spaying and neutering

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:08 am

Most vets recommend spaying and neutering at six months. What are the perceived problems with this. Cj

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:12 am

Perceived?

I believe males that are neutered early never develop male features and the muscle mass. The early snipped males tend to have more bitchy build.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:23 am

Perceived, because I find as much information for as against.
Sorry, if that upsets somebody. CJ

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:31 am

Then make your own decision. There are no less than 50 threads that address the topic if you do a search.

VizslaGirl · Post by **VizslaGirl** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:37 am

This is one of those subjects that you're better off doing your own research and coming to your own conclusion - everyone has a different opinion and feels very strongly about it! Read up (from actual medical studies and published articles, not just hearsay on the internet) and do what you think is best for your dog.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:44 am

I've read studies that show dogs that were fixed at 6 months grew taller and had more brittle bones than dogs that were fixed after fully developing. They also are more prone to contract certain cancers and thyroid problems. Same research also touched on some behavior issues. Fixed females became more aggressive...I can't remember what they said about the males...check this study out (below.) It might help you make your decision. My personal view, fwiw, is that there are minimal health or behavior benefits and much larger risks for neutering males. Females is a bit more complex. I haven't really decided what I'd do with a female besides waiting until she's fully developed if I spay her. Good luck with your decision,

Tim

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTerm ... InDogs.pdf

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:10 am

I realize that some people just don't want to deal with heat cycles, and I realize that for some people this is an emotionally charged issue. I have never quite figured out, however, why it is such a difficlut concept that females in heat should just be kept seperated.

ScoutB · Post by **ScoutB** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:53 pm

My English Setter will be 6 months old tomorrow. I had a discussion with the vet last week about nuetering him. He told me not to fix him if he is going to hunt.

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:04 pm

He told me not to fix him if he is going to hunt.

That surely has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If a dog is neutered or not doesnt make one bit of difference in the hunting ability of a dog. Over the years I've hunted over many many dogs, most intact, some not. The breeding, the exposure, the training, the conditioning and multitudes of other factors are what makes a good hunting dog.... not if he is intact or not.

I'm not one for early spay or neuter as I think everyone should develop the dog and see what the finished product is and if passing his genetic material on is for the betterment of the breed. Thats when the decision to neuter or not should be made, of course barring any other health concerns.

Sometimes I just scratch my head and wonder where some of these vets studied.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:23 pm

I have nothing against spaying and neutering dogs, I just prefer that the dog have a chance to mature prior to being fixed.

Bwanar · Post by **Bwanar** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:46 pm

Not sure if it effects all breeds the same way, but I have found it tended to put weight on Labs. Both sexes, even when done after maturity.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:30 pm

original mngsp wrote:
He told me not to fix him if he is going to hunt.
That surely has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If a dog is neutered or not doesnt make one bit of difference in the hunting ability of a dog. Over the years I've hunted over many many dogs, most intact, some not. The breeding, the exposure, the training, the conditioning and multitudes of other factors are what makes a good hunting dog.... not if he is intact or not.

I'm not one for early spay or neuter as I think everyone should develop the dog and see what the finished product is and if passing his genetic material on is for the betterment of the breed. Thats when the decision to neuter or not should be made, of course barring any other health concerns.

Sometimes I just scratch my head and wonder where some of these vets studied.

I think that was a very astute comment.If you are going to hunt the dog do not have it nuetered due to the high rate of injury to any dog that is going to be that active. Tendon blowouts are almost common on males that are nuetered and also with some females. Coats are terrible on longer haired dogs that will pick up every burr in the country due to the fuzzy consistancy when done before maturity. Just a hundered reasons not to neuter a dog that hunts before maturity and not a one of them has to do with hunting ability but it is great advice.

Ezzy

ScoutB · Post by **ScoutB** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:20 am

original mngsp wrote:
He told me not to fix him if he is going to hunt.
That surely has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If a dog is neutered or not doesnt make one bit of difference in the hunting ability of a dog. Over the years I've hunted over many many dogs, most intact, some not. The breeding, the exposure, the training, the conditioning and multitudes of other factors are what makes a good hunting dog.... not if he is intact or not.

