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That is my thoughts also. I don't like to try and change a dog's natural range. If I have a dog that runs too big for me or is a boot licker, I will probably just accept the fact that he/she is not the right dog for me. Working at changing the dog's natural range is going to be frustrating for me and the dog and be no fun for either of us. JMO.live4point wrote:I've seen a piece of log chain used,but it didn't work either,think it just made the dog's legs stronger so it could run biggerHate to say it,but don't buy a Ferrari when what you need is a good pickup truck.Good luck,and when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.
I absolutely do not buy into that. I have been hunting successfully behind BIG running dogs for more than fifty years now. I can take a dog that can and does run a borderline horseback All AGE race, and I mean American Field All AGE, and hunt that dog successfully on a forty acre preserve field. No big deal. That is what a bird dog does...hunt birds...for the hunter. A good bird dog opens up when it needs to and closes down when it needs to. It has what it takes to do whatever it must do to find birds.live4point wrote:I've seen a piece of log chain used,but it didn't work either,think it just made the dog's legs stronger so it could run biggerHate to say it,but don't buy a Ferrari when what you need is a good pickup truck.Good luck,and when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.
Never said I don't enjoy hunting behind him - just need to rein him in a bit. Nothing better than seeing my female sitting on a bird 300 yards away and knowing that she will sit until I get to her. My other pointer is a big running dog as well and has found me plenty of birds so no need for a foot hunting dog for me when I already have 2 of them. That being said - wouldn't mind a lab again - wife might - the lab sized lawn bombs are something that she doesn't appreciatelive4point wrote:Good luck,and when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.
Man this big running dog crowd can be pretty touchy.They are also the ones out there yelling and whistling to try and keep their dogs in range.I've seen it a thousand times,makes it sound like a dang circus out there.Those pen raised birds may hold for the big running dogs point while your 300 yds back and running to your point,but our wild pheasant wont,they will flip your big running dog off and be a mile away before you can run to a point.I'm glad they like those big runners though,actually I wish everybody liked them,they don't hurt the bird numbers muchbirddogger wrote:That is my thoughts also. I don't like to try and change a dog's natural range. If I have a dog that runs too big for me or is a boot licker, I will probably just accept the fact that he/she is not the right dog for me. Working at changing the dog's natural range is going to be frustrating for me and the dog and be no fun for either of us. JMO.live4point wrote:I've seen a piece of log chain used,but it didn't work either,think it just made the dog's legs stronger so it could run biggerHate to say it,but don't buy a Ferrari when what you need is a good pickup truck.Good luck,and when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.
Charlie
I don't understand the flack over this....It is simply a personal preference and to be called ignorant because of it is ignorant in itself. Nobody said a big running dog couldn't adjust to the terrain they are hunting because they certainly can, but while some will adjust on their own, others have to constantly be hacked to draw them back in...I have seen both. Personally, I would rather hunt a dog or breed of dog whose natural range keeps me and the dog both happy and, BTW, I prefer a fairly big running dog....I want them out there finding birds, it will actually save me a lot of walking vs. a close working dog, but I have no desire to own a dog with extreme range. Call it ignorant if you want but it is not always going to be easy to keep a dog like this reined in.live4point wrote:Like I said before,your right,I think everybody else ought to have one of those big running dogs,or better yet get 2 of them to hunt together!
Sharon wrote:"I am a crusty old fart with waaaaay too much time on my hands." Quote
Now you can't be a crusty guy and "the most fun guy". ( "I want the pup to think the sun rises and sets on me and I am where the fun is at. ") . quote
Now you can't be both. Which one is it.?
Whats the breeding on your pup if you dont nind me askin?elkhuntingfool wrote:I've been working with my pointer on birds - but on a check cord and working him close - but not forcing it - but now it's time to let the boy loose. His breeding is for horseback hunting/trials - neither of which I want to do. But...my question is what should I expect from him? He does hold point - but I've been pretty close to him and have been able to whoa him but he does that on his own as well. If he's out of my visual range what should I expect from him? How do I keep him from running into the next county![]()
Thanks!
Can't agree more.birddogger wrote:I don't understand the flack over this....It is simply a personal preference and to be called ignorant because of it is ignorant in itself. Nobody said a big running dog couldn't adjust to the terrain they are hunting because they certainly can, but while some will adjust on their own, others have to constantly be hacked to draw them back in...I have seen both. Personally, I would rather hunt a dog or breed of dog whose natural range keeps me and the dog both happy and, BTW, I prefer a fairly big running dog....I want them out there finding birds, it will actually save me a lot of walking vs. a close working dog, but I have no desire to own a dog with extreme range. Call it ignorant if you want but it is not always going to be easy to keep a dog like this reined in.live4point wrote:Like I said before,your right,I think everybody else ought to have one of those big running dogs,or better yet get 2 of them to hunt together!
