Hold on first Scent?

[goldenpatch29]

I was wondering what is the best way to teach a dog to hold on first scent, without the aid of a launcher? (which I do not have).
Or is this just something that he will learn through expirence as he gets older?

[SetterNut]

A launcher gives you more control of the situration. If he moves after making scent, you pop the bird.

Without a launcher you are going to need very spooky wild birds, that will not take much pressure. It will just take more time.

[DonF]

You need a helper and be pretty good at reading the dog. Best to come cross wind with the dog on one end of the check cord and you on the other. You need to be aware of when the dog hit's scent and as soon as it does, stop him while making a circle around the back of him in effort to stop movement toward the bird. Work your way up the check cord till you get to the dog. Bend over and reach over his back and put your hand back under him. Have a very short hold on the check cord or gently hold onto the collar. Then your assistent come's around the front of the dog and toward the bird to flush it. If your assistent see's your dog start to move at all, have him stop immediately and you simple lift the dog just a bit and sit it back down. Your assistent must remain still till you get the dog still. Then from where the assistent stopped, he starts again. If the dog tries to move at all again repete the whole process.

I did just that a lot of years ago and it works well. No matter what, have fun with it. No where near as fast as remote lancher's but it works. Just remember, your gonna have your hands on him showing him what you want, be gentle.

I should explain why to come cross wind. By doing that you can adjust the distence to the bird when the dog hit's scent. You really don't want it hitting the bird a long way off and establishing point, if it does the point will most likely be soft and the location unsure. Coming in closer the dog will get a good wiff and down the road will learn just how much wiff it can have on a wild bird. If your dog start's hitting birds 30+ yds out, it won't be able to hold a wild bird. Nor will it be able to accurately locate it. Go to a field trial and watch handler's flushing birds for their dog's. The one's having a hard time putting the bird in the air have dog's that stopped at first scent. Poor location and no control of the bird. Often the bird will just run out on the dog. Handlers that seem to be lucky and find their birds quick, do so because their dogs have the bird well located and are close enough to hold the bird in place. Learn to judge the location by looking at your dog. If the head is down, the bird is close, bugged eyes is very close. Head up the bird is farther off. Glancing with it's eyes around or soft on the point and the dog got scent but has no idea where the bird is.

[goldenpatch29]

A launcher gives you more control of the situration. If he moves after making scent, you pop the bird.

Without a launcher you are going to need very spooky wild birds, that will not take much pressure. It will just take more time.

Thats the problem!!!!.....I have very spooky wild birds, and he points them far enough away not to spook them, but then wants to creep up on them as close as he can, and then bumps them every time. Because of the thick briars and cover it is very hard to get to him fast and almost impossible to put a check cord on him, for risk of getting tangled up. i think that this may be something that he will have to learn from experience.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

golden patch,
1st you do not teach your dog to hold at 1st scent, he either has the talent or does not, however you can make him steady to wing and shot. We do have a trick that we use with some of our young dogs who want to creep, using the T&B collar when you see the pup
lock up on original point, beep him just once, this tends to hold the dog especially if he has been beeper trained. If he breakes point you must pick him up and return him to original point spot however, good luck with your training.
RGD/Dave

The very best Grouse dogs learn to walk mature spooky Grouse to final set up, where the master can flush and gun the Grouse, the Grouse give lessons nothing else can. If the dog has the talent he will instinctively start to learn how to handle the Grouse, it takes an exceptional dog to out wit the Grouse in his own back yard, once a hunter sees this interface between Grouse and dog take place, he will never forget it.

Pine Creek Ryman Daisy on Grouse point after walking a spooky Pa Grouse to final set point. You can not teach instictive talent, however a good Grouse dog can educate himself thru repeated experience. A few dogs like Daisy are just plain born with it.

[ST8 UPPOINTERS]

That couldn't be farther from the truth ryman..