I'm not one for early spay or neuter as I think everyone should develop the dog and see what the finished product is and if passing his genetic material on is for the betterment of the breed. Thats when the decision to neuter or not should be made, of course barring any other health concerns.

Sometimes I just scratch my head and wonder where some of these vets studied.

If this is the dumbest thing you've ever heard you hang around some smart people. You must also be a vet and able to give your advise based on medical experience. In your post you also say you wouldn't fix a 6 month old bird dog. That was the same advise that idiot vet gave me. In your experience why are most bird dogs you have hunted over still intact? Is it because most plan on breeding their dogs? I don't know and I am just passing on advice given to me.

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:23 am

If this is the dumbest thing you've ever heard you hang around some smart people. You must also be a vet and able to give your advise based on medical experience. In your post you also say you wouldn't fix a 6 month old bird dog. That was the same advise that idiot vet gave me. In your experience why are most bird dogs you have hunted over still intact? Is it because most plan on breeding their dogs? I don't know and I am just passing on advice given to me.

I have read through this a couple of times and I think you are saying that the dog should be neutered at six months, but I'm not sure. There was a thread on here a couple of weeks ago about stud contracts. Several guys made the arguement that 'if something is written down, it can't be misunderstood'. I think that the paragraph above is proof that they were wrong.

ScoutB · Post by **ScoutB** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:29 am

rinker wrote:
If this is the dumbest thing you've ever heard you hang around some smart people. You must also be a vet and able to give your advise based on medical experience. In your post you also say you wouldn't fix a 6 month old bird dog. That was the same advise that idiot vet gave me. In your experience why are most bird dogs you have hunted over still intact? Is it because most plan on breeding their dogs? I don't know and I am just passing on advice given to me.
I have read through this a couple of times and I think you are saying that the dog should be neutered at six months, but I'm not sure. There was a thread on here a couple of weeks ago about stud contracts. Several guys made the arguement that 'if something is written down, it can't be misunderstood'. I think that the paragraph above is proof that they were wrong.

Just the opposite. My vet told me not to fix my 6 month old since he is going to hunt. Right now I am taking this advise. I didn't ask him to go farther into the details of why. Original Mngsp claimed it was a stupid comment by the vet and neutering would have no effect. It's confusing to me as well because he then went on to say he wouldn't fix a puppy either.

Then I posed the question of why you see more bird dogs intact than fixed if there was no downside to fixing them, other than for breeding purposes. Is it only for breeding purposes? I would also like to know more about how Original MNGSP arrived at his conclusion. He may be a vet and have research to prove no effect due to neutering. He may believe it's true because his Grandpa told him that once, 100 years ago. I don't know if he or the vet is right. What I do know is that I see more bird dogs intact, which seems to also be Original Mngsp's observation and would be in following with my vet's "dumbest" advice.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:28 pm

Original Mngsp made that statement from the view point of he thought the vet was refering to hunting abilities and not the overall health of the dog I believe. And from that view point he was right as it has no effect on hunting ability. He just failed to think about all of the other aspects of neutering and how they effect the dogs ability to function.

Ezzy

ScoutB · Post by **ScoutB** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:53 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Original Mngsp made that statement from the view point of he thought the vet was refering to hunting abilities and not the overall health of the dog I believe. And from that view point he was right as it has no effect on hunting ability. He just failed to think about all of the other aspects of neutering and how they effect the dogs ability to function.
Ezzy

I think the aspects of neutering and how they effect the dog's ability to function is the information we are seeking. Do you have information you could share on this topic? In my (incompotent) opinion I would never think neutering would effect a dog's nose, ability to train or genetic makeup. I could see how it may effect his drive. I don't know it to be fact or fiction though. My fealing is anything that might impair a dog's ability to function is impairing his ability to hunt.

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:10 pm

original mngsp wrote:
He told me not to fix him if he is going to hunt.
That surely has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If a dog is neutered or not doesnt make one bit of difference in the hunting ability of a dog. Over the years I've hunted over many many dogs, most intact, some not. The breeding, the exposure, the training, the conditioning and multitudes of other factors are what makes a good hunting dog.... not if he is intact or not.

