Force Fetch - Mouthing Question

troutbum13 · Post by **troutbum13** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 4:40 pm

I have a 18 month old griff, I am using smartfetch and have a question about mouthing. He took to hold really fast, after about 5 min he was lunging for the roller and would hold it until I commanded give, he will heel with it both on and off a lead. He knows it is a fetch object, and is eager to take it from me. But I can't get him to stop mouthing. I have tried cuffing under his chin and correcting him on the bridge of the nose, but it doesn't have any effect. When I am praising him, and scratching his chest he does great, but as soon as I stop scratching him he tilts his head back and starts mouthing the roller. I am not using any force for hold, just correcting the mouthing. Here is a video that shows what I mean http://youtu.be/T7F0zOaZYe8

Any ideas or tips? Everything except the mouthing tells me he is ready to move to fetch and an ear pinch, but I want to take care of this bad habit before we move on.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:10 pm

What I would do is go back put in mouth and I bump Under the chin as soon as the head begins to play around I would not allow it to go as far as shown in the you tube video..allowing the dog to pup head up and chomp and play it already quite a few steps behind in correction
Keep hand under the jaw and as soon as the jaw tries to open Take bent thumb joint and pop hard if dog is there with manners no correction begin to mouth immediate correction

Onk · Post by **Onk** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:35 pm

Very cool to see the problem in a video, good idea. Hope someone has the solution for you, maybe you can even shoot another video with the method that works for you. I for one learn more watching than reading!

pointshootretrieve · Post by **pointshootretrieve** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:48 pm

Maybe try a leash and training collar and pop the lead enough to unweight his front feet. How is this dog with a bird in his mouth or do you dare? I would also be using a soda can empty of course and anytime he tries to get on it and makes the slightest noise I would correct with a pop of the lead followed by the command

troutbum13 · Post by **troutbum13** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:49 pm

kninebirddog wrote:What I would do is go back put in mouth and I bump Under the chin as soon as the head begins to play around I would not allow it to go as far as shown in the you tube video..

Thanks for the help....I actually didn't correct him right away because I was filming it, I wanted the problem to be clear in the video. The truth is that cuff's under the chin don't help because thy push his head up and back and he uses that as avoidance, sometimes he will be looking straight up while mouthing.

The best success I have had, besides scratching his chest, is to use one hand over the top of his muzzle to hold his head level and then cuff him, but this requires 2 hands. I would prefer to be able to correct him with one hand so when I start the ear pinch I can keep the other hand on the ear.

I think next time I will try taking him off the table, when he is on the table up and back is away from me, where if I sit on a bucket I can loom over him and cut him off....

Keep the ideas coming, I will try and film my progress and post it here

troutbum13 · Post by **troutbum13** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:54 pm

pointshootretrieve wrote:Maybe try a leash and training collar and pop the lead enough to unweight his front feet. How is this dog with a bird in his mouth or do you dare?

I'll give the leash thing a shot.

He has a great natural retrieve and he will bring dead birds to hand just fine. He might mouth a little, but I don't recall any damaged birds last season. He struggles with cripples and birds that are not dead when he gets to em. He likes to play with those ones and sometimes will pin them with a paw until I get there. He is a smart dog and catches on really quickly, he was woah broke in a week. This is the first time he has really been stubborn about any training

I think some of this is adolescence and he is trying to see what he can get away with.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:31 pm

Have you contacted Evan Graham?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:37 pm

troutbum13 wrote:
kninebirddog wrote:What I would do is go back put in mouth and I bump Under the chin as soon as the head begins to play around I would not allow it to go as far as shown in the you tube video..
Thanks for the help....I actually didn't correct him right away because I was filming it, I wanted the problem to be clear in the video. The truth is that cuff's under the chin don't help because thy push his head up and back and he uses that as avoidance, sometimes he will be looking straight up while mouthing.

The best success I have had, besides scratching his chest, is to use one hand over the top of his muzzle to hold his head level and then cuff him, but this requires 2 hands. I would prefer to be able to correct him with one hand so when I start the ear pinch I can keep the other hand on the ear.

I think next time I will try taking him off the table, when he is on the table up and back is away from me, where if I sit on a bucket I can loom over him and cut him off....

