update

[setter50]

I posted as a new dog owner and trainer about eight weeks ago regarding my english setter. My post covered what was going well and not so well in our training. Here is where we sit today.

Overall, our family has created a great bond with our setter and if we were interested in a family dog only we would have hit a homerun. Our dog is well mannered and behaves well around people, even for a high strung dog like a setter. We get numerous complements from others on his looks, manners, and disposition.

As an owner who wants more than a family dog we still have many areas to work on. Please feel free to post and let me know if I'm on par with my pup, if our problem areas are common, and if we are ahead of the game in certain areas.

Crate training- I believe this to be the easiest part of our training to this point. Our dog recognizes the command and generally responds whan asked to kennal.

Heel- My setter really likes to take the lead and run. I believe this to be a good thing however, he has a hard time with heel unless we are in the back yard in a training session.

Come/Here- I'm most dissappointed with this area. In short training session my pup will respond. I'm convinced he understands the command. In everyday settings he will not follow the command unless it benfits what he wants. At the age of three to four months I felt I had this part of training down, however my dog has gained confidence and now a bit of independence. He now is a hand full while off his leash.

Whoa- He understands the command and just needs practice. If I can ever get the Come/Here command down I will try to move along and concertrate on this command a little more.

Fetch- This is my second area of concern. My pup would prefer to be chased than to fetch any items. We don't chase the dog when he has balls, bumpers or toys in his mouth, but this is the game he wants to play. This is another area we will work on when I can take care of our other commands.

I guess my question is, are we on pace with our training? Are there any areas of concern? Or should we continue with teaching the basic commands. I have a few friends suggest I use an ecollar to fix the Come/Here command, but I think 5 1/2 months is a little young. Comments and suggestions are welcome.

setter50

[brad27]

I guess my question is, are we on pace with our training? Are there any areas of concern? Or should we continue with teaching the basic commands. I have a few friends suggest I use an ecollar to fix the Come/Here command, but I think 5 1/2 months is a little young. Comments and suggestions are welcome.

setter50

please don't take this the wrong way.

DO NOT put that ecollar on that dog until you know what you're doing. the ecollar is for reinforcing KNOWN commands. has nothing to do with age, to a point.
what training method are you following? books/dvd's?

[PntrRookie]

...Here is where we sit today.

Don't teach sit tongue in cheek on that one but seriously, I don't teach sit.

Heel- My setter really likes to take the lead and run.

Pinch collar and repetition

Come/Here- I'm most dissappointed with this area. In short training session my pup will respond. I'm convinced he understands the command. In everyday settings he will not follow the command unless it benfits what he wants.

checkcord and repetition...make him know it is not what HE wants, but what YOU want

Whoa- He understands the command and just needs practice.

repetition, repetition, repetition

Fetch- This is my second area of concern. My pup would prefer to be chased than to fetch any items.

Checkcord and pull him back, oh yeah...repetition, repetition, repetition - when older force fetch

You - the pup - are right on track...this is a PUPPY!!! Have fun, keep it fun and no ecollar until all this is set in stone.

[ben33127]

Teaching sit was one of the worst mistakes I made...... My pointer sat down everytime I said whoa.Before some of you start bashing me, it was the first bird dog I had. However, I should not have let him sit, anyway my trainer seems to have fixed but it was a "bleep" to get him out of it.

[Ahumphers91a]

I'm with the guys on this one, teaching sit is bad. I have taught sit my whole life and have never had a dog sit in the field, but I am not teaching it anymore. It's kinda a lost cause. stick with heel, whoa, etc.

[jcorcoran]

He is still young. It is hard to say where you are on pace with training without knowing how much work you have done. At about 6 months I realized I had to change what I was doing with my Brittany and be more consistent and more frequent with training. Keep the training short and focused. Keep the commands consistent, simple and say them once.
It sounds like you have a fun well mannered dog, getting him to obey your commands will develop with repetition and training. The check cord is your best friend use it. Don't jump to the ecollar for anything unless the dog knows exactly what you are asking. I started having my dog wear it during training for a few weeks before turning it on.
For heel, use a pinch collar or wonder lead and change directions all the time in training.
For here, use a check cord over and over and over. Don't drag in for recall, but tug and release and let him come on his own with a few tugs as reminders. Every day, over and over he will get it.
Whoa can be reinforced at this age to stand still in front of doors or during feeding. I probably should have started earlier.
You can also use the check cord during fetch. My dog figured out the game would end if she didn't bring the toy back to me. Just sit still on the ground patiently and watch your puppy, and I bet he will come back to you with the toy.
I would also recommend changing up your training locations. Mine always reacted differently outside of the yard until I started going to a field or park to do the basics.
Find some birds too, I wish I had started my pup on birds earlier. Have fun.