I'm not one for early spay or neuter as I think everyone should develop the dog and see what the finished product is and if passing his genetic material on is for the betterment of the breed. Thats when the decision to neuter or not should be made, of course barring any other health concerns.

Sometimes I just scratch my head and wonder where some of these vets studied.

And yet, I have seen several dogs that were "fixed" before they developed or exposed to birds that had no sense of what they were there to do.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:15 pm

Long legs, inferior muscling, inferior anglelation which ofter leads to torn ligamnet and tendons, plus bad coats and increased risk of some cancers. None directly related to hunting ability but more about the ability to hunt. Does that make sense?

Ezzy

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:46 pm

cjhills wrote:Most vets recommend spaying and neutering at six months. What are the perceived problems with this. Cj

The problem that I perceive is that a dog spayed or neutered before attaining their full growth might not mature correctly. That said, every dog I own is spayed or neutered. They can outhunt most dogs I put them on the ground with (granted, I don't field trial - but we do hunt a lot). I haven't had issues with legs/tendons/etc. on any of our 10 dogs. Or the ones we had prior to these dog (which were also spayed and neutered).

As for why most hunting folks keep their dogs intact, I think for the most part, in the areas I hunt, many people do want to keep the dog intact for breeding - now granted, probably less than 10% of them should ever be bred...if that. Most people I hunt with are men, most men that I have asked have a real issue with castrating a dog. Old wives tales say the dog will get fat (wow... how on earth would someone deal with a dog gaining weight - there is certainly no method known to mankind to combat that :roll: ) some even older wives tales say the dog "won't hunt as good or have as much drive" - I'm betting that a neutered dog will have a lot more drive to hunt quail with a female in heat than will an intact male. I don't have to be picky about who I hunt with or when, my dogs can go every time, whether the guys I hunt with have dogs in heat or not. I don't loose any hunting days to heats or to pregnancies. If I had a top notch, fantastic, well proven dog that I couldn't find the line somewhere else, I might consider keeping the animal intact. But I can find the breeding I want - and I can likely buy a better dog than I could breed - so I spay and neuter. I spay for health reasons and I neuter because I don't want to chance having a marking, pee-sniffing, girl-chasing, testosterone driven dog. But I read a lot, I'm around dogs a lot, and I have researched the pros and cons of pediatric spay and neuter. I wouldn't spay or neuter my own dog prior to maturity. I fully support shelters and rescues who do so however.

ScoutB · Post by **ScoutB** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:15 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Long legs, inferior muscling, inferior anglelation which ofter leads to torn ligamnet and tendons, plus bad coats and increased risk of some cancers. None directly related to hunting ability but more about the ability to hunt. Does that make sense?

Ezzy

Yes. Thank you. A weak dog that can't get through cover or frequently can't run due to torn ligaments or tendons isn't any good in the field. They are good for laying on your couch all day, walking around the neighborhood and occasionaly fetching a ball in the back yard. This would explain why you fix a house pet and not a hunting dog. Or at least not fix hunting dogs until they physically mature. Maybe my vet isn't so dumb for his suggestion. Again, thanks for pointing out some of the potential problems of neutering a pup around 6 months old.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:48 pm

ScoutB wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Long legs, inferior muscling, inferior anglelation which ofter leads to torn ligamnet and tendons, plus bad coats and increased risk of some cancers. None directly related to hunting ability but more about the ability to hunt. Does that make sense?

Ezzy
Yes. Thank you. A weak dog that can't get through cover or frequently can't run due to torn ligaments or tendons isn't any good in the field. They are good for laying on your couch all day, walking around the neighborhood and occasionaly fetching a ball in the back yard. This would explain why you fix a house pet and not a hunting dog. Or at least not fix hunting dogs until they physically mature. Maybe my vet isn't so dumb for his suggestion. Again, thanks for pointing out some of the potential problems of neutering a pup around 6 months old.

Thanks. That was the reason for my post. We have generally spayed and neutered around six months and have not seen any problems. We are considering waiting til later. I just wanted to know what these problems were. We certainly don't see less hunting ability. I find about the same amount of info for as against. Our males do about everthing but make puppies including ties. thanks CJ

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