Being a member of this forum has sure taught me how arrogant and touchy so many of these trialers are. You can't possibly be as smart or know as much about dogs if you are not in their little group. Sorry for the rant but because you prefer something different...you are ignorant?? :roll:
I agree and have seen nothing that is putting down a large percentage of our members. Just might apply to a few that need the reminder but overall it is still a few.Sharon wrote:I won't comment much on that , but I don't think one should put down a significant percentage of their membership, who make the most informative , experienced posts that keep this forum attractive.
I believe it is much easier to rein a dog in than get one to run bigger.
Really birddogger? You haven't been paying attention have you.birddogger wrote:I don't understand the flack over this....live4point wrote:Like I said before,your right,I think everybody else ought to have one of those big running dogs,or better yet get 2 of them to hunt together!
Being a member of this forum has sure taught me how arrogant and touchy so many of these trialers are. You can't possibly be as smart or know as much about dogs if you are not in their little group. Sorry for the rant but because you prefer something different...you are ignorant?? :roll:
And this is the ignorancelive4point wrote:when you get sick of that big running crap
Now I am not a trialer, but it is a stretch of the imagination to me how you could refer to someone responding to such dogmatic comments as arrogant. Methinks the kettle is the pot.live4point wrote: Those pen raised birds may hold for the big running dogs point while your 300 yds back and running to your point,but our wild pheasant wont,they will flip your big running dog off and be a mile away before you can run to a point.
OK, I will give you that...I must have over looked this statement and don't agree with calling a big running dog crap and can see where some may be offended by it. But I still stand by my comments.and when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.
I never called anybodys dog "crap',and birdog1968 knows it,I used the word "crap' describing a behavior.I gave an honest opinion as to a dogs range,and was called ignorant for it.I dont know why you get such obnoxious remarks from some of the big running dog people,I dont know if it's a competition thing ,or a fear someone might say something that causes them to lose a sale of a dog,I really don't know,but you never see the reverse out of the guys that like to hunt closer working dogs,we don't care if someone think's our dogs hunt too close,and generally wont say a word if someone says it,because most of us wouldn't give a dime for a semi truck load of big runners,we have no use for them.If a person was to ask the question as to what to do about his dog that didn't hunt as big as he liked,I would recommend him the reverse, getting a dog that hunted a little bigger.A lot of us don't want to be "handling" a dog all during the hunt,we want a dog that, naturally,without being yelled at,whistled at,or shocked,hunts at the range we like.I have seen many a hunter,including myself,with a dog that runs too big for them,switch to a dog that hunts at a comfortable range they like and it makes for a much more enjoyable hunt for them.I've had a many a pleasurable hunt with dogs that the only time I had to communicate with them was to praise them for doing a good job.For some on this forum,if you make any kind of comment about not liking a big running dogs range, you are ignorant,don't know a thing about dogs,don't know how to "handle" a dog and on and on.I don't know how in the world I managed to get all those good ole bird dogs trained and had so many good hunts over the years without all their expertice,but somehow I managed-Remember,this is called the GUNDOG forum,not the Field Trial forum.birddogger wrote:OK, I will give you that...I must have over looked this statement and don't agree with calling a big running dog crap and can see where some may be offended by it. But I still stand by my comments.and when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.
Charlie
Thanks for the great answerlive4point wrote:I've seen a piece of log chain used,but it didn't work either,think it just made the dog's legs stronger so it could run biggerHate to say it,but don't buy a Ferrari when what you need is a good pickup truck.Good luck,and when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.
Remember ... to be a trial dog, it has to be a bird dog first.live4point wrote:Allow me to examine the response by live4point:birddogger wrote:OK, I will give you that...I must have over looked this statement and don't agree with calling a big running dog crap and can see where some may be offended by it. But I still stand by my comments. Charlieand when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.
I never called anybodys dog "crap',and birdog1968 knows it,
YES YOU DID. READ WHAT YOU WROTE. The meaning of the phrase "Big running crap" is pretty plain and clear.
I used the word "crap' describing a behavior.I gave an honest opinion as to a dogs range,and was called ignorant for it.
AS WELL YOU SHOULD BE. IT WAS RUDE AND IGNORANT.
I dont know why you get such obnoxious remarks from some of the big running dog people,I dont know if it's a competition thing ,or a fear someone might say something that causes them to lose a sale of a dog,I really don't know,but you never see the reverse out of the guys that like to hunt closer working dogs,we don't care if someone think's our dogs hunt too close,and generally wont say a word if someone says it,because most of us wouldn't give a dime for a semi truck load of big runners,we have no use for them.
NEVER??? REALLY. The above does not sound like NEVER. Funny how obnoxious statements seem to engender obnoxious responses, isn't it??
