Not that you guys arent good enough...

bigmike86 · Post by **bigmike86** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:13 pm

But is The Ultimate Guide to Bird Dog Training by Jerome Robinson a good book?

I am looking for a all around training guide that covers all topics in good depth. The first book I bought barely skimmed the surface on all topics and I feel like it was a waste of 15 dollars...

tabcha63 · Post by **tabcha63** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:33 pm

I reccomend Retriever Training by Tom Dokken. Yes, I know its a Lab book :roll: , but it is really good for obediance and has some good tips. The tip on getting your dog to drink from a water bottle was a good one. Also, I was having trouble getting my pup to sit and overlay the e-collar. With in a week of reading the OB chapter, he sat like a champ...

For what its worth, I ran the NAVHDA NA Test a few weeks back and got a big fat 0 in pointing...guess I shouldnt have read a Lab book

Other than the pointing, he was eligble for a Prize I, so I cant complain. The pointing problem was on the trainer/handler/owners part...

All serious now, the Dokken book is really good. Lots of pictures and good explanation. I would reccomend checking any books out on the Google Books site, lets you look inside the book before buying it (well, at least a portion of the book).

bigmike86 · Post by **bigmike86** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:51 pm

Bah humbug... I want a supersweet book that dives deep into all aspects of pointing dogs. I am getting the Evan Graham smart fetch materials and didnt want to really get anymore retriever stuff. I will still check it out though thank you very much!

That looks like a pretty solid point on your avatar. Good lookin dog!

tabcha63 · Post by **tabcha63** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:22 pm

Not to steal your thread. He is a good pointer when I am alone. The problem was I didnt get him into enough locations to put the "hunting" into perspective for him. Also, he only ever was out with a gallery about two times and that was with 2-4 people including myself. The gallery at the test was about 6-7 people including myself. Not enough intro on my part...

The Dokken book has alot of OB, intro to water fowling (intro to deks, calls, etc), intro to upland, quartering, stuff like drinking from a water bottle, good suggestions on medi pack for in the field, Force Fetching (which is semi in depth), and also gives you a "standardized" time line of where your pup might be at a given age. That is why I like this book, it is a retriever book, but if you look past the labs in the book you can get more than that out of it.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:28 pm

Even the "worst" training book will contain a few nuggets of useful information....it may be late a night a year from now after working with a new prospect that one of those nuggets comes to you....so I believe their all good reads.

That said Wing and Shot is a must read as well as Delmar Smiths book......after that there are many and I like to read as many as I can easily get my hands on.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:29 pm

and also gives you a "standardized" time line of where your pup might be at a given age. That is why I like this book,

And this is why I frown as I and I think most real trainers will agree there is no such thing but trying to keep up with one is the quickest way to mess up your pup. Dogs progress at their own schedule and no two are alike.

Ezzy

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:32 pm

I agree with Ezzy, the benchmarks are the demonstrated understanding of learned behaviors not time...

bigmike86 · Post by **bigmike86** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:43 pm

I want to read as many books as I can about it but I think my wife is going to murder me if I keep swiping my card for my dog. I promised her the spending would slow down but there are so many cool things that I need! I want it all!

Also she wasn't happy when I told her how much an e collar is!

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:52 pm

bigmike86 wrote:I want to read as many books as I can about it but I think my wife is going to murder me if I keep swiping my card for my dog. I promised her the spending would slow down but there are so many cool things that I need! I want it all!

Also she wasn't happy when I told her how much an e collar is!

Mike, a good collar is about as expensive as a good dress or a dress and shoes. Certainly cheaper than a good mani, pedi and hairdo. My husband is thrilled I'm into dogs and not into malls instead!

bigmike86 · Post by **bigmike86** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:07 pm

I know, unfortunately my wife was one of six kids and manages to be super stylish but extremely thrifty! The real issue is that we just had put in place a plan to budget and save and then next thing we know we are a family of 3 instead of two! AHH! This should hold us off for kids for a while

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:08 pm

NAVHDA Green Book or Chuck Johnson's book on versatiles. Shorthairs are not non-slip retrievers, so I don't favor pure retriever methods. I do like timelines, though. If they haven't done themselves in by two, they might be worth some effort.

