Too old to learn?

jobird · Post by **jobird** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:16 am

I have a GSP bitch that is almost 5 years old. Her nose and her hunting skills are great. I really couldn't ask for much more in that department, but when I send her for the retrieve, she runs like a rocket to the bird and picks it up and brings it back towards me and about 8-10 feet out, she drops the bird and continues on with the hunt. Once she has dropped her bird, it is like it doesn't exist anymore. Nothing will persuade her to pick it back up and finish the retrieve. If we just wanted to use her as our own gundog, this might be ok, but we want to continue to run her in field tests and try to get her up to an FDX level. My husband and I decided to send her to be force fetched by a pro trainer. The trainer commented that she might be too old to learn. Is this really the case, or is the trainer full of it? What do you guys think?

Janna

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:29 am

maybe, but what that trainer is really doing is hedging his bets a little. an older dog is a little harder to train than a younger dog, it often takes more time. it usually can be done. there might be a few really obstinate cases where it can't. he is just telling you it might take a little longer, cost a little more, and is only 80 or 90% certain to work.

one thing you can try though, before force breaking, is to back pedal when the dog is coming in and is maybe 20 feet from you. back away from the dog. this will usually induce them to come in to you. whereas if you go at them or stand still, some will balk.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:32 am

A dog is never too old to learn. That said, she may be more set in her ways and it could take longer but she can and will learn if the trainer spends the time. Dogs are a lot like people, they learn what they are interested in no matter the age.

Ezzy

jobird · Post by **jobird** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:18 pm

Thanks for the tip, John. We have tried a bunch of different things with her including running away. One day I even tried using leftover roast to reward her when she came in all the way. On that day she did about 1/2 her retrieves to hand and the rest right to 8 feet. Its like there is a force field there. She is only like this with birds. She will retrieve sticks and balls and bumpers and toys for hours on end to hand on land and out of the water. Hopefully a few weeks of FF will bring her that last 8 feet.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:35 pm

here is the reality of that conversation with the pro. a customer comes in and says can you force fetch train my dog and how long will it take. the pro says we charge $100 per week (or whatever the number is), it usually takes about 6 weeks, how old is the dog. now the owner is thinking dollars and this is going to cost me a few hundred, so they want a deadline, in effect a representation by the pro that it will take "x" amount of time, because that means the owner can get the work done for "y" dollars, which they can afford. but they really don't want to spend "y+ a couple hundred more". the pro, hearing that it is an older dog, knows that it can virtually always be done, just a question of how long it will take with the older dog, because it is unpredictable, it will take what it takes. they have to do at the dog's speed, and some older dogs get pretty spoiled as house dogs, so they cannot take alot of training pressure fast. so the pro will tell you older dogs are harder to train, and no 100% guarantees. Actually, given unlimited time and budget, they can do that training successfully all of the time. Give him a year and the dog will be FF trained. But with the older dog, the pro does not want to get to 4 weeks, or 6 weeks, or whatever number he has told you he thinks it will take, and then have to tell you he could not get the job finished. he is hedging his bets.

LSKGSPs · Post by **LSKGSPs** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:46 pm

Just a couple thoughts.

How much do you know about the trainer's methods?

Have you watched him doing any FF training? Have you seen any dogs retreive that this trainer has FF trained? Will you be able to spend some time with the trainer during the process?

Here are the reasons that it may be important for you to understand the questions above. Believe it or not there are some pro trainers that do not like to do FF tng. Not many, but those who do not, sometimes do not present an overly optimistic view to the client.

So that you get an idea of what is involved in FF tng, you should watch a session or two being done. Then make the decision as to your personal preferences regarding training methods to be used on your dog. Above all you must understand and feel comfortable with the process.

The "proof is in the pudding", so to speak. Watching a dog retreive that has been FF trained by the trainer you consider using is always helpful.

"Wagonmaster has good advice. You might also consider turning your back on the dog and walk directly away from the retreive line (if dog does not respond to backing away).....watch out of the corner of your eye to see if dog follows....if it does, then slow up a little until the dog is just about to you. Then stop turn quickly, reach down for bird and praise, praise, praise. If the dog is responding to this approach you can progressively shorten the distance you have to walk away....reaching a point where all that will be necessary is for you to turn your back. From that point on you are home free.

The other thing you might try is going back to the checkcord for a refresher course in the basics for the dog. Return to short controlled retreives, so you can get to the "praise" portion of the process.

And finally........Even dogs that have been FF trained will at times get lazy on you. It is then that you need to know how the dog was trained and what you need to do right then and there to nip the laziness in the bud.

One other thing you do not make mention of. Are there children in the home? If so (and this applies to adults as well) try to limit or eliminate "games" of go fetch toys etc. This can be the beginning of problems involving retreiving when the kids or adults forget that the dog is always learning, but people are not always teaching. In other words.....FF or not,
natural or not if game time allows the dog to be sloppy bringing the ball, toy or dummy back......that often carries over to the field.

