What would you do?

[terrym]

My dog ( 2 yr old Britt ) isn't steady to wing reliably. He will hold as long as it takes to close in for a flush but will break when the bird flushes quite often. Here is my dillema, with the hunting season opening here next week would I be doing damage by shooting birds even if he breaks? My goal is to have him steady to wing but most times I will be hunting alone with him and it is very difficult to restrain him and still actually hunt over him. Should I just hunt him and let him figure it out? I wonder if it won't reinforce a habit I need to break him of? Should I resign myself to not actually shooting a bird this fall until he learns to stand on a flush? HE is becoming a great bird finder, we passed his FDJ this spring and last weekend he took a 3rd place in a gundog stake in our first field trial. He is mostly field trial breeding and has alot of speed and range but right now I can't count on him to hold on the flush.

[birddogger]

When I first started reading this, I was going to ask why you cared if he was not steady to wing. But as I read further, I see that you are wanting to trial him. I would say that the time to work on breaking him would be in the off season. The more/longer you hunt him, allowing him to break at the flush, the more of a problem you are going to have getting him broke. You have probably heard the old saying,"anything you allow your dog to do, you are training him to do" .

Charlie

[cjhills]

Don't shoot the birds if he breaks. Need a solid whoa and nerves of steel. perfect training situation, if he is steady on wild birds in a hunting situation, planted birds are a piece of cake. Try to control your adrenalin the dog takes his cue from you. It is hard to watch the dog and shoot the bird. CJ

[terrym]

These answers are exactly what I was expecting to hear. I guess this season will be mostly training finding birds and "dry" flushes. As much asd I like to seal the deal while hunting getting him broke is priority #1.

[slistoe]

This is where it is real nice to have a hunting partner who understands the desire to have a broke dog. Run the dog with a CC and you work the dog while he shoots. Trade off if your partner is willing and you trust him to work the dog. A solid season of steadiness training while hunting will do wonders for your and your dogs confidence in trialling.

[gonehuntin']

When I first started reading this, I was going to ask why you cared if he was not steady to wing. But as I read further, I see that you are wanting to trial him. I would say that the time to work on breaking him would be in the off season. The more/longer you hunt him, allowing him to break at the flush, the more of a problem you are going to have getting him broke. You have probably heard the old saying,"anything you allow your dog to do, you are training him to do" .

Charlie

+1. Remember, it's always easier to prevent a problem than to cure a problem. Once the undesired behavior becomes ingrained, becomes habit, then pardner, you have a problem.

[terrym]

Thanks everybody. Another question: I have so far avoided using the e collar when in a bird contact scenario. I'm afraid he will associate the nick with birds. Would it make sense to introduce a nick if he breaks at a flush? He is pretty solid on "whoa" in all situations except a flushing bird. He will stand on point solidly until I walk in and flush the bird, beautiful pointing actually.

[AzDoggin]

Try to control your adrenalin the dog takes his cue from you.

That's pretty good advice right there. It requires a change of mindset if you want to "hunt" a dog that's not finished.

I remember the title of an article that Brittany breeder Martha Greenlee wrote about Mo Lindley: Calm Trainer, Calm Dogs.

Agree with what Charlie said also. At two years old, you don't need to be creating more of what you are trying to break the dog of.

Try leaving your shotgun in the truck every now and then. It gives you a whole new perspective. You see things you never paid attention to before.

Good luck!!

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Thanks everybody. Another question: I have so far avoided using the e collar when in a bird contact scenario. I'm afraid he will associate the nick with birds. Would it make sense to introduce a nick if he breaks at a flush? He is pretty solid on "whoa" in all situations except a flushing bird. He will stand on point solidly until I walk in and flush the bird, beautiful pointing actually.

Many trainers call this "taking the chase away". Only stimulate the dog to a stop when the bird is in the air. Huntsmith has a article on this I think. To stimulate when the bird is on the ground will create a blinker dog.

[AzDoggin]

Thanks everybody. Another question: I have so far avoided using the e collar when in a bird contact scenario. I'm afraid he will associate the nick with birds. Would it make sense to introduce a nick if he breaks at a flush? He is pretty solid on "whoa" in all situations except a flushing bird. He will stand on point solidly until I walk in and flush the bird, beautiful pointing actually.

