Question for you all about training

[calibra]

Hi

Rosie is very good with the following commands

Sit
Lay
Stay
Heel
leave
wee-wee
go to mat
etc ect

However when she is out in the woods sniffing/tracking she only responds to come. It's as if she is having to much fun using her nose.

Any suggestions?.

Thanks

James

[tailcrackin]

Whew........poor pointer, thats an awful lot of terms, kinda confusing me, and earlier you questioned nervous?? UMMM.... Jonesy

[calibra]

You reckon thats alot of commands?.

I learned all those in puppy class. She seems to love to learn. To be honest, she learns commands really easy.

She's now top (not bragging) of puppy class and can do them really well inside a hall.

James

[calibra]

Break down

Sit - makes the dog sit
Lay - Makes the dog lay down
Stay - Makes the dog stay
Heel - Makes the dog heel
leave - Leave the object
wee-wee - Go to toilet
go to mat - Go to mat is go to the mat and you get a treat
come - come to me.

I thought (well was told) these are the best commands for a dog. My sisters springer and husky does these commands too. (both been to the same training school)

Like I say, she's real sharp inside a hall, but on the field she ignores most of them apart from come

oh, forgot to say, I spend 30mins aday practising.

James

[Wagonmaster]

James--

Here is the deal. When we train hunting dogs we do not start out with obedience class type obedience. ya, some people do. but you are going to start to see with your own dog why the majority of hunters don't.

we usually go just the other way around. build up the dog's confidence, and its desire to find birds, and its pointing ability around birds. get the dog really excited about the whole hunting deal. then put some obedience on it.

the specific reasons for this are many. but the basic reason is that we eventually want the dog to go out and hunt for birds that are not the ones that are going to flush from under our feet, but the one's we would not have found without the dogs help. so the dog needs to learn some degree of independence. if you start with a very heavy dose of obedience, you squash the independence out of the dog. it then works like a robot, goes where you send it, does not go where you do not send it, "finds" game only when it thinks you approve, does not find game when it thinks you may not approve, etc.

find some birds and get that dog into them. let the dog do what comes naturally. getting excited - on the part of the dog - is just exactly what you want at this stage. being tops in a sit-stay class at 7 months, is really not where a Pointer should be, mate. Have you seen any birds in that obedience class?

to each their own. the European style trainers will more often start this way than American style trainers. but they also start with dogs that are much have much more "hardness" or "firmness" as they call it, than a Pointer. Pointer doesn't need the obedience work, it needs the birds. it learns the rest pretty easily.

do this: go buy two books. Bill Tarrant/Delmar Smith's "The Best Way to Train Your Bird Dog" and "Wing and Shot" by a fella named Robert Wehle, breeder of the Elhew Pointer line. Read them through. Come to your own conclusions about what traing needs to be done when.

Good luck.

[gundogguru]

[quote="Wagonmaster"]James--




Pointer doesn't need the obedience work, it needs the birds. it learns the rest pretty easily.

So what your say is that you should let a young dog just run amuck with no obedience till they figure out the bird work. that is one one of the most asinine statement I have ever heard.

[Vizsla Vince]

James--



do this: go buy two books. Bill Tarrant/Delmar Smith's "The Best Way to Train Your Bird Dog" and "Wing and Shot" by a fella named Robert Wehle, breeder of the Elhew Pointer line. Read them through. Come to your own conclusions about what traing needs to be done when.

Good luck.

Pay particular attention to Delmar Smith's "happy timing". This entails NO trainig in the field for the first YEAR. This is to build up pup's confidence in the field. We want pup to think that the field is the BEST place in the world to be. "Come" is the only command I use in the field w/ my 5 mo old Vizsla.

[gundogguru]

I have my pups in the field as soon as they get there last set of shots. and they have nothing but fun and positive experiences. they know that when we get here they are going to have fun. This stuff about waiting till the pups is a year old is just absurd.

[Vizsla Vince]

I have my pups in the field as soon as they get there last set of shots. and they have nothing but fun and positive experiences. they know that when we get here they are going to have fun. This stuff about waiting till the pups is a year old is just absurd.

