double trouble

[Hoosierdaddy]

We made the mistake of getting littermates.At least from what i have read this was not the wisest choice we could have made.We have a male and a female Brit. I have read tons,after the fact that having littermates can cause all kinds of problems,with that being said the dogs are crated seperatly,the potty training is going well,no accidents in the house for four days now.We are now feeding them apart from one another.

The male is much more independent than our female,she seems much more worried about what the male is doing at all times.She has no fear of him and the chasing and roughhousing gets started by both. When i think the "playing" gets out of control i have hit them with a shot from the spray bottle and that stops that action.The dogs have been around other dogs some, but not daily. Come and Sit are going pretty well at least as well as could be expected from 11 week old pups.

I have the advantage of being semi-retired and have the time to do whatever needs to be done to try to make this work. I guess i am looking for someone in the know that has dealt with this. My wife has be doing alot of reading on the net about "littermate Syndrome",and she is getting real nervous about our situation.

[ezzy333]

You won't have any problem as long as you keep them seperateand work them seperate also. There have been a lot of us that raise pups that have kept 3 or more out of a litter. Just make sure they are two seperate pups and not litermates in their training and sleeping for a while.

Ezzy

[Hoosierdaddy]

Thanks for the reply. I am sure it will ease my wifes mind a tad.

We are Brit lovers and know that you reap what you sow.These are my 3rd and 4th Brits.One and Two were great dogs and we just want to make sure these new arrivals turn out similar.

By the way this is a great board i found it when i got my last dog and have lurked here for years.Some of the best dog folks around!

[Sharon]

You won't have any problem as long as you keep them seperateand work them seperate also. There have been a lot of us that raise pups that have kept 3 or more out of a litter. Just make sure they are two seperate pups and not litermates in their training and sleeping for a while.

Ezzy

X2.... This does make for double duty with training. Soon you won't feel like you are retired at all.

[RoostersMom]

Like Ezzy says - separation is the key. I've dealt with littermate syndrome with several dogs- it is a horrible deal. Your wife is right to be concerned. I now use the one hour rule. The pups do not see one another for more than one hour per day. That is separation. Separation is not crated next to one another or letting them play together for hours on end, or both of them being loose in the house at once. No more than an hour a day total together time. No walks together, no training together... you get the picture. This can end at about a year old, then you're free to let them frolic together all you want, but up until a year of age, it's best to keep them totally separate (or together very little).

[ezzy333]

Like Ezzy says - separation is the key. I've dealt with littermate syndrome with several dogs- it is a horrible deal. Your wife is right to be concerned. I now use the one hour rule. The pups do not see one another for more than one hour per day. That is separation. Separation is not crated next to one another or letting them play together for hours on end, or both of them being loose in the house at once. No more than an hour a day total together time. No walks together, no training together... you get the picture. This can end at about a year old, then you're free to let them frolic together all you want, but up until a year of age, it's best to keep them totally separate (or together very little).

I have never witnessed anything near that severe. If I just work with one at a time and kennel them seperately they have been no difference that any two pups would be. I doubt if they remember they are littermates, but if they do, it makes little difference as long as you treat them like individuals. Much like reaising twins.

Ezzy

[marysburg]

My sister got 2 Springer spaniel pups together, and the most useful thing she did was take them separately to puppy class. Different lesson group for each pup, on different nights. She also took them separately on short car trips to run errands, etc.; leaving one at home, and taking the other pup by itself. Sounds like you are on the right track.

[cjhills]

It's not so much about litter mates as it is about two puppies that are the same age. We always have at least two. We let them play together and run in the field together but we train seperately and crate or kennel separately.
We also don't sell two puppies that are the same age to the same client. Litter mates or not. It is twice the work for sure. Cj

[Hoosierdaddy]

Thanks again for all of the sound advice.One thing i have noticed is that when i take them out in the yard apart from one another,i am their focus instead of each other.
The female is the lover of the two and nothing is better for her than to be in your lap for a belly rub. Our male while he likes affection,perfers just a little and then he wants to nose around every corner and crevice.
It would truly be sad if i had to keep these dogs seperated for all but an hour a day,that would take all of the fun out of it.

I have a trainer down the road and she has offered us the chance to bring the pups down for at least some socialization with other dogs and i am going to take her up on that offer.

Well behaving dogs is what it is all about.

[RoostersMom]

Like Ezzy says - separation is the key. I've dealt with littermate syndrome with several dogs- it is a horrible deal. Your wife is right to be concerned. I now use the one hour rule. The pups do not see one another for more than one hour per day. That is separation. Separation is not crated next to one another or letting them play together for hours on end, or both of them being loose in the house at once. No more than an hour a day total together time. No walks together, no training together... you get the picture. This can end at about a year old, then you're free to let them frolic together all you want, but up until a year of age, it's best to keep them totally separate (or together very little).