Personally, I pretty much went back to Delmar Smith at the end, with a lot of positive operant training and an emphasis on development of natural ability vs. rote drilling.

pinebrookkennel · Post by **pinebrookkennel** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:16 pm

Mike
My wife was thumbing through one of my hunting mags and saw an add for the new astro collar. To my suprise she said I should have one of those for our dog.

bigmike86 · Post by **bigmike86** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:35 pm

Lucky man!

Well once my wife loves Ollie as much as she would her own child (and we are getting close, we love him!) I will start my tactical guilt-trip process of making her feel bad for being the reason we lost our dog even though it hasn't actually happened. Its a strategy that i learned from my Mom and it is highly valuable.

Sorry we are getting way off topic but this is very entertaining

bigmike86 · Post by **bigmike86** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:44 pm

And if it doesn't work I will do what the army does. Strap on a GPS tracker called a BFT (Blue Force Tracker)

All I have to do is strap the following GPS antennae on the pup (see below)

Blueforce%20Tracker.jpg

And I will carry the following green items in a back pack to see real time updates on where he is on brand new imagery.

250px-Monmouth_FBCB2.jpg

Sound like a feasible plan? It should only be a couple hundred pounds.

Also is there an award for thread ADHD? Do I win?? Do I win??? Do I OH SHINY!

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:14 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
and also gives you a "standardized" time line of where your pup might be at a given age. That is why I like this book,
And this is why I frown as I and I think most real trainers will agree there is no such thing but trying to keep up with one is the quickest way to mess up your pup. Dogs progress at their own schedule and no two are alike.

Ezzy

Absolutely! It takes as long as it takes!

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:19 pm

bigmike86 wrote:Lucky man!

Well once my wife loves Ollie as much as she would her own child (and we are getting close, we love him!) I will start my tactical guilt-trip process of making her feel bad for being the reason we lost our dog even though it hasn't actually happened. Its a strategy that i learned from my Mom and it is highly valuable.

Sorry we are getting way off topic but this is very entertaining

I'd say you live on the edge. You've taken the photo of her out of your avatar and inserted your dog! Your a good man!

So, how does mom's plan work?

bigmike86 · Post by **bigmike86** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:39 pm

It's a persistant method containing 2 main fronts. One is atritting the patience of the enemy by never letting up and the second is a Psychological Ops approach to insert a fictitious event in the enemy's mind and then make them feel bad for it, leading to getting your way. Maybe I could write a book on it when I am old and have it perfected and will include it with dog training books

tabcha63 · Post by **tabcha63** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:41 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
and also gives you a "standardized" time line of where your pup might be at a given age. That is why I like this book,
And this is why I frown as I and I think most real trainers will agree there is no such thing but trying to keep up with one is the quickest way to mess up your pup. Dogs progress at their own schedule and no two are alike.

Ezzy

I agree, all dogs like people progress at a different rate. But atleast it give a novice a guideline. My problem was all the gundog books I read didnt give a guideline to follow when it came to OB, when to intro the ecollar, etc... I just wanted an idea, not a hard fast rule. Its like when I take my kids (and they are very young yet), the doc asks are they doing X yet? I say yes/no, the doc dosent get on me or the kid if they're not, the doc is just getting an idea if its a fast/slow learner. Just like a dog, have a idea where the general population is with respect to age and help learn your dog. Is it a fast learner or slow learner, just as you learn if you can put alot of pressure on your dog or not. For what its worth, I know crap about training dogs. My pup is only a year old and he is teaching me WAY more than Im teaching him

Now, another reason I like that book. One of the things in the dook was to handle the dogs mouth, feet and eyes (blowing in the eyes to simulate removing weed seeds). I did this periodically over about a month as the book said. When I went to the NA test, during the physical portion the Senior Judge asked me if I have been working/handling him (cause they check their teeth and coat [and from my understanding some pups dont like getting their teeth checked

]).

