Am I doing something wrong

wes70 · Post by **wes70** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:27 am

I have followed some of ya'lls tips. I got a quail wing to try and get my EP to point. I have been working on her for about a week. She will not point. She just wants to eat it.

I know some of you do not like the wing. But most everyone else has said to start her on that then get rid of it. I don;t want to get rid of it till she will stand and point.

Do I need to give her more time? Or am I doing something wrong?

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:39 am

there are some tricks to using it. you have to start and stop. in other words, when you pull the wing away from pup, you have to let it land and sit still. pup then goes after it, and if pup does not point, you pick the wing up and fly it somewhere else and let it land and sit. if the wing is constantly moving, pup will constantly chase. also, it helps sometimes to pick the wing up and fly it right back over pup, so pup swaps ends, and then if pup charges in again, do the same thing, fly it right back over the pup.

but if pup does not stand and point after another week of trying, just give up and quit. real birds are much more important, and pup will have the added incentive of a snoot full of scent. the wing on a string thing is just a game to get them going, if it does not work it is not worth trying to make them do it.

seadog · Post by **seadog** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:43 am

You could try replacing the wing with a live pigeon and do as was said .

gr_elliott · Post by **gr_elliott** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:47 am

You said that all he does is try and eat it? So does that mean that he is catching the wing? He is able to catch and get what he wants he has not reason to point. it is just a game of keep away that you have to win.

wes70 · Post by **wes70** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:56 am

seadog wrote:You could try replacing the wing with a live pigeon and do as was said .

Thanks for the help there seadog.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:01 am

IF the pups wants to eat it as previouly posted sounds like your allowing him to catch it...
the wing has to get away never allowing the pup to catch it

and once it is pointed throw it away...

All you are doing at this point is teaching the dog not to point but to go in catch and chew...this will be an issue when it comes to bird work in the future sopecially if you keep allowing it to happen ...your dog is learning what it sees it can catch

What you allow your dog to do ...You train your dog to do and repetition of the same mistake will only become a trained habit

WHen dropping the wing on the ground when the pup advances towards it lift up and swing over do not just play a chase game make it dissapper then reappear at least 150 - 180 degrees of a circle away not just dropping back in front of the pup ..and again once pointed throw it away your only going to promote Sight pointing which there again will show up when you start working birds and teh dog will wanty to get close enough to see the bird and not point on scent

wes70 · Post by **wes70** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:18 am

Thanks Kninebieddog. That is the kind of help I need. Not smart arse comments like seadog. I am new to this. I have never done this befor. So this is the kind of help I am asking for.

Once again thank you kninebirddog for the help.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:55 am

There is a puppy development DVD which has some good things to help get you and your pup on a good start
it is done by Rick and Ronnie Smith has some great hands on things you can do with your pup which will lead to a good foundation as your pup grows

Also try a search for some pointing dog clubs in your area...getting together with other people can also get your pup in to some great starts

With a real young pup I do like to get a good flying quail and place it out in the field to let the pup smell it find it bump and with a good flyer the pup will learn that it must stop and point it ...and if the pup does happen to catch it ...I make no issue and see if i can get the pup to me and rewarding him for having the bird in his mouth then ask for it...
But this is only for a young pup this helps to build drive and even lets the pup learn to hold a bird in his nouth but I do not let it become a habit after this I go to a check cord...So this is why I say try and find a birddog club near you ...as you can take your pup out to back teh big dogs

make your session short end on good notes and make all the little foundation pre sessions fun

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:17 am

Whoa now! I'm not sure Seadog was making a smart arse comment. I'm not sure how well you could handle a live pigeon due to weight but if you put it in a sock to restrict its movements it might work. Don't think I would recommend it since I have never tried it tied to a stick but if you hide it and keep the CC on your pup it is a good idea.

Its good to give a person the benefit of the doubt if you ever want their help again.

Ezzy

wes70 · Post by **wes70** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:58 am

Well Ezzy,

I went back to the post I did about the wing. He did not give any help there. So you tell me where he has the right to tell me just quit something and follow his word. He did not give any help there either. I am a very easy going person till some one pulls a stupid stunt like that. Had he helped on that post. I would not have said anything. But he didn't.

gr_elliott · Post by **gr_elliott** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:17 pm

Wes, two things that people get jumpy with around here is the sit command and the wing on a string. They are both considered the deveils work...

As stated before I have a buddy that has one of the best GSP's i have ever hunt behind, and the wing on the string is how he got started training. now this dog would not go far in the trail system, but when it comes to birds, it locks up they are there. Many people on here are after a hunter/trail dog. In which case they go the extra mile on training to get the dog good and steady for the judges

just two differant ways of training....I started my dog on the wing and string game, I had to stop that though, did not take him maybe times to figure out that wing was attached to the string that hung off that pole!

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:16 pm

And lets not forget that dogs need to learn to use their nose to find and point game and encouraging them to point when they can see game, which is often what is presented as training on forums, is only going to cause you problems to correct later on.

seadog · Post by **seadog** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:16 pm

Use a sturdy muskie fishing rod with lets say very heavy line , bird is tied to line, flip bird into a bush , bring dog up on the downwind side on a check cord , handler can whoa dog or hold dog back or whatever , while his helper has the fishing rod to remove bird if handler can't control dog !!!!!

seadog · Post by **seadog** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:21 pm

Now how many ARAs will read this !!!!!!

wes70 · Post by **wes70** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:14 am

Seadog,
I apoligize if I read to much into your post. So moving forward.

I worked with Molly all weekend. She finaly pointed the wing. After ya'll told me what I was doing wrong. No it is time to get rid of the wing and get live birds.

I have seen ya'll talk about carding a bird. What is that. I have been on the net all weekend trying to find out. How do I keep the birds from flying off and never finding them again?

Casper · Post by **Casper** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:54 am

Now that you know your pup will point it would probly be best to forget about birds for now. Instead take pup for short rompts in the field. These romps will teach her more than you can imagine. Encourage her to go with you and explore all she can. Let her chase anything alive. Keep it short and keep it fun.

This is better known as "Happy Timing". You can read more about this in the book Best Way to train your bird dog the Delmar Smith method