I don't mean to keep them from the field for a year! By all means, get those pups out there!!! Just hold off of the heavy stuff for a good long while. Delmar says a year, but we all can gauge our own dogs individually. Yard work should start alot sooner, just keep it in the yard.

[Ayres]

Just to throw some fuel on this fire.... the youngest record AKC Master Hunter was finished this spring, at just over 7 months old.

And as far as the commands go, I taught my dog the following:

Sit
Down
Stay (didn't enforce this one very much, purposfully. If he stays for 5 seconds that's all I usually need)
Go Potty (again, very useful for a dog that lives inside and needs to go wizz on a cold winter night)
Heel (just don't do this one very much, but he knows it)

I never say any of those commands in the field. Then,

Woah (enforced all the time, purposfully)
Leave It (this one is very handy, on "found" trash, hot spots in the grass, and other dogs)
Fetch
Here
Alright / Let's Go (release and cast)


These dogs aren't dumb. They really can learn a whole host of commands. Some may say "poor pointer," but I say "that's a dog that will end up being the apple of his master's eye." Just don't expect your dog to be robotic (and don't encourage it), don't give a command unless you can enforce it, and don't give an unnecessary command.

And, teaching your dog these commands for basic house manners is not training it for obedience. There's a big difference.

[Ridge-Point]

Just depends on what you want. I don't bother training any commands for about the first year, except come. First year is gun intro and bird intro, retrieving to hand, handling out in the field and teaching them to go with you, pointing, teach them to not pull on the leash, ect... And the second year I don't teach any commands either, but I do teach them to hold thier birds through the shot until released by thier name, I also steady them on retrieving about the same time and teach them to heel after they retrieve something and stand until I release them by thier name. I don't bother much with yard work, I always like to trian around birds out in the field, like bill west and bill gibbons like to do. Really helps keep the style. After two years old I might teach them to heel on a command and maybe stop and face me on a whistle for hand signals, but pretty much all my dogs know by the time they are finished is heel, come, fetch, and kennel. When they kennel they are expected to stay there until released by there name. that all will pretty much get you through a utility test. Just the way I do it, a good trainer could probably make a nice dog with just about any method.

Justin

[portsider44]

I can see the reason behind both ways. However I think it comes down to how the dog is raised.

Seems like a higher % of folks with several dogs that are kenneled outside, prefer to teach come & then back into the OB stuff later.

Where as most owners of 1-2 indoor dogs prefer to get a good foundation of OB down early. WHich makes living with an indoor dog easier/more enjoyable.

I am not sure if I agree with the concept of having too many commands, if done properly.

[Ryan]

My dog is an inside dog so he needs his manners. I taught mine to sit by the backdoor when he comes in. Thn I taught him heel on a leash. O ya and come. SOme poeple dont like this but I taught him sit as well.

He needs to be prespectful and behave in the house before he can be in the feild IMO.

I have seen some great bird dogs that hunt awsome but I wouldnt want them in the house.

I take great pride in having my dogs beable to preform wll in the feild then going back to the house and somone saying "wow he really behaves him/her self in the house.

Noone likes a bird dog that stals oints and noone likes a bird dog that is jumping on you and beggin for food everytime you eat. JMO

[snips]

I have NO INTEREST in finishing a MH at 7 months. You see, I still want a dog at 7, 8, 9, yrs to still have that shine. When you train dogs to that level at such a young age there is no way of knowing if they will have that desire when they are 2. Some might, but I would bet the majority would not be much. JMO

[Margaret]

There is absolutely nothing wrong in teaching your pointer these commands.
I do think 1/2hr a day is a bit long, but not if you do 1/4hr in the morning and 1/4hr in the afternoon.
Also I would suggest you break the training up too, not try and run it all in one lesson as the dog will learn and remember it's lesson quicker if you keep them seperate.

For instance; you could spend the morning 1/4hr doing sit and drop and stay.
The Afternoon lesson could be heel, sit and come to sit in front.

Don't forget to do your play retrieves too, this is a lesson that you make into a game and slowly smarten up into a well delivered retrieve.