I wouldnt say this is the best book on the market, but it does pick up alot of outside information that I would have never thought to ask in the first place.

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:11 pm

The finest and most useful book on training pointing dogs is Pointing Dogs, Their Training and Handling, by Earl C. Crangle. I believe that it may still be available from Androscoggin Publishing.

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:23 pm

I have 'Wing and Shot' by Wehle and 'Training Pointing Dogs' by Long. Both are great and cover a lot of ground. I also got the 'Wing and Shot' videos as well as some of the Smith videos. I totally empathize with the rising price tag but figure what the heck, you can't take it with you and it's something you can reference if (i.e. when) you get another dog in the future

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:53 pm

Not sure if it was hit on above, one of the most import things you can do is pick a method and stick with it.

IMO consistency is the hardest part of training dogs, being consistent in the message you are giving the dog and consistently spending time training the dog.

You also might be careful with too much obedience too early.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:11 pm

bigmike86 wrote:And if it doesn't work I will do what the army does. Strap on a GPS tracker called a BFT (Blue Force Tracker)

All I have to do is strap the following GPS antennae on the pup (see below)
Blueforce%20Tracker.jpg
And I will carry the following green items in a back pack to see real time updates on where he is on brand new imagery.
250px-Monmouth_FBCB2.jpg
Sound like a feasible plan? It should only be a couple hundred pounds.

Also is there an award for thread ADHD? Do I win?? Do I win??? Do I OH SHINY!

No. There's lineup for that award.

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:38 am

Try Training with Mo the book and tape together really easy to understand.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:46 am

Books are great.............for reading
How about getting out there and just doing it?
Books are good for getting a game plan
A game plan that gets mis- placed as soon as the dog doesn't respond as the book says
All a new puppy owner needs to do is get the nose working,set the stage for team work and set in place obedience

For a DK you need to be doing field and wood searches,drags,simple retrieves on a check cord and basic obedience
When the dog is mature enough begin SmartFetch
Accustom the dog to you walking around him when he's on point,as he matures and gets more intensity in his points touch him,give a gentle push foward on his backside,he should want to resist and push back,toss some twigs,tug on the leash, etc, get the dog staunch

ROTTnBRITT · Post by **ROTTnBRITT** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:55 am

Training the versatile hunting dog.

Not sure what ppl think about it, but I used it for reading material.
It cover all aspects of NAVHDA.

Maybe someone can chime in with there thoughts on it.

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:00 am

Ben O. Williams' book Training Bird Dogs: The Instinctive Method, is a really good book as well. It covers everything about everything and it'll explain why the "time-line" method isn't something you want to go with.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:26 am

bigmike86 wrote:It's a persistant method containing 2 main fronts. One is atritting the patience of the enemy by never letting up and the second is a Psychological Ops approach to insert a fictitious event in the enemy's mind and then make them feel bad for it, leading to getting your way. Maybe I could write a book on it when I am old and have it perfected and will include it with dog training books

Ya know I read this and then looked at the pup in the avatar and look at his expression. He's wondering if any body is really gonna buy that!

Ollie is a non-beliver!

Puppies! ain't they great!

tnbndr · Post by **tnbndr** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:40 am

Ollie is a nice looking pup. Gotta love those DK's.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:45 am

When it comes to dogs testing within the german system the timeline is very important.
These dogs are supposed to be bred to mature early.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:50 am

I will start my tactical guilt-trip process of making her feel bad for being the reason we lost our dog even though it hasn't actually happened. Its a strategy that i learned from my Mom and it is highly valuable.

You must be Italian

Does your wife read this forum?

bigmike86 · Post by **bigmike86** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:44 pm

Yes I Of course I am Italian, how did you know!?

