle? The word you chose for a cue is irrelevant. What the dog does is associate cues with actions to determine whether they are safe or dangerous. You can train your dog without ever speaking a word. Dogs are masters of their environment and are constantly looking for cues to know how to get what they want. When talking about the three second window I am talking about the time a dog gives a behavior to the time when its mind is on its next behavior. Once the behavior is marked the dog will understand that the reward or correction relates to that behavior for up to a half hour. Although it is best to do it as soon as possible.As far as what Ruth was saying about the correction it seems to Me that she has been correcting the dog and this is what got the compliance not the word no. I do agree that for puppies a loud no will suffice as correction but that is only commensurate with motivation. If the dog is chasing a squirell you can yell no as loud as you want and it will do nothing. So as for the original post yes you can over use the word no because without correction you diminish its effect over time.

[GUNDOGS]

Very good post 4dabirds..i totally agree with the silent command ways of training as a matter of fact i like reading alot of rick and ronnie smith info and i am attending their seminar in aug with our pup (your dog is like a book, you just have to read it)..so i do get what you are saying..all i am saying is dogs do know english as i said in the sense they learn by association just as humans or apes or anything else its just they dont take it to the next level by speaking it..i dont believe dogs understand words of feeling such as love or hate but by english i mean by communicating a word to a dog and getting a reaction to that word..they do have a large vocabulary..i totally agree they pick up on body language and cues..it amazes me how much they pick up on ..im just saying my dogs understand many many words and many hand signals as well..so im not implying that they ONLY know words and not any other form of communication..you can teach a dog sign language or hand signals, you can teach a dog whistle commands, and you can teach a dog english or french or whatever you want to associate to an object or action..i can tell my dog get your blue ball, or get your tennis ball and he will go get the right one so he is associating the object with the language which is what i mean by english..anyway i know what i mean to say but have a hard time explaining it which obviously you dont have that issue ..but i do redirect a bad behaviour to a more acceptable behaviour with our dogs in many instances and my original post was an example..also yes my dog will absolutely stop on a dime if i say NO when a squirrel is running by and he even thinks of running, its happened with deer and rabbits too..where we go running there are all kinds of distractions and ive never ever put my hands on him or used an ecollar he just listens i think more out of respect for me and my commands but in any event my word is final and he doesnt challenge it..maybe im just lucky ..ruth

[4dabirds]

Sounds like we agree Ruth. Google clever hans he was a horse that people thought could do math only he was just following cues that were ever so slight and even unintentional! It shows that when we train an animal we have to be careful of what we think we see as being the reason for compliance or non compliance. Dogs are masters at reading their environment and will cue off of the smallest body language we might not even realize we make.

[Winchey]

"They will take correction over and over again to succeed but this is not the motivation the motivation is the reward. The greater the reward the more motivated the dog is to succeed."


This is something I have a hard time wrapping my head around. I remember reading a chapter in some agility/shaping book that was lieing around the house over and over. It was trying to describe how agility trainers use shaping to make the obstacles or whatever into rewards themselves to create speed. Just not clicking with me for some reason.

[4dabirds]

I think the thing to think about is what is the motivation. In this case the performance is what gets the dog the reward . If you first shaped the dog to perform for reward then withheld allowing the dog to perform that task for the reward i guess that would motivate the dog to want to perform that task then for the dog it would be reward. I don't think these things work well for hunting dogs because you have to take into consideration prey drive. Agility people from what I understand do not use correction in training. We are always trying to motivate or even change motivation in our dogs to get them to actively hunt for birds then expect them to lose that motivation for the kill so we can do it for them. For a hunting dog this really is not natural. I guess what i'm trying to say is that we have to shape a dog around an instinct where they are not.

[ezzy333]

I believe pointing is a natural reaction for most animals before trying to catch an animal it has snuck up on. Through breeding we have enhanced that moment of collection so that the dogs holds it longer. Their reward for it is they get to retrieve a bird.

Ezzy

[Onk]

My Brit is now about 12 wks old and knows no. Has not killed his drive and I think he rolls with it. When in the house is really the only time no gets used much and he has learned the differance between his toys and the granddaughters toys. Outside I don't use it much and just try and keep my mouth shut, watching him explore is a hoot! Good luck with your Brit!

[solon]

I don't like to use the word No for a reprimand because of its similarity to whoa. I accept that dogs will mostly know the difference, but why make it a possible source of confusion. The problem is getting every one in the family on the same wave length, an using no is an ingrained habit. I prefer a sharp eh-eh.

Dave Hughes is a highly successful pro trainer and he had a column in an issue of Upland Almanac that laid out some basic rules for training that are worth reproducing here.

" He has seven rule of thumbs for training:

ROT # 1. In order to train a dog, the trainer must be smarter than the dog.
#2. Teach gently until the dog shows that it knows; then enforce firmly thereafter.
#3. Remember the seven-second rule. The dog must be corrected or a command enforced within 7 seconds and before another action intervenes. The sooner the better for the correction.
#4. A dog, almost always associates any reward/punishment or enforcement with what it is doing at the time or most recently.
#5. When the dog is being corrected or punished for some undesirable behavior, keep your mouth shut. Don't let unpleasantness get connected to your voice.
#6. Consistency and repetition are keys.
#7. When teaching a dog a command, short sessions throughout the week are better than long concentrated sessions on one or two days.

These are good basic principles to follow.

Solon

[Winchey]

I believe pointing is a natural reaction for most animals before trying to catch an animal it has snuck up on. Through breeding we have enhanced that moment of collection so that the dogs holds it longer. Their reward for it is they get to retrieve a bird.