Lots of folks use the e-collar on stop to flush, but most first teach what they want with the check cord to make sure the dog knows what you are asking. Then overlay the e-collar (low stim) and eventually drop the CC.

Also, you can work on 'stop to flush' away from bird scent first. With a bird bag under your arm, go on a walk with your dog on a CC. When he isn't looking, every now and then, let a pigeon go and stop the dog as he attempts to give chase. You want the sound of wings and the sight of the bird flying to say "whoa" to the dog - you are saying NOTHING. Working on STF away from the pointing situation is a safer way to introduce the concept. You could also do that with launchers - the birds are mighty spooky and always flush before the dog ever gets a chance to scent them. Once you've got the dog standing to flush, you've got a great basis to teach backing as well!! http://4imgs.com/1028/pdf/Equalizer.pdf

EDIT - Az Britt Guy is right - Huntsmith does address "taking out the chase." They have extensive coverage of the concept on their most recent DVD - the "Intermediate" one. Taking out the chase comes right after whoa post training in their sequence. Ronnie Smith works several dogs, just gradually reducing the chase with low stim from the e-collar. For example, at first flush (bird popped from launcher at a good distance), the dog might run 150 yards before he slows down...next time 100 yards, next time 50, and so on. He's always using just enough stim to slow the dog down and eventually the dog starts putting 2 and 2 together...http://www.huntsmith.com/article.php?id=16

The Perfect Start/perfect finish DVD's cover this as well.

Good luck.

[gonehuntin']

If the dog was forced by ecollar, you won't have a problem. If not, you could.

Flush the bird and wait until the dog takes a step, leans, anything. Then command whoa and nick. IF you always give the command followed by the nick, the dog will understand WHY he is being corrected. If it was THOROUGHLY trained in the yard.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Thanks everybody. Another question: I have so far avoided using the e collar when in a bird contact scenario. I'm afraid he will associate the nick with birds. Would it make sense to introduce a nick if he breaks at a flush? He is pretty solid on "whoa" in all situations except a flushing bird. He will stand on point solidly until I walk in and flush the bird, beautiful pointing actually.

Lots of folks use the e-collar on stop to flush, but most first teach what they want with the check cord to make sure the dog knows what you are asking. Then overlay the e-collar (low stim) and eventually drop the CC.

Also, you can work on 'stop to flush' away from bird scent first. With a bird bag under your arm, go on a walk with your dog on a CC. When he isn't looking, every now and then, let a pigeon go and stop the dog as he attempts to give chase. You want the sound of wings and the sight of the bird flying to say "whoa" to the dog - you are saying NOTHING. Working on STF away from the pointing situation is a safer way to introduce the concept. You could also do that with launchers - the birds are mighty spooky and always flush before the dog ever gets a chance to scent them. Once you've got the dog standing to flush, you've got a great basis to teach backing as well!!

EDIT - Az Britt Guy is right - Huntsmith does address "taking out the chase." They have extensive coverage of the concept on their most recent DVD - the "Intermediate" one. Taking out the chase comes right after whoa post training in their sequence. Ronnie Smith works several dogs, just gradually reducing the chase with low stim from the e-collar. For example, at first flush (bird popped from launcher at a good distance), the dog might run 150 yards before he slows down...next time 100 yards, next time 50, and so on. He's always using just enough stim to slow the dog down and eventually the dog starts putting 2 and 2 together...

The Perfect Start/perfect finish DVD's cover this as well.

Good luck.

Glad you gave the expanded (correct) answer.

[bonasa]

[/quote]Many trainers call this "taking the chase away". Only stimulate the dog to a stop when the bird is in the air. Huntsmith has a article on this I think. To stimulate when the bird is on the ground will create a blinker dog.[/quote]

+1 on that. I stimulate when the bird is in the air in sight to slow/stop/deter the chase but never on the ground...that's what wild birds/ launchers are for.

[Trekmoor]

The saying among pointer/setter folk here is, " Never correct a dog in the presence of game." In practice this means do not correct until the bird is on the wing and the dog is beginning to chase it. The chase is being corrected, not the point.

Bill T.