If a person was to ask the question as to what to do about his dog that didn't hunt as big as he liked,I would recommend him the reverse, getting a dog that hunted a little bigger.A lot of us don't want to be "handling" a dog all during the hunt,we want a dog that, naturally,without being yelled at,whistled at,or shocked,hunts at the range we like.I have seen many a hunter,including myself,with a dog that runs too big for them,switch to a dog that hunts at a comfortable range they like and it makes for a much more enjoyable hunt for them.
I looked and looked and nowhere could I find where you were appointed spokesman for a group of Gundog forum members who prefer close working dogs.
Your opinons are your own. Solely your own. It is dishonest to claim to represent anyone else, much less "A lot of us"...whatever that means. yYou are out there on that limb...all by yourself.
I've had a many a pleasurable hunt with dogs that the only time I had to communicate with them was to praise them for doing a good job.
Funny you should mention this...SO HAVE I and I suspect...so have a lot of folks on this board, irrespective of what "kind" of dog they hunt behind.
For some on this forum,if you make any kind of comment about not liking a big running dogs range, you are ignorant,don't know a thing about dogs,don't know how to "handle" a dog and on and on.
For some on this forum...The above seems to be...unfortunately...too true.
I don't know how in the world I managed to get all those good ole bird dogs trained and had so many good hunts over the years without all their expertice,but somehow I managed-
That, again, appears to be one man's opinon. It would seem that we only have your word for that and I for one am not sure what that is worth given the above comments.
Remember,this is called the GUNDOG forum,not the Field Trial forum.
It sounds like you have never ran him yet, so it may not be as big of a deal as you think. Just because a dog comes from horseback trial stock does not mean it will be un-huntable from foot. In fact it's quite the opposite and there is a huge difference between big running dogs and run offs or self hunters.elkhuntingfool wrote:His breeding is for horseback hunting/trials - neither of which I want to do. But...my question is what should I expect from him? He does hold point - but I've been pretty close to him and have been able to whoa him but he does that on his own as well. If he's out of my visual range what should I expect from him? How do I keep him from running into the next county
His breeding may, or may not, result in a dog that naturally wants to run big.elkhuntingfool wrote:I've been working with my pointer on birds - but on a check cord and working him close - but not forcing it - but now it's time to let the boy loose. His breeding is for horseback hunting/trials - neither of which I want to do. But...my question is what should I expect from him? He does hold point - but I've been pretty close to him and have been able to whoa him but he does that on his own as well. If he's out of my visual range what should I expect from him? How do I keep him from running into the next county![]()
Thanks!
Our dogs seem to love us, no matter what we write or type. Perhaps that is because they cannot read!!live4point wrote:Alot of the so called adjusting to cover,is not adjusting to cover at all,it's the cover adjusting the dog.Just like you and I can't run through chest high grass or the timber like we can open ground ,neither can a dog,put them in chest high grass and a close working dog gets closer yet,and a big running dog will hunt closer.If it works out that the bigger runner is at a range in the heavy stuff that works for the hunter and gets the job done theres not a thing wrong with that,but when that same dog starts hunting fencerows of cut grain fields that same dog is gonna go like a streak,if that's what a guy likes,then no problem,but thats when they may be hunting way too big for the next guy.I don't know how you argue that a person is better off with a dog that naturally hunts at the range they like,I think some just like to argue.At least my setter doesn't think I'm ignorant!
live4point wrote:I think some just like to argue.At least my setter doesn't think I'm ignorant!
I have dogs that that run a variety of range and I enjoy them all, I also handle them all. I think those who provide advice based on experience rather than " I have seen" or "my friend" have a hard time dealing with those that think the way to make a point is to become increasingly louder. These same folks latch on to buzz phrases like "i ain't politically correct" and wear them as a badge of honor when what they really mean is "I apologize for my poor communication skills..."I've seen a piece of log chain used,but it didn't work either,think it just made the dog's legs stronger so it could run bigger Hate to say it,but don't buy a Ferrari when what you need is a good pickup truck.Good luck,and when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.
live4point wrote:I never called anybodys dog "crap',and birdog1968 knows it,I used the word "crap' describing a behavior.I gave an honest opinion as to a dogs range,and was called ignorant for it.I dont know why you get such obnoxious remarks from some of the big running dog people,I dont know if it's a competition thing ,or a fear someone might say something that causes them to lose a sale of a dog,I really don't know,but you never see the reverse out of the guys that like to hunt closer working dogs,we don't care if someone think's our dogs hunt too close,and generally wont say a word if someone says it,because most of us wouldn't give a dime for a semi truck load of big runners,we have no use for them.If a person was to ask the question as to what to do about his dog that didn't hunt as big as he liked,I would recommend him the reverse, getting a dog that hunted a little bigger.A lot of us don't want to be "handling" a dog all during the hunt,we want a dog that, naturally,without being yelled at,whistled at,or shocked,hunts at the range we like.I have seen many a hunter,including myself,with a dog that runs too big for them,switch to a dog that hunts at a comfortable range they like and it makes for a much more enjoyable hunt for them.I've had a many a pleasurable hunt with dogs that the only time I had to communicate with them was to praise them for doing a good job.For some on this forum,if you make any kind of comment about not liking a big running dogs range, you are ignorant,don't know a thing about dogs,don't know how to "handle" a dog and on and on.I don't know how in the world I managed to get all those good ole bird dogs trained and had so many good hunts over the years without all their expertice,but somehow I managed-Remember,this is called the GUNDOG forum,not the Field Trial forum.