When you are out in the fields, you could if you wish do a little heel work, sit and come to call on leash before you let her off for her romp. While she is hunting about, don't nag at her or call her in unless you feel you really need to. When she comes up to you of her own accord give her a pat and praise her then send her out again. If she is reluctant to come to call, then reinforce this on a long leash or a rope before you let her off for her run, and call her to you a few times, but not nagging at her by calling her a lot of times, and try and do this when she is heading in your direction.
Then praise her well and send her out again. Take an interest in what she is doing, don't chatter or dream, and she will involve you in the hunt and be more attentive to you.

As I am sure the vast majority of us need a companion hunting dog that is well behaved from a young age, and we have no trouble with our dogs desire to hunt even though they also are obedient to commands (but still encourged to be independent in the field)
I can assure you that there will be no conflict of interests between those few commands you have taught and hunting - UNLESS you become a "control freak" and the dog is not allowed to be itself (within reason of course) in the field.

[Ryan]

There is absolutely nothing wrong in teaching your pointer these commands.
I do think 1/2hr a day is a bit long, but not if you do 1/4hr in the morning and 1/4hr in the afternoon.
Also I would suggest you break the training up too, not try and run it all in one lesson as the dog will learn and remember it's lesson quicker if you keep them seperate.

For instance; you could spend the morning 1/4hr doing sit and drop and stay.
The Afternoon lesson could be heel, sit and come to sit in front.

Don't forget to do your play retrieves too, this is a lesson that you make into a game and slowly smarten up into a well delivered retrieve.

When you are out in the fields, you could if you wish do a little heel work, sit and come to call on leash before you let her off for her romp. While she is hunting about, don't nag at her or call her in unless you feel you really need to. When she comes up to you of her own accord give her a pat and praise her then send her out again. If she is reluctant to come to call, then reinforce this on a long leash or a rope before you let her off for her run, and call her to you a few times, but not nagging at her by calling her a lot of times, and try and do this when she is heading in your direction.
Then praise her well and send her out again. Take an interest in what she is doing, don't chatter or dream, and she will involve you in the hunt and be more attentive to you.

As I am sure the vast majority of us need a companion hunting dog that is well behaved from a young age, and we have no trouble with our dogs desire to hunt even though they also are obedient to commands (but still encourged to be independent in the field)
I can assure you that there will be no conflict of interests between those few commands you have taught and hunting - UNLESS you become a "control freak" and the dog is not allowed to be itself (within reason of course) in the field.

Well Said

[EastBeast]

I have read that teaching "sit" to a pointer should be one of the last commands taught - to keep the dog from sitting under "the pressure" of training. Has anyone noticed this to be true?

[Ayres]

First of all, I agree that training a dog to finish master at 7 months is quite a bit of pressure, and a dog that can do that comes along very rarely. I wouldn't push a pup to do it. Just saying that it has been done.

I have read that teaching "sit" to a pointer should be one of the last commands taught - to keep the dog from sitting under "the pressure" of training. Has anyone noticed this to be true?

Oh no, let's not get into this one. Do a search on " teach sit command " and look at the many threads that produces. You should get varying degrees of answers and reasoning from that. We don't need to reduce every training thread into a "to sit or not to sit" debate though, so let's keep that question out of this thread so it can stay on topic.

[Ayres]

With all the dogs I have trained ...

Sit seems to be one of the easiest things to teach ...

Or, we can just ignore what the moderator says. :roll:

[Ayres]

Here are three past threads on the topic of teaching sit.

To Sit or Not To Sit?

Sit command for Pointer Pups

[Poll]: To Sit or Not To Sit?

The above two posts have been deleted to keep this thread on topic, and the content has been PM'd to the original posters so that they may post their thoughts in one of the appropriate threads above.

[Ridge-Point]

I have read that teaching "sit" to a pointer should be one of the last commands taught - to keep the dog from sitting under "the pressure" of training. Has anyone noticed this to be true?

Sorry about the off topic post, I was just adding my opinion for this question. I guess I should have linked to the threads that you did instead. Will make a note of it in the future.