Keep the ideas coming, I will try and film my progress and post it here

Your not suppose to push you Bump him and get his attention it is all in the timing how to do it..I would suggest you go back and read the book more careful as you really should stick with A method I just know what I do when I have a dog pulling that stunt on me and how I catch and stop it before it get to be that bad of a problem

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:08 pm

I may be way off base here so take it FWIW, but this is one case when I think I would move to the next step and start fetch with pressure. When he comes forward and grabs it, keep him moving down the table until released to hand. Over lay the ear pinch with the e-collar. If he continues wanting to mouth, I would go back to the hold command and use the e-collar when he started to mouth, giving him the hold command at the same time. Try to take it from his mouth while giving the hold command and apply pressure if he starts to let go. He should get "sticky" and not let you pull it from his mouth until the release command. At this point, anytime he starts mouthing, give him the command and apply pressure with the e-collar. He will learn how to turn the pressure off. It would be a lot easier to demonstrate than to type out but hopefully you understand what I am saying and it is only a suggestion.

Charlie

troutbum13 · Post by **troutbum13** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:42 pm

kninebirddog wrote: Your not suppose to push you Bump him and get his attention it is all in the timing how to do it..I would suggest you go back and read the book more careful as you really should stick with A method I just know what I do when I have a dog pulling that stunt on me and how I catch and stop it before it get to be that bad of a problem

I am not "pushing" him, but when I bump him under the chin his head naturally goes up and back. Hard to explain, but I think you can see it happen in the clip I posted. I understand the concept of cuffing him, here is the example I am using, if you click on that link you can see he is not using very much force. The reason I am posting is because that type of correction doesn't seem to be helping...You may be right I might need to escalate the amount/force of correction but I don't want to shut him down either. Thanks for the help.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:47 pm

troutbum13 wrote:
kninebirddog wrote: Your not suppose to push you Bump him and get his attention it is all in the timing how to do it..I would suggest you go back and read the book more careful as you really should stick with A method I just know what I do when I have a dog pulling that stunt on me and how I catch and stop it before it get to be that bad of a problem
I am not "pushing" him, but when I bump him under the chin his head naturally goes up and back. Hard to explain, but I think you can see it happen in the clip I posted. I understand the concept of cuffing him, here is the example I am using, if you click on that link you can see he is not using very much force. The reason I am posting is because that type of correction doesn't seem to be helping...You may be right I might need to escalate the amount/force of correction but I don't want to shut him down either. Thanks for the help.

That is the line you have to learn to read with your dog

Just enough to let him know your are serious and for him to knock it off but not so over board that it shuts them down sure you may get a pout and have to take that step back a bit and reenforce a step

Another poster suggested to contact Evan Graham...I think that would be a great Idea since it is his method you are trying to follow

troutbum13 · Post by **troutbum13** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:27 pm

birddogger wrote:I may be way off base here so take it FWIW, but this is one case when I think I would move to the next step and start fetch with pressure. When he comes forward and grabs it, keep him moving down the table until released to hand. Over lay the ear pinch with the e-collar. If he continues wanting to mouth, I would go back to the hold command and use the e-collar when he started to mouth, giving him the hold command at the same time. Try to take it from his mouth while giving the hold command and apply pressure if he starts to let go. He should get "sticky" and not let you pull it from his mouth until the release command. At this point, anytime he starts mouthing, give him the command and apply pressure with the e-collar. He will learn how to turn the pressure off. It would be a lot easier to demonstrate than to type out but hopefully you understand what I am saying and it is only a suggestion.

Charlie

It has crossed my mind especially since he is already lunging for the roller...I will hit up Evan G and see what he thinks.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:51 pm

I see no correction the second he starts mouthing..He would get a sharp whap under the jaw the second he mouthed...Head up or not. The second he quits and holds correctly I stroke the head and say good hold...Hold is something that requires a correction the second they do it wrong...

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:38 am

snips wrote:I see no correction the second he starts mouthing..He would get a sharp whap under the jaw the second he mouthed...Head up or not. The second he quits and holds correctly I stroke the head and say good hold...Hold is something that requires a correction the second they do it wrong...

That's it. You are letting him throw his head around. Don't do it. The dog should sit quietly, looking UP into your face. Therefore, don't kneel down, stand next to him or put him on a table. NEVER hit him on the nose. That drives the head down. Hit him UNDER the jaw, driving it up. If he moves his head left, tap him on the left side of the jaw. Never let that head move an inch and it should always be pointing up at you.