[Ryman Gun Dog]

ST8,
You are welcome to your uneducated point of view. Have been doing this for 50 years now please feel free to do your training your own way however.
RGD/Dave

[ST8 UPPOINTERS]

You have been training for 50 years and still don't think you can train a dog to stop on first scent? You need to get out of those woods Dave, you seem to be a bit behind the times when it comes to training. No offence ment. I'm sure you are a great grouse hunter from those 2 pics we've seen 100 times . Goldenp it sounds to me like the dog stopping on scent isn't the problem but the fact that the dog is creeping and busting birds is the issue. Dogs that creep are tough to to deal with, is the dog whoa broke?

[ezzy333]

ST8,
You are welcome to your uneducated point of view. Have been doing this for 50 years now please feel free to do your training your own way however.
RGD/Dave

Been there a little longer than you have and stopping a pup on first scent is exactly what we do and if the pup moves you launch the bird. Later with more experience the dog may start to get smarter and learn to stalk the bird if it moves but not before. Probably the difference in our methods is in my case the Master is looking down on my dog and I and we are just the peons that are doing what we like when we are in the field or woods and hopefully is letting us do the best we can.

There are different methods and normally they have little to do with education other than the way we learned that works for us.

Happy Hunting

Ezzy

[bwjohn]

it sounds like you need to start whoa breaking or teaching him not to chase.

I think you have the best situation, your dog points at first scent it sounds like. know you just have to teach the obedience to hold point and some of that will come with age. But you need to find a way to correct him when he does flush the bird. In a training situation you would teach the dog to stand still no matter what, that is the whoa breaking. Then you correct them if they move.

So, once your dog establishes point which he is and far enough away not to scare the birds initially, once he does move then you have a way to stop him. then you can eventually go out and flush the bird yourself instead of him flushing.

hope that makes since,
brandon

[SetterNut]

Goldenpatch
How old is your pup? Some of this can just be age and bird exposure.
If you have spooky wild birds to work the pup on you are lucky, there is nothing better for a pup to learn on.

[birddogger]

ST8,
You are welcome to your uneducated point of view. Have been doing this for 50 years now please feel free to do your training your own way however.
RGD/Dave

Been there a little longer than you have and stopping a pup on first scent is exactly what we do and if the pup moves you launch the bird. Later with more experience the dog may start to get smarter and learn to stalk the bird if it moves but not before. Probably the difference in our methods is in my case the Master is looking down on my dog and I and we are just the peons that are doing what we like when we are in the field or woods and hopefully is letting us do the best we can.

There are different methods and normally they have little to do with education other than the way we learned that works for us.

Happy Hunting

Ezzy

AMEN to that!!

charlie

[DonF]

I don't teach dogs to stop on first scent. But there is an invisable line I will not let them go past. A dog that hit's first scent at say 20 yds will have a hard time holding the birds. The dog that learns how to work the birds and not over incroach, will not only hold the birds better, but will also locate them better for you. If your dog is out much more than 20 yds, it will not be able to hold the birds. That doesn't mean you'll never get the birds at those distences but if they decide to walk away, they will. A dog that closes the distence to about ten yards or even closer will hold the birds and will have them very accutately located. I don't let them pass the aprox ten yard limit. You can't tell how close the dogcan get to a bird without moving it, but that is between the dog and the bird. Different birds will teach the dog. The dog will, fiven time, learn just how close it can get to the spookest bird and you'll find it pointing at about that distence on most birds and it will more time's than not, hold the bird, whatever it is. Not to say first scent is never right. When I start the out, I try to get them in about ten yards off the bird. Then just as they hit scent, I pop the bird. I don't allow them to point until they do it so fast it'll make my heart stop! If they hit the bird to far out, I'll come around them between the dog and the bird, walk to the dog and relocate it right into the bird. If it goes past my magic ten yards, I pop the bird. Not long till the dog learns how close it can get. But that is strictly for training purpose's. The dog start's on wild birds like that and they learn to play their game. I wish I knew just how the dog and bird communate, as I'm sure there is something there. But I don't so I allow the dog to get just so close in training and no more. Same goes for working the up wind side of the bird. I see the dog oing that and I pop the bird that he doesn't even know is there. Unless cover is really great, that is what a wild bird will do. But by stopping at first scent no matter where that may be will only hold the dog back. It must learn the commands but, it must play by the rules the birds set. Think about that next time you go out training and ask yourself if the dog can hold and accurately locate the bird for you if you don't think so, then why make the dog stop way back there.