And yea, I am worried about the timeline since his first test will be the derby at 10 months. We are getting his nose working and I can see the wheels turning in his head as he is figuring out what he wants to point, its so amazing to watch him figure things out!

I am getting the smart fetch now but just so by the time he is ready I will be ready. We are going to start small drags this weekend and see how he does.

Also I understand that you should follow the pup and not the timeline, but for a first time dog trainer a timeline could be a useful tool. What if I thought I could FF Ollie in a week? I mean I don't but hopefully some timelines in these books have given others more realistic expectations for their dogs progression.

I have trained soldiers and taken them to war, and honestly its not that much different, everyone needs their own style of leadership.

Also no my wife doesnt read this forum! But she is a lovely lady!

And Don, He isn't wondering that, he is dreaming of the title!

tabcha63 · Post by **tabcha63** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:30 pm

I agree that a time line is a waste and can screw up a dog by being rushed. However, for the novice trainer its nice to understand the evolution of how a dog should progress. Also, it requires the person training to understand that not every dog develops the same. You have to be able to step out side of your training and asses if what you are doing is helping the pup progress. Like I said earlier my pup got a 0 for pointing in the NA Test, but that was MY fault and Im willing to take the blame and not pass the blame to the pup.

The other thing about a time line is knowing when to introduce what. For example, I was at a NAVHDA training event (and by all means I am very new to this too) and talking to a guy who had a 4 mo old pup and was getting ready to buy an ecollar to use on him. I told him that, atleast from what I have read and been told, not to even think about using one until ATLEAST 6 mo. Same goes for FF, according to the timeline wait until a year old. I would have never known this without a time line. Am I FF my pup at 1 year, no. He turned a year old on Sept 20, I am waiting until about Jan or Feb to do it, just so I can get his first season of hunting behind him.

That is the thing about timelines, I know most trainers dont like them, but for the LEVEL HEADED (that is the key) novice trainer it helps to know when about to start various introductions.

bigmike86 · Post by **bigmike86** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:34 pm

Well my dog is getting a suprise the first day he has all adult teeth in. SUPRISE!!!! (Then I jam a dummy in his mouth!) Step 1 complete, right?!

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:33 am

bigmike86 wrote:Well my dog is getting a suprise the first day he has all adult teeth in. SUPRISE!!!! (Then I jam a dummy in his mouth!) Step 1 complete, right?!

Might be wise if you found a trainer for your dog. Don't think SURPRISE i in most curriculums.

Ezy

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:44 am

Surprise is OK
It's the "jam" part that is scary

mess up this part and you got a lot of problems to resolve

bigmike86 · Post by **bigmike86** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:19 am

I guess the sarcasm was not as evident as I thought. I am waiting for the smart fetch program in the mail and will have a few months to study it and ask questions before we FF. We should be ok. And if something goes terribly wrong I will consult a professional when i get back to the states in a year

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:27 pm

Hey Mike I thoiught that was funny. I have no doubt that the way you said it was not what you ment! I mean after all, you threw your wife out of the avatar to put Ollie in! My first thought when I read that was, "I wonder if he's got a dummy in his unit small eniugh to fit in hi mouth"!

You keep on having fun with him! He's not a setter but he'll do in a pinch!

bigmike86 · Post by **bigmike86** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:04 pm

Thanks Don!

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:12 pm

I don't think that dog could walk with the tracker on lol. Also a lot of people dog get sarcasm ... I think it is a newer idea that you learn while being screwed with in the military. Have fun with that puppy and if you want to get some videos try out bill gibbons website.. magmabirddogs....

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:22 am

I got the sarcasm in your post
being you are new to gundog training,didn't know how much truth was in jest

Knightfarms · Post by **Knightfarms** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:05 pm

My library has most books suggested on here... Maybe you lve near a good library system, too.

bigmike86 wrote:I want to read as many books as I can about it but I think my wife is going to murder me if I keep swiping my card for my dog. I promised her the spending would slow down but there are so many cool things that I need! I want it all!

Also she wasn't happy when I told her how much an e collar is!