Thanks

Justin

[Ayres]

I knew EastBeast's question had the potential to throw this thread off topic so that's why I posted this right after it:

Oh no, let's not get into this one. Do a search on " teach sit command " and look at the many threads that produces. You should get varying degrees of answers and reasoning from that. We don't need to reduce every training thread into a "to sit or not to sit" debate though, so let's keep that question out of this thread so it can stay on topic.

So, I realize why you posted and there's no harm done. But for the sake of the reasoning above, let's let this thread not evolve into a sit question.

[AHGSP]

I have NO INTEREST in finishing a MH at 7 months. You see, I still want a dog at 7, 8, 9, yrs to still have that shine. When you train dogs to that level at such a young age there is no way of knowing if they will have that desire when they are 2. Some might, but I would bet the majority would not be much. JMO

AMEN!!

Long story short: I have a pup that at 4 mo.s was pretty well COMPLETELY BROKE! Steady as a rock through the complete sequence, tap out for the release, would stand point for as long as I'd care to let her.... then I saw way too late what I had done. She just didn't really give a rats a$$ for finding birds... didn't blink, but just had no desire what-so-ever to really find birds. She would because I wanted her too, not because she wanted to. She had taken the training so well, that I pushed way too hard before I realized I had gone too far, too fast, too hard. I completely backed off and spent the next 6-7 mo.s keeping my mouth shut and trying to get her to chase and have fun again and then put her in her 1st JH test. She wouldn't handle for me the 1st day... just really didn't care to find the birds and was just out for a walk. LITERALLY! 2nd day I had my Wife, who had never even walked a brace before, run her on a whim and suddenly she was having "some" fun, finding birds and got a Qualifier with multiple good points. The Judges 1st question to me was "You've worked this dog on a lot of birds and hard haven't you?" Sheepishly, I said yes.... their reply... "You have her doing everything exactly as you want and she does everything perfect..... Now go back and start over and let her have fun. You need to let her have her desire and drive back"

Bella is now 14 mo.s old and just starting to reallly enjoy birds again and has 3 JH legs down, ALL handled by my Wife. Take it for what it is worth to you, thats just my .02 on what is too fast, too hard and too young from my experience. Let your pup have fun and don't put the screws down on them, you'll have a better dog for it in the long run.

FWIW

This was Bella at 4 mo.s on a 5-6 minute point....

[calibra]

Hi

Thanks for the feed back and replies. I am now starting to understand where everyone is coming from.

I have tried to find the books that were recommended earlier in this thread; however I couldn’t locate any here in the UK. I am keeping my eyes open on amazon.co.uk for a new copy.

Here is my story, and why I got a dog.

I brought the pointer because I wanted a dog as a pet. So as it was going to live in my house I decided to do house training. She picked everything up just fine and seems to enjoy learning. I then took her to puppy class so she could mix with other people as well as dogs and learn some new tricks. Again she loved it. Tonight is her last training session, and to be honest I will miss working with my dog there so I decided to role her in agility. After researching agility we decided this was not the route for her as she loves using her nose and likes going for walks.

I bumped in to a farmer, he turned around and said nice dog you have there. He then invited me and the dog to his shoots starting in November. I went away and thought about it and decided what the heck, Rosie and myself would love to do this.

So, as you can see, I don’t know anything about hunting and when I first brought Rosie she was going to be just your everyday house dog. She still is of course, however she will go out once a week flushing and beating starting this November.

I have booked Rosie in to training class for gun dogs. She starts tonmorrow, so wish me luck. I am hoping she will pick it up well and show the other dogs next November how to do it correctly.

The dog handlers that I will be beating with say there is no need for me to take my dog to classes as the dog will pick it up from the other dogs. However, I want to learn how to handle my dog properly before then and hopefully someone will notice she’s pretty good on her first season.

Forgot to mention, I went out last night with the dog. I stood still and said find. She found rabbits and chased them. She came back on command.

I was well happy, because the dog run miles chasing the rabbits, I thought I lost her at one point as she didn’t come back for 5mins. I decided not to blow on the whisle and gathered if she wants to come back, she could sniff me out . And she did, she cam running back. Now she knows what a rabbit smells like

[calibra]

Forgot to mention, I have never even shot a gun let alone know anything about hunting.