Years ago, A.J. Marquart showed up with a couple dogs he'd taught to stop at first scent. Everybody was really impressed until they found out he couldn't find a lot of the birds, it pointed to far off and didn't have then located well, he quit doing that and has gone on to be a very successful trainer. If I could afford him, I'd use him. He was just 18 back then and his dad owned the kennel.

[ST8 UPPOINTERS]

Great post donf!!!!

[brad27]

I don't teach dogs to stop on first scent. But there is an invisable line I will not let them go past. A dog that hit's first scent at say 20 yds will have a hard time holding the birds. The dog that learns how to work the birds and not over incroach, will not only hold the birds better, but will also locate them better for you. If your dog is out much more than 20 yds, it will not be able to hold the birds. That doesn't mean you'll never get the birds at those distences but if they decide to walk away, they will. A dog that closes the distence to about ten yards or even closer will hold the birds and will have them very accutately located. I don't let them pass the aprox ten yard limit. You can't tell how close the dogcan get to a bird without moving it, but that is between the dog and the bird. Different birds will teach the dog. The dog will, fiven time, learn just how close it can get to the spookest bird and you'll find it pointing at about that distence on most birds and it will more time's than not, hold the bird, whatever it is. Not to say first scent is never right. When I start the out, I try to get them in about ten yards off the bird. Then just as they hit scent, I pop the bird. I don't allow them to point until they do it so fast it'll make my heart stop! If they hit the bird to far out, I'll come around them between the dog and the bird, walk to the dog and relocate it right into the bird. If it goes past my magic ten yards, I pop the bird. Not long till the dog learns how close it can get. But that is strictly for training purpose's. The dog start's on wild birds like that and they learn to play their game. I wish I knew just how the dog and bird communate, as I'm sure there is something there. But I don't so I allow the dog to get just so close in training and no more. Same goes for working the up wind side of the bird. I see the dog oing that and I pop the bird that he doesn't even know is there. Unless cover is really great, that is what a wild bird will do. But by stopping at first scent no matter where that may be will only hold the dog back. It must learn the commands but, it must play by the rules the birds set. Think about that next time you go out training and ask yourself if the dog can hold and accurately locate the bird for you if you don't think so, then why make the dog stop way back there.

Years ago, A.J. Marquart showed up with a couple dogs he'd taught to stop at first scent. Everybody was really impressed until they found out he couldn't find a lot of the birds, it pointed to far off and didn't have then located well, he quit doing that and has gone on to be a very successful trainer. If I could afford him, I'd use him. He was just 18 back then and his dad owned the kennel.

I like the theory behind the HIggins releaser for this very reason.

[blackbart]

pointers try to get as close to the bird as they can. Crowding the biird is caused by the bird not flying. the biird launcher can back the dog off by launching the bird early. or when the pointer first scents the bird.

[DonF]

The Higgins realseer has one problem for me, I can't control the bird. It would be greast for dogs farther along but starrting out I have to be able to control the bird. And the bird must be a pigeon. All to often with pen raised birds, they go up and right back down, very seldom will a pigeon do that. To many pen raised birds also have the annoting habit of flying only so far and setting down, usually pooped. A pigeon simply does not do that, it laqnds well off the ground somewhere. This is not to say you can't train a dog only with pen raised birds, you can. But it will take longer and to often the dog looks like it was handled to the bird, lack of intensity. It is not really hunting as it would like to, it is simply going thru a routine it's been taught.

[AG74]

I was wondering what is the best way to teach a dog to hold on first scent, without the aid of a launcher? (which I do not have).
Or is this just something that he will learn through expirence as he gets older?

