Need help with a biting puppy, 4 months old

Guinness & Doug · Post by **Guinness & Doug** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:44 pm

Need some advice for my 4 month old pup that is biting. I've gleaned others' advice in the Forum, but to no avail. He just loves to mouth (which I don't have a problem with), but will often get excited and insist on chewing on fingers and pant legs. He has lots of other toys and we divert his attention to these when possible. We've lately taken to holding his mouth and head so as not to hurt him, and hold him there until he settles, repeating, 'no biting'. This will work for about ten seconds, then he just repeats the behavior. We don't want to hit him, of course. He's a dominant male and is hard-headed. Will this behavior pass as he ages, or is it a problem we should be dealing with aggressively? I know he'll be teething soon, if he isn't already - so will this be a consideration as well?
Other than the biting, Guinness is a great pup (he's a Springer by the way). Can someone help me?

Doug
Coutts, AB.

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:53 pm

If he's in any way a "velcro-dog" (dog that absolutely loves human attention) then when he bites hard just screetch really loud and really high-pitched, and leave the room. Don't allow him to follow you - close the door or something. Wait for a short period of time, say, 30 seconds at most, then come back in and start playing again.

Your behavior will mimic that of a littermate in that he will begin to understand that when he plays he absolutely cannot get rough and bite otherwise the playing stops. Immediately.

We did that with our viz pup and now, at almost 2 years, if he ever uses his mouth to grab something when playing (like my hand if I'm holding his paws so he can't move or something) he only lays his mouth on my hands and then looks at me. He won't dare apply any pressure. All of this was achieved without any physical contact to the pup.

sudiegirl · Post by **sudiegirl** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:55 pm

i am sure i will be jumped all over for this.... but i would take what you are doing to the next level.
if he is THAT dominant of a pup ... the next time he does this.... i would calmly but quickly flip him on his back and hold him down (don't scare him, but be firm), hold his mouth like you have been doing, and say NO in a firm firm voice.... don't scream or try to scare him, but show him who is boss. he needs to stay put until he quits squirming and squalling and then YOU let him up. so he knows he is getting up b/c YOU are letting him up. keep in mind that you are just showing him who is boss, NOT trying to terrorize him or anything.
when he stops freaking out (which he probably will freak out about being held on his back) and tries it again (if he tries it again).... repeat step one. we used this method w/ our pup when he started that biting trash.... and it changed our world. he had tons more respect for us (and for our kids..... which is who he was after.... so we had to "help" our kids w/ this method b/c he was stronger than they were)
it did not hurt his confidence at all .... it just showed him where his place was in the "pack"

jobird · Post by **jobird** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:05 pm

Doug,
I have a 4 month old shorthair that is very similar. Everything goes in her mouth including human toes and fingers. What I have found that works is to grab her bottom jaw and roll her lip inside over her teeth. Then when she is biting down, she is biting down on her own lip. I say "no bite" and hold her with her biting her lip for a second and then let her go. It is working well, and while she isn't getting less mouthy, she is a lot more conscious of what she is putting in her mouth and the amount of pressure she applies. Its the kind of problem that they may grow out of, but its easier to deal with as a puppy. Its a bad time for them right now with their teeth coming out and their new teeth coming in. If you want to create a sort of teething ring for your boy, take a rope toy and soak it in water then wring out some of the excess and freeze the rope. Just like a baby, the frozen rope seems to numb their gums and give them some relief as they teethe. Enjoy your puppy.

Janna

jkoehler · Post by **jkoehler** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:10 pm

What has worked for me is when they bite or get going at the hands I take my thumb and press it in the pups bottom mouth where the tongue and bottom meet, kind of like what you do when you hold a bass and take the lure out. I have had great luck with that, only had to do that about three four times and problem solved.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:11 pm

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... ght=biting

My response to another puppy biting poster have fun

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:00 pm

Obedience training. Start now.

SwitchGrassWPG · Post by **SwitchGrassWPG** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:41 pm

An obedience trainer in a club I belonged to insisted on biting them back.

gundogguru · Post by **gundogguru** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:00 pm

That's what I do I bite them back and growl at them. Lets them know not to do that and reinforces that I am Alpha.

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:14 pm

I wouldn't want my face that close to a biter.

Sit before eating, stay, come to call, down with chin on paws or floor, you go out door first. All those obedience things quickly show the puppy its order in your family group, and many of them should have the whole family involved.

Also some pups can get a bit too boisterous when they are tired or when they are hungry, so if pup starts this behavior certain times of the day it can be a cue for a nap in the crate with a couple biscuits for a top up.