The reason why I joined this forum is to learn off you guys

Anyway, once again thanks for all your feed back (good and bad). I need all the help I can get.

James

[calibra]

Hi

I have ordered the following

"Gundog Training"
Keith Erlandson; Hardcover;

[Wagonmaster]

James-

We have pretty much missed the boat in the advice and information we have given you, and that includes me. I did not understand you are from the UK.

I don't pretend to know alot about hunting and dog training in the UK, but here is what I do understand. Gun ownership is not easy and hunting can be costly. So many people who own hunting breeds, do not own guns and do not shoot. I understand you do not. Dog owners are invited or employed by landowners to work their dogs in beating and flushing for driven shoots. Driven shoots involve a line of beaters, we would maybe call them drivers, sometimes with dogs and sometimes not, who move through the cover flushing birds towards the guns, who are in butts - we would call those blinds. The game that is harvested is owned by the landowner, and is sold.

There are some very stringent social and safety rules. Dogs need to be under a great deal of control, and I believe that the dogs used for beating in the UK are mainly flushers.

This is completely different from what we do here in the US. We have practically no driven shoots in the same sense that you would understand that. Sometimes, in hunting some types of game birds, we do what we call drives, in which a few people "post" in the area where the drive will end up, and the rest move through the cover like the beaters do. However, in our case, both the drivers (beaters) and the posters have guns, and can shoot. Thus, the dogs are used much more to produce birds for the drivers, than to drive them to the posters. The posters are really there to stop birds from running out the end of the drive, which they like to do quite a bit.

So we do some drives, but the vast majority of us do not do that. We simply walk through the cover with the dogs. Over there, it would be called roughshooting. The dogs are expected to find and locate game by pointing it, and to remain on point until the hunter shows up. Since we have quite a bit of open space, the dogs in my part of the country need to range out quite a bit. Sometimes around a quarter mile and more. And they have to be independent in searching for and pointing out birds. They need to hold point for quite awhile, until we find them.

Since you need to keep your dogs in much closer than we like to keep ours, and since there are some very stringent social rules about how beaters and dogs should behave in your driven shoots, you really need to find someone over there who can fill you in. There are a number of dog clubs there. You should find and join one.

I saw recently that there was an Internet forum forming for UK dog owners. Will try to find the link for you.

Our way of training would not suit your purposes very well, I don't think.

We also drive on the right side of the road and you on the left. I understand you pretty much get where you want to go and so do we. I have tried the driving over there and it works fine, except it can get a little hairy on the "wrong-way" freeways. Two different ways of arriving at the same result.

The rest of you guys, who wanted to turn this into a "sit-don't sit" debate, you really need to read the facts next time. The dog was already taught to sit. That was a given. So the question was, once the dog had already had quite a bit of obedience, but no training on birds, what would be the next step.

Sometimes we are supposed to try to help out, not just launch off into whatever off-the-point politicized debate suits our fancy.

[Breton13]

Hello all,
I've been waiting may years to get my dog (pick her up next weekend), and my comfort over the last years have been "Point! training the allseason birddog" by James Spencer. I love reading it, because it's humorous, as well as informative. And it's training for "common folks" like myself, with not a lot of equipment required.
I was just wondering if anyone else have read it, and would like to comment on the methods used, compared to their own experience. I need all the help I can get.....

[calibra]

> We have pretty much missed the boat in the advice and
> information we have given you, and that includes me. I did not
> understand you are from the UK.

Sorry, my fault I should have made that bit clear

> Gun ownership is not easy and hunting can be costly

Thats correct, I could never afford to own a gun let along pay the cost to shoot. The cost of shooting one day a week during (I may have the season out by a month or two) November to Feb is £1800.

> Dog owners are invited or employed by landowners to work their
> dogs in beating and flushing for driven shoots

Yup, this I what me and Rosie will be doing - But I 'd like to let her retrieve the bird too:-)

>There are some very stringent social and safety rules. Dogs need
> to be under a great deal of control, and I believe that the dogs
> used for beating in the UK are mainly flushers.