I have never witnessed anything near that severe. If I just work with one at a time and kennel them seperately they have been no difference that any two pups would be. I doubt if they remember they are littermates, but if they do, it makes little difference as long as you treat them like individuals. Much like reaising twins.

Ezzy

You're lucky I guess then. It sounds to me like the OP wants to have the dogs loose in the house together just like he would any two other dogs - that just won't work if you want to have individuals. I have witnessed many severe littermate syndrome situations. I have had dogs that have literally tried to kill each other (EP brothers at 11 months old). They were raised together from day one - they got so bad that they were turned over to the shelter. One so stunted behaviorally because the other was the "dominant dog". Beagles raised together that literally howled and cried for hours on end if their "littermate (really not littermates, just raised together)" went to the vet without them. One wouldn't eat without the other. I have a co-worker that bought two American Bulldogs and after seeing some very distressing behaviors of the dogs bonding with one another and not bonding with him and his wife - they totally separated the two. One lived downstairs, the other upstairs. That one ended very well - but they were absolutely committed to developing each dog's personality. The dogs lived in the house together at about 13 months old - and things have worked well for them.

I don't think this is near the issue if they are kennel dogs. If they are family dogs and live inside, then I absolutely think they need to be separated. Fun or not, it's what will be best for the dogs in the long run. You want individuals, not a pair. Individuals don't develop well if one is always dominating the other. Also, bonding with the pups just flat out doesn't happen well when they have each other. They will choose the other dog to socialize with instead of the human most of the time. IMO, it's all about doing what's best for the dog - not what is "convenient or fun" for you. You want the pups to develop to their full potential - obviously the OP's wife has read the literature and now has some concrete examples of why this can be a serious deal. The separation is not a lifetime commitment.

I think it'd be a great idea to send the pups to another trainer or friend for a time frame. The last littermates I raised, I used that strategy. One went to a friend in town to learn about concrete, busses, parks, purse puppies, and all things St. Louis for 2 weeks... then I traded out. I did this twice with different friends, so the pups had time away from each other and I didn't have to keep up with the separation thing so much.

Just because others haven't seen this problem, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Once the dogs have bonded with one another and not you.... well, that's just not a good thing to let happen.

[marysburg]

Excellent information, and great advice.

[ezzy333]

Just because others haven't seen this problem, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Once the dogs have bonded with one another and not you.... well, that's just not a good thing to let happen.

What I said agreed with your concept. That is why I said kennel them separately and do things individually with them. They can have time together in the yard like the OP said he enjoyed. You have picked out extreme cases to prove your point which is natural but those are extreme and unusual. Without a doubt they were together way too much and had some instability long with it. In the past I have had many litter mates in the kennels with several of them being hunted together and in our house together once in a while. As a rule if they are treated as individuals, given time separately, so they have to become self sufficient, you will never know they are litter mates and neither will they after a few months. Just be sure they live separate lives but that does not mean they can't ever be together. You take 2 7 or 8 week old pups from different litters and house and train them together you will have the same problem. How you handle them makes main difference, not their genetic background. That's why it is difficult to do anything with two pups that have always been together, related or not. House and train separately and you should be good to go and they still can have time to play and exercise together. Lucky, don't think so but I do observe and make decisions for the good of the animal before a major problem develops.

Ezzy

[stlgsp]

I have 5 3 years old, all raised in the house, all littermates. They were crated at night seperately starting at 6 weeks and rarely were all five loose in the house at the same time but we did rotate sometimes having two or three out at the same time. In the fenced backyard, we would mix it up, sometimes only one, sometimes more, sometimes all. Most of the time they were run seperately although occasionally we would go for a "fun" run where all seven of our dogs ran together (usually going seven different directions). All training was separate and at their own pace. All had individual trips here & there, lots of individual socialization, lots of new places and experiences, etc. None of them have issues of being attached to each other or leaving each other. They each have individual hunting styles so I mix and match depending on the area we are hunting, might hunt only one, or as many as three. The only issues I have had is reintroductions to the pack after one has been away at the trainer for a few months, but that happens in most packs. I just take it slow, supervise and correct the offender then and there.

Keep your eyes open for problems with each individual and nip them before they go too far and you will be fine.

[Hoosierdaddy]

Well after a few more days the problem i think is our female.She just this morning passed on her food to go harrass her brother who was in his crate.
I decided to try feeding her in her crate,we will see how that goes.She seems okay when we seperate them (car rides,seperate romps out in the back 40) but if he is around she is more focused on him than i think she ought to be.Our male could care less if she is around or not so i guess its better than them both being co-dependent.

Five pups in the house? I would be pulling my hair out in chunks! LOL