RayGubernat wrote:Two things you can do...
First is to teach the dog to "bend" with you. Basically this is turning the dog, on command, first with the checkcord, then later with an e-collar. Once the dog learns the turn command and responds to it, you can begin to let the dog roll in the field. When it reaches YOUR comfort zone limet...turn the dog.
Enough repetitions will instill YOUR comfort zone into the dog's memory banks and they will start to operate within that zone. If the dog is a really HUGE runner, this may be more of a fight than with some other dogs, but I have done this with big running dogs with pedigrees that included dogs like Warhoop Jake, Redemption's Reward, Bonafide, Guard Rail, Stone Free, Miller's Silver Bullett...and those names were not too far down the line.
The other thing you can do is to call the dog in and if it does not turn back to you, do a 180 and go in the opposite direction. Say nothing and walk away.
I am not a big fan of drags and chains and such. They will slow a dog down temporarily, but they do nothing to modify the dog's behavior. Sooooo, eventually, when the dog gets strong enough, it will run out of sight with the drag on...not to mention what it will do with the drag off. I feel you have to get the dog to WANT to do what you want it to do. You gotta get into their head.
BTW, my dogs are NEVER let loose in a training or hunting scenario without an e-collar on. If I need it to assure compliance to a given command, they are wearing it and it is turned on. If I don't need it, nothing is lost.
About the only time I turn a dog loose without an e-collar on is at a trial.
I have always had big running dogs out of major league dogs. I make a determined effort to get the puppy to like me when they are very young. I want the pup to think the sun rises and sets on me and I am where the fun is at. I have found that if the dog likes you and wants to stay with you...it will. If it don't...it won't.
RayG
Yeah, I could have typed up something for the original question but unless you get something weighed in before Ray does there is usually no point to it.Sharon wrote:RayGubernat wrote:Two things you can do...
First is to teach the dog to "bend" with you. Basically this is turning the dog, on command, first with the checkcord, then later with an e-collar. Once the dog learns the turn command and responds to it, you can begin to let the dog roll in the field. When it reaches YOUR comfort zone limet...turn the dog.
Enough repetitions will instill YOUR comfort zone into the dog's memory banks and they will start to operate within that zone. If the dog is a really HUGE runner, this may be more of a fight than with some other dogs, but I have done this with big running dogs with pedigrees that included dogs like Warhoop Jake, Redemption's Reward, Bonafide, Guard Rail, Stone Free, Miller's Silver Bullett...and those names were not too far down the line.
The other thing you can do is to call the dog in and if it does not turn back to you, do a 180 and go in the opposite direction. Say nothing and walk away.
I am not a big fan of drags and chains and such. They will slow a dog down temporarily, but they do nothing to modify the dog's behavior. Sooooo, eventually, when the dog gets strong enough, it will run out of sight with the drag on...not to mention what it will do with the drag off. I feel you have to get the dog to WANT to do what you want it to do. You gotta get into their head.
BTW, my dogs are NEVER let loose in a training or hunting scenario without an e-collar on. If I need it to assure compliance to a given command, they are wearing it and it is turned on. If I don't need it, nothing is lost.
About the only time I turn a dog loose without an e-collar on is at a trial.
I have always had big running dogs out of major league dogs. I make a determined effort to get the puppy to like me when they are very young. I want the pup to think the sun rises and sets on me and I am where the fun is at. I have found that if the dog likes you and wants to stay with you...it will. If it don't...it won't.
RayG
After reading through all the "words" this post actually gives the questioner something to run with.... bending a dog . Didn't want it to get lost in the "word storm".
Sire pedigree - http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1477tn red wrote:
Whats the breeding on your pup if you dont nind me askin?
I've had him out and he runs big but isn't ready to run big on his own because he doesn't hold point long enough for me to catch up to him. I wish thru osmosis that he would learn to hold point from my femaleRon R wrote: It sounds like you have never ran him yet, so it may not be as big of a deal as you think. Just because a dog comes from horseback trial stock does not mean it will be un-huntable from foot. In fact it's quite the opposite and there is a huge difference between big running dogs and run offs or self hunters.