Here is a home made launcher I made if you don't want to buy one. Get a shoebox where the lid is part of the box (not a separate lid). I had a Nike running shoe box. Punch holes in it with a pen or pencil. Tie a long string (100' or more) to one of the holes on the underside of the box.

Now get some wild barn yard pigeons and put two or three or whatever inside the box, close it, place it upside down in the cover you are training in. Get another pigeon and dizzy it, place it near the box (scent bird). Run the string downwind direction.

Have your buddy get to the end of the string about the time you walk the dog in from cross wind like DonF describes. When the dog hits scent and creeps or doesnt point, or whatever you dont want him to do, pop the string releasing the birds like DonF described. When you pull the string the pigeons should fly away. you may have to flush the scent bird, or place it right next to the box, so the flipping of the box wakes it up too.

Now you have a cheap, home made launcher, and saved a tree by recycling a cardboard box...

Good luck, this method worked pretty well for me. Then in the field on wild Huns I had to run the dog on CC and once or twice I had to re-inforce this training. If he creeped or busted birds, I picked him up, set him back told him whoa and made him think for a moment or two. If I saw where the covey landed, I'd walk him in crosswind on the CC. Took only one or two times of doing this and he pointed every covey real well the rest of the season.

Now, the dog "handling" birds, the birds had to teach him that. He learned, and is still learning when to stop on first scent, and when he needs stronger sscent to pin the birds, etc, etc. Its all a learning process that only birds can do. But YES, you can "teach" the dog to STOP when he scents birds with DonF's technique. Good luck,
Al

[DogNewbie]

That's a homemade Higgins releaser. Creative idea. Have you tried it with chukar or quail?

[AG74]

That's a homemade Higgins releaser. Creative idea. Have you tried it with chukar or quail?

i hadn't actually hear of a Higgins until just now - I had to google it actually! I got the idea from a trainer I worked with who had "flip" boxes made out of iron mesh and a heavy piece of steel on top. Prob was, you had to kick it over with your foot to release the bird. So the dog would point, or creep or whatever and the partner had to be there with his toe on the box to flip it.

I just went to a farmer who had an empty grain bin with about 10,000 pigeons making a mess inside, grabbed my long handled fishing net and caught some. I'm not sure where to get chukar or quail, but I know pen raised chukar did a number on my dog, just sitting there, letting him catch them. Never again... it was actually after that that I got the shoe box and went to pigeons... live and learn, I guess...

[ST8 UPPOINTERS]

Ah74 awesome avatar. I'm just up in Washington, u trial??

[AG74]

Ah74 awesome avatar. I'm just up in Washington, u trial??

Thanks! I do not, actually. Where are you, Tri-cities? What clubs or groups do you belong to??

Al

[goldenpatch29]

Goldenpatch
How old is your pup? Some of this can just be age and bird exposure.
If you have spooky wild birds to work the pup on you are lucky, there is nothing better for a pup to learn on.

sorry i havent been on here in quite a bit, but my dog is has just turned 7 months old...the urge for him to try and catch them is very strong...more than he can bare sometimes.....

[Sharon]

Be happy you have a dog with that kind of desire. With time and training he should become totally reliable around birds
7 months is very young to be come staunch. My avatar is a 10 month old pup.

[Hookadooka BirdDogs]

A launcher gives you more control of the situration. If he moves after making scent, you pop the bird.

Without a launcher you are going to need very spooky wild birds, that will not take much pressure. It will just take more time.

Thats the problem!!!!.....I have very spooky wild birds, and he points them far enough away not to spook them, but then wants to creep up on them as close as he can, and then bumps them every time.

Because of the thick briars and cover it is very hard to get to him fast and almost impossible to put a check cord on him, for risk of getting tangled up.

i think that this may be something that he will have to learn from experience.

I would do as DonF suggests (and others) but do not do the training in heavy brush and cover but do the training in mowed rows of treeless cover if possible until the dog learns to work 1st scent properly then move to the thick stuff.