When he works those jaws give a sharp NO and rap on the jaw. Praise while he's performing correctly.

troutbum13 · Post by **troutbum13** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:34 pm

Well, cuffing him didn't seem to be getting through. And I didn't want to increase the pressure of the correction because I could tell he was shutting down.

So instead I placed my left hand over the muzzle while placing the roller in his mouth with my right. I could then hold his head in place and cuff him lightly if he loosened up too much. I used mostly verbal corrections with a sharp "hey" every time he tried to mouth, all while maintaining my left hand over the muzzle. I did one session this morning like that and it seemed to help. After two more sessions without holding the muzzle I am really pleased with the progress.

Two things happened.

First he realized that this was not fun, it was work. He no longer lunges for the roller, in fact he will turn his head to avoid it. He will accept it if I place it in his mouth, but he no longer wants it on his own. I think this is to be expected and after thinking about it, I am not worried about the avoidance for the time being, I actually think it will be helpful when I start to force him.

Second, even though he is not enthusiastic about the roller the mouthing has almost disappeared. The only corrections i made at the end were for getting too loose, but he is no longer trying to lift his head up and mouth. We will keep working on it, but I think he now understands what is expected. I think that I got too caught up in the steps and forgot that a correction is not helpful if the dog doesn't understand what is required. I wouldn't categorize this dog as soft, but he is very biddable. I think slowing down and helping him understand made all the difference.

My wife braved the mosquitos to film our last session. The first video was our first day, this video is day three.

here is the link

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:42 pm

Better and no expect the I do not want to as he goes through the this isn't fun stage it is expected do not allow games to cloud what is expected as long as you are being fair and not pushing stuff to fast or cutting corners

remember it is Force fetch not please will you fetch

Even kids stop having fun doing the dishes with mom when it becomes a chore they are required to do

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:44 pm

I would start to force him. Then reinforce the hold each time he grabs it...It was kinda a game to him til yu started getting on him...No time like the present.

Dashin Gun Dogs · Post by **Dashin Gun Dogs** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:06 pm

I see some major issues with your video. Smacking a dog during FF is not good. I am not oppossed to smacking one, but this isn't the place. You have too much going on. You need to secure the dogs neck and the rear ( i do so with a D-ring collar around neck and flank), and adjustable chains. The next thing, you should be using something hard at this point, not something chewy (it looks like a paint roller). Have the dog to stand, hold, and tap the dowel. It will cause him to hold it securely but not too firm.
Please be careful following the lab methods of FF as compared to the Pointing dog methods. Some lab folks use a method called "burning", and I will tell that would ruin 95 % of pointing dogs. Labs and pointing dogs are different when it comes to training. Pointing dogs still require style and staunchness. You don't want to lose that during this process.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:33 pm

I thought it was much better..He really felt more like you meant it...I tend to do shorter periods of hold, with a little more praise. Does not mean you need to be this harsh all the time, but he really needed to know he has to do it your way.

troutbum13 · Post by **troutbum13** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:00 pm

Dashin Gun Dogs wrote:I see some major issues with your video. Smacking a dog during FF is not good. I am not oppossed to smacking one, but this isn't the place. You have too much going on. You need to secure the dogs neck and the rear ( i do so with a D-ring collar around neck and flank), and adjustable chains. The next thing, you should be using something hard at this point, not something chewy (it looks like a paint roller). Have the dog to stand, hold, and tap the dowel. It will cause him to hold it securely but not too firm.
Please be careful following the lab methods of FF as compared to the Pointing dog methods. Some lab folks use a method called "burning", and I will tell that would ruin 95 % of pointing dogs. Labs and pointing dogs are different when it comes to training. Pointing dogs still require style and staunchness. You don't want to lose that during this process.

I understand your concerns, and FF is one of those things where there are lots of opinions and techniques. I am going to stick with smartfetch, and I feel good about the program. Evan G suggests the use of a paint roller and doesn't advocate chains or restraints. As for smacking the dog, we all know that knowing your dog and being able to read the dog are the most important part of any training program. A one minute video can't convey any of that.

