Wanting to get close to bird before locking up

[Colleen]

We have been doing a lot of training with our two GSPs (ages 2.5 and 1.5), and so far they have been making great progress. We did get a pretty late start on them, though

Anyway, my male (the 2.5 year old) has recently been wanting to get very close to the bird before he locks up on point. With his body language, it is obvious when he catches the scent cone, and then when he is getting close, but he'll do the semi-creep thing - faster than a creep, but in the low-body, hunting mode position - until he is within 4-6 feet of the bird. I don't know if he wants to see it before he points it, or if he just wants to be closer to it. There have been several times he has found and pointed a bird, and then we either couldn't find it or the stupid thing wouldn't flush because it was deep in a heavy thorn bush. So this may have contributed to this bad habit. I know that persistence and shooting the birds he points as soon as he smells them will help this, but I don't want to not shoot the birds he gets really close to before pointing, because I'm afraid he'll get frustrated with his inept humans and start busting them.

So, any advice for how we can get him to point when he smells the bird and knows where it is, as opposed to when he's 4 feet away from it? Thanks.

[spfeifer]

If you can tell that he has truly picked the bird and is starting his creeping mark the spot in your mind. Once he has stopped pick him up and return him to your marked spot. Using a planted bird or if you have a bird launcher this works the best. Do not shoot the bird if he moves from the marked spot. Give him a lot of praise when he locks up on the bird and none if he creeps.

[Wagonmaster]

i have not had a lot of luck with the method of picking them up and setting them back. they seem to think it is just part of the program that they creep in and you set them back, over and over.

there are a few other methods that i have used though. number ones is to put the dog on a check cord and stop the dog when it hits scent. i personally would use a JASA pinch collar or a prong collar, and just give the check cord a snap, rather than hauling back on the dog with the check cord.

another method is to use radio controlled release traps and release the bird as soon as the dog hits the scent cone and fails to point. this can be combined with the check cord as above, to initially get the dog to understand it needs to stop earlier.

last but by no means least is to work the dog on wild birds for awhile, if you have access to them. they will not tolerate creeping and the dog will soon learn that.

[SwitchGrassWPG]

Definitely need to teach whoa. A remote launcher, check cord and if possible, an assistant are needed. As soon as you see him hit the scent, whoa him with the cord and give the command.

[Colleen]

Switchgrass, we are working on whoa right now. Like I said, we started late with both our dogs and really had no idea what we were doing :roll: We are doing whoa with the pinch collar and check cord, and he just doesn't seem to get it. I whoa him with the check cord and he just kinda stands there and looks around like an idiot. Either it's not clicking or he's faking it. We do have two people, my fiance and I go out together to train them, so we always have two sets of hands.

[Margaret]

Some dogs are really very clever at picking up on the fact that the bird is not "right" and that they can get close to it, maybe they feel if the sneak on up they might be able to ....(bunch of brain cells just died)...grab it.

My suggestion is that you will have to train only on a long line and/or go find some wild birds that won't tolerate your dog getting close without flying off.

If your wild birds have chicks now you will have to leave that for a couple months or so, though.

[Ayres]

Just read this topic and I have to say that I would have recommended most of what John said. Start with the remote release launchers and pop the bird as soon as the dog scents the bird and fails to point. Do not shoot the bird. If, after a few times, the dog does not catch on that he cannot creep in on the bird without it flying away, combine with the checkcord.

I tend to go against the grain on the benefits of using wild birds when training a dog for any level of graded field work (field trials, hunt tests, etc.). Remember that when using wild birds you give up control of the training situation. I doubt that there would be much harm in running a dog with this problem on wild birds particularly because wild birds will tend to flush faster, but you're not guaranteed that the bird won't flush before the dog even hits the scent cone (which may cause some confusion) nor are you guaranteed where the bird is. This may make your training a bit more difficult to accomplish and more time consuming.

[Ryan]

I CC my dogs as soon as they get birdy I stop them.

[SwitchGrassWPG]

I have had a professional trainer show me a method for teaching whoa to a dog and only requires a post, check cord and a leash and collar.

Attach the check cord and leash to the collar. Run the check cord along the underside of the dog and do a half-hitch around the dog's loin. Leave about 10' of slack in the check cord and tie to the post.

At this point you can take hold of the lead and begin leading your dog away from the post. As you see the check cord tighten, tell the dog whoa. If it doesn't stop, the loop around it's loin will tighten. The dog may make it seem like its going to die but should quickly learn.

I watched this done with a Weim at a training day and by the third time, the dog knew to stop. It wouldn't even budge by him gently pulling on the leash. Like anything, you can't just stop there, it take lots of repetition and positive reenforcement. Whe consequence for not compling are already built in and the dog is basically causing its own discomfort. This most likely won't be associated with youas you are at the opposite end of the discomfort where the dog can see you.

[Maurice]

If you have a good open area to train and don't want to buy remote launchers you could use wild caught pigeons and card them.. It will put your dogs to pointing and showing respect for the birds.. Checkcord work and carded pigeons will get the dogs to standing off the birds and not crowding them, just an idea that might help.

Mo