[GUNDOGS]

puppies want to make everything fun, they make everything a game and its best to put as little pressure as possible when they are young BUT you have to be consistant and be the leader when training so i would suggest making fetch fun by using different toys and encourage the pup to bring it back to you while hes on a checkcord by reeling him into you and praising when he comes with the object in his mouth, the check cord prevents him from running away and allows for instant correction..a check cord can fix almost any issue with a young pup in my opinion, for here/come take him to other places besides your back yard such as a park on the check cord so he learns the command with distractions.. i found that my dogs always came to me more consistantly in the beginning if i knelt down a bit, it is more inviting and makes them want to come to you, say COME only once and pull him to you and praise him/give a treat, then just slowly start to stand when he comes more reliably..a way i teach "come" OFF LEAD is to go to a safe large area such as a field and walk in another direction at any time, when you see he is looking at you and starting to come to you give the command COME when he is already coming to you as if it were his idea, he will learn COME quickly since he is already preforming the action when you say the command..since he is almost 6 months old you want him to definitley learn come/here as this to me is the most important command for him to learn..i personally wouldnt use an ecollar just yet, an ecollar is for reinforcing corrections the dog already knows and i dont think enough work has been done with the check cord yet to move on to the ecollar..my pup is 6 and a half months and i have not put an ecollar on her yet and she knows verbal, hand signal and whistle commands very well..i would make sure he knows the commands and is reliable on them before correcting with the ecollar or he may just become confused and shut down.. for HEEL i used a prong collar and on lead for a walk if she pulled ahead or to the side i would stop, say HEEL and pull her back to my side everytime and continue to walk when she stayed at heel..heres a short video of jersey at 4 months on COME and WHOA and i taught her just as i told you, with the check cord at the parks and in the field off lead as well..good luck...ruth

[GUNDOGS]

another thing i will add to my long post above is i ALWAYS use my dogs names BEFORE commands so that when i have more then one dog out in the field for a walk they know which one im calling..i call the name they look i give the command, this avoids any confusion..if you are planning to ever have more than one dog its a good thing to start right away...jm2c ... ruth

[northern cajun]

I'm with the guys on this one, teaching sit is bad. I have taught sit my whole life and have never had a dog sit in the field, but I am not teaching it anymore. It's kinda a lost cause. stick with heel, whoa, etc.

if you duck hunt sit is a good thing for your dog to know.

[birddogger]

I think you are trying to go way too fast with this young pup and trying to teach too many things at the same time. Let this pup have some fun and just work on the here and kennel commands for now with very little pressure and keep it fun for him. It is alright to teach whoa at the food bowl, door, crate, etc., without pressure, but wait until he is a little older for any serious training and don't try to train too much at once.....Let him get one command down before moving on. In short, just slow down, you have plenty of time and will have a better trained and well adjusted dog because of it. JMO

Charlie

[setter50]

Thank you for all the feedback. In response to brad 27's question about books, dvds and resource I use. I use "The Complete English Setter" by Davis H. Tuck and the "Gun Dog" dvd based of Richard Wolter's book. I also use this website as well.

I think my biggest worry is the pace at which dogs learn and pick up on what they are taught. Since this is my first dog that I have trained, I don't have any experiences to fall back on. Because of this lack of experience I need to hear from you folks to see if my pup is progressing the way most dogs progress. That is the great thing about this forum, I now know that my dog's behavior is typical and with practice he can reach his potential.

BTW
I will hold off on the ecollar

Sit is not a command that I have taught and only used by me

setter50

[GUNDOGS]

Thank you for all the feedback. In response to brad 27's question about books, dvds and resource I use. I use "The Complete English Setter" by Davis H. Tuck and the "Gun Dog" dvd based of Richard Wolter's book. I also use this website as well.

I think my biggest worry is the pace at which dogs learn and pick up on what they are taught. Since this is my first dog that I have trained, I don't have any experiences to fall back on. Because of this lack of experience I need to hear from you folks to see if my pup is progressing the way most dogs progress. That is the great thing about this forum, I now know that my dog's behavior is typical and with practice he can reach his potential.

BTW
I will hold off on the ecollar

Sit is not a command that I have taught and only used by me

setter50

i wouldnt worry too much about the pace "DOGS" in general learn, each pup is different and can handle learning differently..you can take your time and teach all the things i mentioned to you over as long of a period as you need to but they definitley need to be taught..just read YOUR pup and he will tell you when he is ready for learning and when he is catching on.. we all work with/train our dogs at different paces and as long as the dogs doing well and is balanced and confident its ok..a few people think i have taught my pup too much for 6 months old but in the end only i really know my pup well enough to be able to make that call..i appreciate and take into consideration ALL comments, advise, input and tips whether its compliments or criticism but in the end i spend almost every minute of every day with my pup so only i know the best way to train HER and that goes the same for you too..i have never had to put real pressure on my pup to teach her things and she is almost 7 months old, i have no need to use an ecollar so i dont..your pup will reach his potential if you spend the time and have the patience to get him there, youre right to not underestimate him im sure he will be a great hunting companion...good luck...ruth

also we will be waterfowl hunting with jersey so we have just recently started with "hup" (sit) so she wont knock us out of the boat or blind by moving around when we want her still ...ruth

[Sharon]

crate training: It can't get any better then what you posted , unless your dog goes to crate when the news is over like mine.

heel : keep working on it . My 3 now stay at my heels when returning from the field but it takes work to maintain it.