All I can tell you is that I work with this dog every day, and that the cuffing under the chin was not overly hard...if you read my post I talked about how I did not want to dial up the amount of pressure in the corrections. I do, however, want him to know that I mean business. The sound from the hollow paint roller makes it seem more forceful than it is.

I feel like we made great progress and that the dog is doing well after three days of work, if the "serious issues" you are talking about are just that you have problems with the system...well all I can say is that FF seems a lot like politics and religion...lots of strong opinions. I may "convert" in the future but for now I am going to stick with the system we are using.

troutbum13 · Post by **troutbum13** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:03 pm

snips wrote:I thought it was much better..He really felt more like you meant it...I tend to do shorter periods of hold, with a little more praise. Does not mean you need to be this harsh all the time, but he really needed to know he has to do it your way.

Thanks, I feel good about it. I will make sure we are solid on walking hold and then jump in and force him.

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:01 am

troutbum13 wrote:Well, cuffing him didn't seem to be getting through. And I didn't want to increase the pressure of the correction because I could tell he was shutting down.

here is the link

Didn't get any audio so it was hard to tell if any praise was being given. However, saw petting and a generally good attitude, and that's good to see. I'm not sure quite so much cuffing was needed, but it looks like a pup that is coming along, and has a good solid Sit.

EvanG

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:24 am

Much better, now his attitude is correct for ff. FF is NOT fun, and some dog's do shut down during it. That's all part of the game. FF is about FORCE. If the dog shuts down, force him to do it.

You're still allowing him to drop his head and to look around; I would not do that. All of his attention should be on your eyes.

I don't like it when people calling tapping a dog under the chin "smacking the dog". Your not. It's just a tap to keep his head up. I don't like to use my hand to do it. I have a riding crop cut off to about a foot and tap him under the chin with it. Less chance of making a dog hand shy.

ONce you start the ear pinch, NEVER remove your hand from the collar in the initial phase; keep it there so you have full control all of the time.

Get off the gums; his attitude and acceptance show he's ready for the ear pinch. In and out in six weeks, that's your goal. The longer you keep him in, the more sour he will become on the whole process.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:08 pm

snips wrote:I would start to force him. Then reinforce the hold each time he grabs it...It was kinda a game to him til yu started getting on him...No time like the present.

Ditto!

Charlie

Dashin Gun Dogs · Post by **Dashin Gun Dogs** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:27 pm

[quote="gonehuntin'"]Much better, now his attitude is correct for ff. FF is NOT fun, and some dog's do shut down during it. That's all part of the game. FF is about FORCE. If the I don't like it when people calling tapping a dog under the chin "smacking the dog". Your not. It's just a tap to keep his head up. I don't like to use my hand to do it. I have a riding crop cut off to about a foot and tap him under the chin with it. Less chance of making a dog hand shy.
quote]

I was calling the smack on the nose a "smacking".

I wasn't calling the tap under the chin smacking. I was talking about when he smacked him on top of the nose.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:33 pm

Dashin Gun Dogs wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:Much better, now his attitude is correct for ff. FF is NOT fun, and some dog's do shut down during it. That's all part of the game. FF is about FORCE. If the I don't like it when people calling tapping a dog under the chin "smacking the dog". Your not. It's just a tap to keep his head up. I don't like to use my hand to do it. I have a riding crop cut off to about a foot and tap him under the chin with it. Less chance of making a dog hand shy.
quote]

I was calling the smack on the nose a "smacking".

I wasn't calling the tap under the chin smacking. I was talking about when he smacked him on top of the nose.

Gottcha. I'm death on smacking the nose as well.

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:21 am

gonehuntin' wrote:Much better, now his attitude is correct for ff. FF is NOT fun, and some dog's do shut down during it. That's all part of the game. FF is about FORCE.

Specifically, conditioning to pressure, which produces a far more reliable, stable dog in the field under more adverse conditions.

EvanG

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:50 am

How is the mouthing coming along?

EvanG

troutbum13 · Post by **troutbum13** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:12 pm

It has gotten better, I started forcing him last week...transitioned from a paint roller to a bumper after a couple of days and tonight we started transitioning to the ground. He is usually pretty vocal at the beginning of each session, but he knows what is expected and responds to very little pressure. I have attached a short video showing the improvement. The noisy one is the new pup on the chain gang...not the dog being forced.