Post by **Ayres** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:33 pm

Ok, just noticed that the dog is 4 months old. That is getting up there.. should have already figured out how to properly play. Most likely the biting is actually a dominance issue. Don't tolerate it, like others have said.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:38 pm

Pointing breed I would highly recommend NOT teaching sit..This is another can of worms but Sitting is a submissive command which can lead to undersired behaviors out training and in the field which is just better not starting...Save sit for after the bird work training is finished

Treat the pup as a mother dog would in some respects the method make your action in direct relation to the pups actions..do not make an issue with words you can use the finger method or snapping of teh nose with your hand
I use is just one of many successful ways to help teach a pup that if they want to bite I will teach them that having my hand in their mouth will be under MY rules Not theirs...Thus this takes the fun and testing out of their control plus also sets them up for some future training methods down the road

What ever you decide ..a pup will only learn what it is allowed to learn and No dog grows out of undesired behaviors with out some form of proper redirection of those undesired behaviors

Post by **Ayres** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:40 am

kninebirddog wrote:This is another can of worms but Sitting is a submissive command which can lead to undersired behaviors out training and in the field which is just better not starting...Save sit for after the bird work training is finished

There are many many threads on whether or not to teach the sit command. Yes, it may be considered a "sumbissive" command because it is one that a pup will learn quickly and may revert to when pressured. But so is the "here/come" command. Nobody ever says to not teach a pup to come. But what does pup do in the field when confused and pressured? Become a boot-licker.

I personally feel that the sit command is harmless because the effects are just as easily fixed as any other "submissive" command. From the opinions I've heard expressed around the forums, I'd say it's about 50/50 on whether it's recommended or not. Definately not a cut and dry issue.

Maverick · Post by **Maverick** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:02 am

I have to agree with Kninebirddog on the sitting thing. I have experienced the issues that can arrise when a young dog is taught to sit. My wife taught my female to sit against my wishes because the obediance trainer told her it would not be a problem at all.
Well she was wrong!! It took me quite a while to get her out of that and it still pops up from time to time although not very often, and I had the help of a pro to fix the problem.
Fact is why teach something that is or may cause you problems later on. Teach whoa and here and get on to the bird work.
JMHO

Mav....

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:04 am

hey folks, lets go back to the facts. Guinness is a springer, not a pointer. sitting, or "hupping" on the flush, is a part of their expected performance. thus, teaching the dog to sit or not at an early age is really not an issue springer people worry too much about, they just do it. retriever people also.

second, Guinness is only four months old. at this point, the pup is only 6 to 8 weeks out of the litter. and in the litter, like any pup, Guinness learned to chew on his littermate. it is what they do.

aggression, of the type that becomes a serious issue for the owners, is a trait that does not generally reflect itself until the pup is an early adolescent. 9 months to a year. that is the point when they begin to mature sexually, and if they are going to be dominant and aggressive, it starts to show at that time.

at 4 months though, Guinness is the equivalent of a 2 year old child - going through the terrible twos but quite a lot of personality formation left to go.

have seen a number of young pups of several breeds that have this trait, chasing pant legs and biting at ankles. ouch, it hurts, cause those little pup teeth are needle sharp.

now it is possible to have a "bad seed," a pup that is aggressive from the start, stays aggressive, and is always aggressive and a handful. can't diagnose that over the Internet.

but from the sounds of it, I would say this is normal pup development, you see it in some pups of any breed, and they grow out of it.

it does not hurt to help them grow out of it though. the trick of inserting your finger and curling their lip so they are biting themselves helps. also, hitting the pup with two fingers across the top of the muzzle LIGHTLY, and saying no, will discourage it. using a rolled up newspaper, fly swatter, anything light, and LIGHTLY striking the pup while saying no, will discourage it. did i remember to say LIGHTLY. we are not trying to hurt here.

in the litter, momma disciplines with quick bites on the neck and accompanying noisy growl. if pups persist, they will get a chewing of the muzzle, almost as though mom is going to swallow their whole muzzle. it says "I could eat you if I wanted so don't mess with me." but mom is not hurting. she knows just how hard to bite, and she is only trying to get a point across.

unless you have a truly aggressive pup of the type that can be a lifelong problem, it is unlikely this is anything serious. they grow out of it in a couple of months. if they don't, then consider stronger measures. for now, discourage it, just get your point across, don't hurt. and all members of the family need to participate, or pup will quit doing it with you, but still will rag on the kids.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:33 am

I think after reading the opinions on this post I will let the grandchildren play with a loaded gun. After all, they MAY shoot someone but probably not.. But if they do we might have more yet.

I know it sounds stupid but it fits in here someplace. I hear people trying to decide what to do when it has been well documented that teaching sit MAY be a problem but probably not.

I sometimes wonder what is the purpose of reading and listening to someone with a lot more experience than I have if I'm not going to listen or learn anything anyway. Guess the answer dates back quite awhile to an episode in a garden somewhere and the people were told not to eat the apples but they knew better so they didn't listen either.

My point is why take the chance when we know it happens? And what makes it even more senseless in my opinion there are other things you can teach that accomplishes the exact same thing.

OK, you have read my diatribe, explain once again your reasons for teaching something that MAY come back to bite you big time. I believe many of the same people who will dismiss the MAY from this area are the same ones that advocate FF because your dog MAY NOT retrieve when and how you want it to. Does that make sense?

Ezzy

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:40 am

John, You are right on. Sit for a springer is a requirement. And the point of a 4 month old biting is normal and natural and probably required if it is to grow up normally. Your methods of correction are the most direct and easiest to adminster and the one requirement if the pup is to learn is that correction has to take place directly and immediately. Make it unplesant to bite you and the pup will stop as it learns.