Come /here: Normal for the dog at his age to start and become independent. You want that . I would introduce the collar for that use. PM me if you want a step by step plan.

I think you've done a commendable job for that age of dog.( I assume he is house trained.)

What bird work are you doing?

[Sue]

Sounds about right to this setter-puppy-raiser!

I would just ditto all the sentiments to...
- keep up the repetition
- remember he's still a pup, so keep it fun and not too much pressure yet.
(the most important "lesson" you are teaching him at this age, is that learning is a positive thing to do with you.)

As far as retrieve goes, yes I've also used the check cord to "reel the pup in" and that works, but takes a lot of sessions.

On my latest pup, who also wanted to play "keep away" more than bring back, I shaped her retrieve in about three 10 minute evening training sessions using clicker training. She now brings the object to hand very eagerly. It was a very quick fix to the problem of "keep away" and a nice way to keep the training appropriate for a puppy (too early for FF).

If you are interested in learning about this sort of training, here's a great book that explains all about how animals learn. Its a quick and entertaining read and gives you enough ideas to adapt to just about any training you want to accomplish.
http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Shoot-Dog-Te ... 860542387/

[deseeker]

another thing i will add to my long post above is i ALWAYS use my dogs names BEFORE commands so that when i have more then one dog out in the field for a walk they know which one im calling..i call the name they look i give the command, this avoids any confusion..if you are planning to ever have more than one dog its a good thing to start right away...jm2c ... ruth

Ruth-- Calling my dog's name before the command doesn't work for me---All my females are named Penny (I'm up to Penny5 now.) One thing about it--I never call them by the wrong name :roll: :roll:

[ben33127]

another thing i will add to my long post above is i ALWAYS use my dogs names BEFORE commands so that when i have more then one dog out in the field for a walk they know which one im calling..i call the name they look i give the command, this avoids any confusion..if you are planning to ever have more than one dog its a good thing to start right away...jm2c ... ruth

Ruth-- Calling my dog's name before the command doesn't work for me---All my females are named Penny (I'm up to Penny5 now.) One thing about it--I never call them by the wrong name :roll: :roll:

jody
kate

[Ahumphers91a]

I'm with the guys on this one, teaching sit is bad. I have taught sit my whole life and have never had a dog sit in the field, but I am not teaching it anymore. It's kinda a lost cause. stick with heel, whoa, etc.

if you duck hunt sit is a good thing for your dog to know.

True LOL or u can whoa the dog in the blind

[birddogger]

if you duck hunt sit is a good thing for your dog to know.

No problem, just wait until the other commands have been taught.

Charlie

[GUNDOGS]

another thing i will add to my long post above is i ALWAYS use my dogs names BEFORE commands so that when i have more then one dog out in the field for a walk they know which one im calling..i call the name they look i give the command, this avoids any confusion..if you are planning to ever have more than one dog its a good thing to start right away...jm2c ... ruth

Ruth-- Calling my dog's name before the command doesn't work for me---All my females are named Penny (I'm up to Penny5 now.) One thing about it--I never call them by the wrong name :roll: :roll:

i thought you were just joking until i looked at your signature line and seen ITS TRUE you just have to start calling them by their name AND number thats all ....ruth

[phoenix]

What you are going through is NORMAL with a pup, no matter what the breed. Your pup is just exerting his independance. Much like a teen would do. The check cord is YOUR MOST VALUABLE TOOL at ththis time. It gives you controll. You should never give a command you cannot enforce at this time in the pups development. If you do give commands you cannot enforce you are just teaching the pup he has a choice. My advice on your come/here training it to focus on getting the pup to "go with you" vs. "come to you". Example, walk away from your pup and call him once, continue to walk away but descretely keep an eye on him, he should for fear of being left or missing the fun should turn and chase after you, keep walking away, when he getts close to you, turn and call his name and the come/here command, 99% chance says he will about knock you down, praise him and continue. Its a good way to start building a trust relationship while teaching the benifit of responding to you. Here is a link to some great training tips!
http://www.pineyrunkennel.com/training_tips.htm
Some really good info there!
fg
PS relax on the fetch, that takes patience and work repitition & time. My late setter Duff was almost 2 before he was reliable in a retrieve. My new pup retrieves to hand every time at 10 weeks but I'd bet money that around 5 months he will try to start "claiming" things and the real "fetch" work will begin!