Having said all that I will repeat to you what a repected trainer told me. He said.........It is difficult enough to get your dog positioned to be in a "call back" to retreive........there is no sense in leaving the retreive to chance or luck.....He went on to say that if you are going to compete in an arena that calls for retreives......then FF train the dog to do that.

LSK

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:50 pm

You might get by on this dog by teaching a good HOLD. Starting with a dumbell and when he is solid there move to a frozen bird. This will not teach the dog to pick up on command, but when he is coming in you can at least say HOLD so he does not drop it. If he does drop it you can go put it back in his mouth and have him come in holding the bird. (in practice). If you go to the Articles section on this Forum, my article should explain how you can do this.

jobird · Post by **jobird** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:56 pm

LSKGSP
All very valid points and questions to see and ask the trainer. We got a few recommendations from other people in our area who have sent out their dogs for FF training. We went to see some trainers do some training and saw a variety of styles and intensity displayed. The trainers (a husband and wife team) we are sending her to, breed retrievers and do training for other people for a living. We spoke to them in depth about their training methods and the level of force that they use on dogs to get them progressing. They are known in the area for being "gentle trainers" and from what we saw, that is very true. We have seen several dogs (GSPs and retrievers) that they have worked with and the dogs are lovely to watch and haven't lost any of their enthusiasm for retrieving and don't show any stand-offish or fear behavior towards the trainers. (Not something I could say about some of the others we watched.) The trainers will work with us to teach us how to handle the dog and how to keep up the training ourselves. (In fact, she said that it was probably my husband and I who needed a month of training more than the dog did).

I know that I could probably FF her myself using Snips's article (and bugging you all when I have questions) but I am starting to be a bit worried that the longer I stretch out her training, this will just re-inforce the bad behavior. Maybe have a stranger do this will get her attention faster and with better results.

LSKGSPs · Post by **LSKGSPs** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:21 pm

Jobird..............You have got the "picture" perfectly. I tried very carefully to pick my words in my last post. I did not want to offend any readers nor unduly alarm you about the significantly different approaches there are to FF training. Clearly, you already understood everything I was trying to say. You have done your homework well..........Best of everything to you.

gundogguru · Post by **gundogguru** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:45 pm

your dog is a perfect candidate for FF

birdshot · Post by **birdshot** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:59 pm

look at snips post. follow her advise and you can spend your money on a a good hunt.

SwitchGrassWPG · Post by **SwitchGrassWPG** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:51 am

Every dog is different..."pro trainer" or not. I recently did FF with my 4 yr old Griff amd I'm by far not a pro trainer. Only took a few weeks of 5-10 minutes a day working on it.

I'm getting ready to start on my 7 yr old Springer pound rescue that has an extremely hard head and no retreiving desire at all. It may take a little longer with him.

Wa Chukar Hunter · Post by **Wa Chukar Hunter** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:45 am

The oldest dog (GSP) I have FF'd was 9 yrs old - took the same amount of time as any younger dog with the same type of temperment.

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:24 pm

Janna who did you decide on going with? This sparks my interest for when I need to have mine done if I need to have mine done?

When are you sending her and are you guys doing linc too or just asia?

I was having the same problem with Bailey she would retrieve anything to hand exept birds but I went out every night and caught as many pigeons as I could then shot them over her the next day. At the start she would drop them but slowly over a few weeks and me being down on one knee coaxing her in she delivered to hand.

This could be asias way of striking back at you guys for allowing those 12 little devils attatching to her for food all those times too

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:00 pm

Seeing as this dog does all her other retrieves to hand, completes most of the bird retrieve but drops it 10ft away....then don't you think there might just be something about the situation that is causing this?

Our attitude toward retrieval of a fresh bird to that of a training dummy is different for a start.
I can't remember, has this dog had any practise retrieving thawed birds?
I think maybe a few thawed birds and the owner kneels down and smiles and lightens up a bit might help the dog bring them right on in, and after a bit of this if the owner behaves the same way in the field then the fresh birds will hopefully come to hand too.

Just a possibility

jobird · Post by **jobird** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:46 pm

Margaret
Another very valid point. I wondered if we were giving off the wrong vibe with her and that is why I started to carry treats in my pocket when we do bird fetching work with her. My husband and I were both very conscious of how we reacted to her and worked very hard to be positive and upbeat. We kneel down as she comes in, we use a pleasant firm voice to call her in, and when she does bring the bird all the way in she gets tons of treats and praise and pets. She hates thawed birds and refuses to pick them up. Fresh dead is ok, but wounded/alive birds are better and she is more likely to bring those all the way in than dead.

Thanks everyone for your input. We sent her off for 60 days to start and will re-evalute depending on how well she responds.

Ryan,
I'll send you a PM with the kennel info. Hug Diego and wish him a Happy 6 month birthday from Jassen and me and Geneva and Uncle Linc.