Thats correct as far as I know. The dogs in the hunt I am going too have never been trained to hunt - I am told they just pick it up off the other dogs. However, I would like to train mine properly.

> This is completely different from what we do here in the US. We
> have practically no driven shoots in the same sense that you
> would understand that. Sometimes, in hunting some types of
> game birds, we do what we call drives, in which a few
> people "post" in the area where the drive will end up, and the
> rest move through the cover like the beaters do. However, in our
> case, both the drivers (beaters) and the posters have guns, and
> can shoot. Thus, the dogs are used much more to produce birds
> for the drivers, than to drive them to the posters. The posters
> are really there to stop birds from running out the end of the
> drive, which they like to do quite a bit.

Sounds really good. I am in the wrong country...


> Since you need to keep your dogs in much closer than we like to
> keep ours, and since there are some very stringent social rules
> about how beaters and dogs should behave in your driven
> shoots, you really need to find someone over there who can fill
> you in. There are a number of dog clubs there. You should find
> and join one.

I have joined a gun club, however it's miles away. Thats is where my dog will be trained up.

> I saw recently that there was an Internet forum forming for UK
> dog owners. Will try to find the link for you.

If you could, that would be great

> Our way of training would not suit your purposes very well, I don't think.

OK, however I like to learn how you guys do it. I am in this for the fun more than anything.

> We also drive on the right side of the road and you on the left. I
> understand you pretty much get where you want to go and so
> do we. I have tried the driving over there and it works fine,
> except it can get a little hairy on the "wrong-way" freeways. Two
> different ways of arriving at the same result.

that is a very good way of putting it. Very good way

Thanks very much for the reply.

James

[Ryan]

Have you thought of doing a tracking class?

[Wagonmaster]

well, we are a big place, and we do alot of different things with pointing dogs here. and as you can tell, we argue about all of the different ways to train and run pointing dogs. a bad habit from some island nation we separated from years ago. can't get rid of it.

1. we hunt. we have everything from forest birds to prairie birds to mountain birds to desert birds, areas where the boudaries are small and the dog needs to be carefully controlled, and areas where you could run on horseback in one direction for days and not come to the end of it (not so many of those anymore), so there is quite a bit of variety in the game and the cover.

2. some of us train, and alot of us just buy a dog and take it out on the opener of hunting to see what it will do, so we can brag up its "natural instincts."

3. some of us run our dogs in pointing dog field trials. some of those are done off horseback, some from foot, some on wild birds, alot now days on stocked or planted birds. in some trials birds are shot and in others they are not shot, a blank gun is fired.

4. we have some versatile dog groups here, mainly the North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association, plus a couple of German organizations.

5. we have some preserve hunting, usually smaller areas where you pay by the bird to have birds planted and then you hunt them.

6. some of us put our dogs in dog shows.

7. some of us put our dogs through hunt tests, which test their training and hunting ability against a standard.

where would you like to start and what do you want to know?

[EastBeast]

Maybe some of the rest of us are new to pointing breeds too. Maybe they didn't realize they should do a search before they ask something. Maybe I have no idea of the "politics of sit", and frankly, have no wish to. Maybe I just had a question of my own. Sorry for bumming you all out.

[Ayres]

Woah there, EastBeast, I think you're reading way too much into this. All I was saying is that we need to keep this particular thread on topic. I didn't expect you to know about all the past threads and that's why I brought it to your attention. No need to get upset about it.

Now you do have the information, so I hope your questions can be answered from those threads. You can even ask more questions in those threads if you want and I'm sure many will reply.

A lot of people learn from this website and thus we like to keep the threads on their original topics to extract all possible information about those topics. That way, a question gets answered as thoroughly as possible rather than being glossed over while other questions are getting all the attention of the responses. From experience, I knew that the sit topic has been covered elsewhere and tends to be a topic that many will respond to, so I thought it best not to bring it up here, when it was not the original question, lest the original question get lost.

[Wagonmaster]

eastbeast-

my comment was not directed at you at all. there are plenty of people who have been on this board for awhile, who like to argue that issue. i was just suggesting that we all should have been thinking more in terms of helping calibra out, than rehashing that issue.