One thing I struggled a little with tonight is that when the bumper is completely on the ground right in front of him, he goes down for it and then doesn't pop back up to a sit, instead he wants to lie down. I ended up putting the bumper out a couple of steps ahead of him and walked him to it and that seemed an easier transition then right in front of him on the ground. Anyway, I am pleased with the progress...still a long ways to go. As always advice is welcome.

Dashin Gun Dogs · Post by **Dashin Gun Dogs** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:00 pm

That is why I use a collar around the neck and flank, and I attache them to a chain on the table or a above to a cable run. Since you aren't wanting to use restraints, you may put it on the ground and when he lies down, walk out in front and call him to you. After he picks it up and runs to you, have him sit.

Good Luck and keep at it.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:22 am

You're doing well, big improvement. There are some minor problems yet. You are NOT removing your thumb from the ear when the dog fetches the bumper. When you do this, the dog doesn't learn that the pressure of ff is relieved by grasping the object; your hand is always on his ear therefore pressure always exists.

You are still letting him turn his hear to the outside. That's his way of asserting his will on you; it's one step away from him not giving you a bumper or spitting it out.

He is sitting "side saddle", one leg tucked under him when he sits. It looks sloppy. Step on that inside foot, jerk up on his collar, and command "sit up".

When going to the ground and he lays down, (they all try it), command "NO, SIT UP", simultaneously stepping on his front paws LIGHTLY. Only a couple of times and he'll stop doing that.

That is a darn nice looking dog and a willing learner. My feeling is by watching him that he is going to make you a very good dog.

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:56 am

troutbum13 wrote:It has gotten better, I started forcing him last week...transitioned from a paint roller to a bumper after a couple of days and tonight we started transitioning to the ground. He is usually pretty vocal at the beginning of each session, but he knows what is expected and responds to very little pressure. I have attached a short video showing the improvement. The noisy one is the new pup on the chain gang...not the dog being forced.

Nicely improved. His sit needs a little repair. But generally, a much better session all around.

troutbum13 wrote:One thing I struggled a little with tonight is that when the bumper is completely on the ground right in front of him, he goes down for it and then doesn't pop back up to a sit, instead he wants to lie down. I ended up putting the bumper out a couple of steps ahead of him and walked him to it and that seemed an easier transition then right in front of him on the ground. Anyway, I am pleased with the progress...still a long ways to go. As always advice is welcome.

It's not at all necessary to fully release the ear flap upon fetch completion as long as you're fully relieving pressure. That is essential. Note that I use the free 3 fingers to loop beneath the collar strap for control of the dog's upper torso, and I don't actually pinch the ear. I hold the ear flap between thumb & forefinger, and press it on the tang of the collar as a pressure point. That way I'm never without the ear flap. If the dog drops the object, I can instantly re-apply pressure, since I never lost the ear. That keeps timing intact. Nice job!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mxo6wdHl2w

EvanG

troutbum13 · Post by **troutbum13** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:14 am

yeah watching the video his sit is sloppy, I think it happened when we transitioned to fetching from the ground, that "side-saddle" sit is him trying to lie down in slow motion. It is something I will have to work on.

When he has the bumper in his mouth I am removing pressure from the ear against the tang, I try to hold on to the ear, so that I can correct again if he drops it but there is no pressure.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:30 pm

troutbum13 wrote:yeah watching the video his sit is sloppy, I think it happened when we transitioned to fetching from the ground, that "side-saddle" sit is him trying to lie down in slow motion. It is something I will have to work on.

When he has the bumper in his mouth I am removing pressure from the ear against the tang, I try to hold on to the ear, so that I can correct again if he drops it but there is no pressure.

As Evan alluded too, that is fine, especially on a starting dog. I let go of the ear, once they are jumping for the roller, to make transitioning to going to the pile faster. Just a matter of preference. You're doing great.

Cactus · Post by **Cactus** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:16 pm

This forum provides a lot of education for the novice dog trainers, and this post in particular is an excellent example. Thanks for sharing your experience, especially the videos, and please keep posted on your progress. And, that's a great looking dog!

NJGriffNut · Post by **NJGriffNut** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:26 pm

Is your Griff the type with Fousek in the bloodlines? Anywho, awesome dog. I am oodles behind you in this training, I haven't started force fetch yet, as I am working on woah. My pup is 8 months.

Where do you live?

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