Ezzy

I agree, I am just facinated by a notion that I can only explain through examples. An agility dog can be trained to do something it doesen't really want to do, IE jump over a jump because it learns that it gets a reward ,treat, gets to tug, gets a retrieve or whatever if it performs correctly. But with "some" dogs, in agility for instance there is a point where actually doing the jump itself, that it didn't really like doing in the first place becomes more rewarding to the dog then the actual reward that was used to motivate the dog in the first place. For a hunting example, you may agree or disagree but I would venture to say that for many pointing breeds that remaining on point becomes more rewarding to the dog then the reward "shot bird" you used to get that behaviour of remaining in place rather than chasing in the first place.

[Soignie]

You probably aren't over using the word no, what you are doing is teaching the pup what the word means in her life and setting boundaries for her behaviour, use whatever word/phrase you want as long as you are consistent. Potty accidents are your fault and not the pups, she is doing what comes natural. After feeding the pup needs to go outside and relieve itself, again a couple hours later. You need to watch her for signs that she needs to go and take her outside before she has a chance in the house, never leave her loose and unattended in the house, crate train her now and she will be a much more welcome member of the household. When you do take her outside to relieve herself tell her to "get busy" or whatever phrase you wish and then praise her when she goes, pup will learn that when you tell her to get busy or whatever that it's time to get down to business. As for dragging a checkcord, pup is to young to be bothered with a checkcord now, especially in the woods, to easy to get tangled up and you don't want to stifle her exploration of new sights and sounds.

[4dabirds]

I believe pointing is a natural reaction for most animals before trying to catch an animal it has snuck up on. Through breeding we have enhanced that moment of collection so that the dogs holds it longer. Their reward for it is they get to retrieve a bird.

Ezzy

I agree, I am just facinated by a notion that I can only explain through examples. An agility dog can be trained to do something it doesen't really want to do, IE jump over a jump because it learns that it gets a reward ,treat, gets to tug, gets a retrieve or whatever if it performs correctly. But with "some" dogs, in agility for instance there is a point where actually doing the jump itself, that it didn't really like doing in the first place becomes more rewarding to the dog then the actual reward that was used to motivate the dog in the first place. For a hunting example, you may agree or disagree but I would venture to say that for many pointing breeds that remaining on point becomes more rewarding to the dog then the reward "shot bird" you used to get that behaviour of remaining in place rather than chasing in the first place.

I think you could argue that just being in the field hunting is reward for the dog . A lot of dogs do not get to retrieve or just do not retrieve but that does not diminish their desire to hunt. I found that when training using the launchers that the sight of the bird flying is reward. Once the dog is steady to wing and shot . then I allow the retrieve. Allowing the retrieve sooner encourages the dog to break.

[ezzy333]

I think you could argue that just being in the field hunting is reward for the dog . A lot of dogs do not get to retrieve or just do not retrieve but that does not diminish their desire to hunt. I found that when training using the launchers that the sight of the bird flying is reward. Once the dog is steady to wing and shot . then I allow the retrieve. Allowing the retrieve sooner encourages the dog to break.

I doubt that any of us has much idea what goes on it a dogs heaD but I think being in the field is what they live for and not a treat. And by retrieving all I really mean is getting the bird whether it gets to bring it back or not. But I think we all have seen a change in attitude fter the dog has retreived the bird so I am sure there is somekind of a connection between going to get the bird being a treat for them whether they actually bring it back or not.

Ezzy

[4dabirds]

I think you could argue that just being in the field hunting is reward for the dog . A lot of dogs do not get to retrieve or just do not retrieve but that does not diminish their desire to hunt. I found that when training using the launchers that the sight of the bird flying is reward. Once the dog is steady to wing and shot . then I allow the retrieve. Allowing the retrieve sooner encourages the dog to break.

I doubt that any of us has much idea what goes on it a dogs heaD but I think being in the field is what they live for and not a treat. And by retrieving all I really mean is getting the bird whether it gets to bring it back or not. But I think we all have seen a change in attitude fter the dog has retreived the bird so I am sure there is somekind of a connection between going to get the bird being a treat for them whether they actually bring it back or not.

Ezzy

I agree ezzy they definitely get fired up when they get to retrieve the bird. I just think the sight of the bird flying is reward as well.

[Winchey]

I think you could argue that just being in the field hunting is reward for the dog . A lot of dogs do not get to retrieve or just do not retrieve but that does not diminish their desire to hunt. I found that when training using the launchers that the sight of the bird flying is reward. Once the dog is steady to wing and shot . then I allow the retrieve. Allowing the retrieve sooner encourages the dog to break.

I doubt that any of us has much idea what goes on it a dogs heaD but I think being in the field is what they live for and not a treat. And by retrieving all I really mean is getting the bird whether it gets to bring it back or not. But I think we all have seen a change in attitude fter the dog has retreived the bird so I am sure there is somekind of a connection between going to get the bird being a treat for them whether they actually bring it back or not.

Ezzy

Yes they are hard wired to love the field, but less hard wired to do things the way we want them to. Example of a dog wanting to rip every bird and chase it to the hills. Dog does something right for a change (holds point for a few seconds through dumb luck), you shoot the bird, dog gets to retrieve, starts performing that behaviour more often, gets to retrieve more, gets praised more (more reward) for doing things the way you want him to. But at some point, some dogs will like holding that point more than the rewards you used to get him to hold it in the first place is what I meen, whether you continue to shoot the birds and allow him to retrieve or not.

Of course they live for the field and not treats, just as they live for the field and are not just trying to avoid getting hit with the e-collar. Both are just tools to get the dog to perform the correct behavior. Dog only working for treats is the same as dog only working correctly when he has the e-collar on. Both are examples of what happens if you don't train properly.