Good Post!

Ezzy

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:09 am

I just carry a toy around with me when my boy is inside. When he goes to bite me i just slip the toy infront of him and he gets a mouth full of stuffed animal. He just wags his tail and walks away. I have noticed his biting is coming to a slow down with this. now h just lays his head on my hand or foot.

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:17 pm

I would like to point out that I deliberately listed submissive behaviours to teach this pup.

I have never had a pup at 4 months that bit or grabbed my clothes, that is or should be well past by 4 months. This is why I believe obedience training, especially for showing pup how to submit is in order in this case.

Post by **Ayres** » Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:54 pm

ezzy333 wrote:OK, you have read my diatribe, explain once again your reasons for teaching something that MAY come back to bite you big time. I believe many of the same people who will dismiss the MAY from this area are the same ones that advocate FF because your dog MAY NOT retrieve when and how you want it to. Does that make sense?

I'll take it on, here goes:

The reason why people don't like to teach a pointing dog to sit is not because the dog will sit on point - in fact, it's been discussed in other threads and generally agreed that the reason is because the dog will sit when it is confused and pressured in training. This most often happens when enforcing the woah command.

That being the case, it is not the sit command that is the problem, it's the pressure and confusion. Sitting is merely the effect of the pressure and confusion. The dog reverts back to a well known command that is easy to learn and simple to perform instead of doing what you want him to do - woah. This well known command can be sit or, in lieu of sit, here/come or heel. The latter two usually are just not identified as being the result of pressure.

Now take an example of three dogs. The first dog does not feel pressured and woahs perfectly. Doesn't matter if it was taught to sit or not.

The second dog is taught to sit and experiences pressure and confusion. When given the woah command it tries to sit. The fix: The handler lifts the dog's rear off the ground, says woah, and praises the dog. Repeated as many times as necessary but quickly fixed so long as the pressure and confusion are averted. The effect: The dog stays where it was supposed to stay, just not in proper form until the pressure is removed by physically lifting the dog's rear and praising the result.

The third dog is not taught to sit but is taught to come. He experiences pressure and confusion as well. As a result, when given the woah command he droops his head and walks to the handler. The fix: The handler physically lifts the dog up and places it back on the place it stood when the woah command was first given. Once there the handler praises the dog to remove the pressure. Repeated as many times as necessary. The effect: The dog does not stay where it is supposed to stay unless physically lifted back to the original spot. The handler often times doesn't realize that pressure and confusion is the reason for the dog's insistence on heeling and instead just thinks that the dog hasn't quite learned the command yet.

Now this illustration isn't a textbook example of what happens every time. Anyone that's been training dogs for just a couple hours understands that things hardly ever happen the exact same way. But, it does pull out and highlight my reasoning for saying that teaching the sit command is not going to ruin a dog. What it basically boils down to is that the sit command doesn't cause the dog to sit at an inopportune time because the command was never given. The pressure and confusion causes the dog to revert back to an easily learned and performed command. If that easily learned command happens to be sit, then the dog sits. If it's here/come or heel, then the dog will walk back to your feet. Either way the cause is the same and any effect other than the desired result is equally the wrong result. So, instead of addressing the effect I advocate addressing the actual cause. Treat the problem, not the symptoms so to speak. I hope that's clear.

Finally, I do need to clarify that my dog was not taught to sit obedience style. He doesn't sit after heeling or think that sitting is the end of every command. He sits only when he's told to sit, and sometimes even then not very well.

Also, I'm sure that there will be plenty of people who disagree with my reasoning and plenty of people who do agree. I didn't type this all out to elicit people to subscribe to my theory, I merely am relating my experience coupled with my logic in a form that people can read and learn from. It's up to them to take away from it what they want at their discretion.

Guinness & Doug · Post by **Guinness & Doug** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:39 am

Thanks for all the advice, guys. I know Guinness is teething now; he's lost two bottom incisors already (and has broken off two top canines on something...will keep an eye on that). I'll do what I can to curb his desire to bite - and hopefully when his new chompers come in, his biting will subside. Thanks again!

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:16 pm

get him some chew toys of some kind in the meantime. the urge to chew in order to get the new teeth to break thru is pretty strong.

Post by **Ayres** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:27 pm

What do you mean by "broken off" the two top canines? Are the teeth physically broken, as in 'broken in half,' or do you mean that he's lost the top two canines?

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:33 pm

Think he said he has lost the bottom ones and broken the top two. Probably pulling on kennel wire or maybe the cage. Not too unusal for a pup that is ready to drop those small baby teeth. They break pretty easy.

Ezzy

Mntngoat · Post by **Mntngoat** » Mon May 01, 2006 1:53 pm

Rex is 4 months old & teething too. We have a collection of 3 of his teeth that we have found so far. When he is playing and starts to bite I substitute my arm for a rubber bone or kong.

Michael

Gun Dog Forum

Need help with a biting puppy, 4 months old

Need help with a biting puppy, 4 months old

biting

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