Placed pigeons question?

[Francois P vd Walt]

Do you guys think the dogs follow the human scent to the bird after some weeks of training?
OR
Do you think tbe dogs still seek for birds not connecting the human aspect/scent to the found bird?

[DogNewbie]

I think it depends on the dog. I haven't gotten the sense that my pup has figured it out yet.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Some do & some don't,I have had dogs that you could watch follow my tracks right to the birds & I have had others that never catch on to it,they go after it just like hunting birds in a new field.
Here is something else I have observed,the dogs that track you to the bird never seem to be as intense as the dog that hunts his way to the bird.When I have a dog that tracks to the bird I move to wild birds as quick as possible & stop the planted bird routine.Just my observation working my own dogs.

[cjhills]

Absolutely. I have a female that will track whatever the birds are planted with. foot, horseback or four wheeler. It made hunt tests a problem, plus training with planted birds was impossible. CJ

[shags]

I find it helps to not just tromp out and throw down a bird then follow your own track back, but to make a more circuitous route around the training area as you put down birds, stopping here and there but not placing a bird. Seems like the dogs still might track, but this forces them to hunt along the track. If you've been super ambitious, there's so much of your track scent that he'll just give it up and use his nose for birds. Also, once in while go through the whole routine without putting out any birds at all, then bring the dog in. He'll be faked out and you get the opportunity to pull him off thus avoiding him getting sticky in your birdfield. Do this on foot, quad, or horseback.

[rinker]

Some dogs will point launchers, even if they do not have a pigeon in them. When I sense that a dog is tracking and pointing the launchers, I will walk out and put out empty launchers. I do this occasionally just to keep them honest.

When I am using released quail and it is practical to do so, I prefer to fly them out.

[will-kelly]

My girl was having the same problem at about 9 months. I was at a training session and the trainer said most times this is caused by people subconsciously walking their dogs to the bird when they are a puppy rather than allowing the dog to find the bird itself. It gets used to the pattern quickly and begins to associate the human scent with the bird. The trainer's tip was to plant them in a zig zag or figure 8 pattern around the field by first walking straight to the end of the field and planting the furthest bird first. Then plant them coming back in a zig zag. Each time you cross that center line the chances of going straight to the bird are decreased. Then take the dog out to the furthest end of the field and work your way back. By the time the dog gets to the middle of the field her nose is so full of the first few birds that she stops following the human scent and begins to work the wind.

Not sure now at 18 months if the method of planting or her maturity are the cause of her improvement but she no longer follows my bird planting trail. She works the full field now.

[Winchey]

I have one that does, one that doesn't. I don't really care, they learn to find wild birds finding wild birds, the pigeon stuff is just steadiness, I don't care how they were found.

[Sharon]

I find it helps to not just tromp out and throw down a bird then follow your own track back, but to make a more circuitous route around the training area as you put down birds, stopping here and there but not placing a bird. Seems like the dogs still might track, but this forces them to hunt along the track. If you've been super ambitious, there's so much of your track scent that he'll just give it up and use his nose for birds. Also, once in while go through the whole routine without putting out any birds at all, then bring the dog in. He'll be faked out and you get the opportunity to pull him off thus avoiding him getting sticky in your birdfield. Do this on foot, quad, or horseback.

Excellent answer.

[4dabirds]

I have one that does, one that doesn't. I don't really care, they learn to find wild birds finding wild birds, the pigeon stuff is just steadiness, I don't care how they were found.

I agree with this . Also you can carry the birds out to the field and plant them as the dog is hunting then the dog finds them on the way back. Its a good way to break up the training pattern and keep the dog on its toes.

[DonF]

Some do, some don't. I don't care if they do, I want to see them handle ir right when they get there. Squirt and Bodie have never caught on to it. Duke caught on about the second day, smart little turd! When I plant birds, I try to get them into cove the dog's might find them in. Happy timing they learn to hunt. Buy the time they get pointing work, they happy timed for quite a while. They know where to look.

[ibbowhunting]

mine does when i plant birds walking, so i let her free run in the field we are going to work in, i walk all over the field with her just to make tracks, then i kennel her and plant the birds seems to help some, i even tryed wear rubber boots to control my scent unsure yet if that helps or not

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

I have worn boots,gloves,scent lock,does'nt work.This is only my opinion but I think the tracking dogs are smarter then the others & can get bored with planted birds very easily if over done.They will loose intensity,try to circle,start flagging,turn their head to look at you & none of these are good.

[BirdDawgin]

Something else to try, run your pup in the field and set birds out while pup is well to the front.
Make another pass through to find them. Consistently be
Inconsistent. Do something a little differently as often as you can, so pup doesn't see the pattern. Flying your quail out works well too. I plant my first round from a four wheeler, if the field is trampled up with human,dog,& atv scent, the dogs are forced to concentrate on bird scent and quickly ignore all other novel odors. But I have the luxury/curse of working several dogs per day.

[whoadog]

Yep, both questions.

[Vision]

Absolutely. I have a female that will track whatever the birds are planted with. foot, horseback or four wheeler. It made hunt tests a problem, plus training with planted birds was impossible. CJ

There are many field champions, and even a few national field champions that become such by tracking the bird planters.

[mask]

I use carded birds and let them fly and air wash a little till they land. This way there are no man tracks for the pup to follow. I use a launcher mainly for backing drills.

[Francois P vd Walt]

I am new to the whole pigeon place thing this is why I was asking. The Jon & Cindy dvd Perfect start&finish has lots of pigeons in it, all placed. Evan Graham use less pigeons in his dvd Smart Fetch also a must dvd if you train dogs!

I am sure if used to steady the dog on repetition for flush, wing etc. imo it would not matter if they follow human scent or not, as long as they find the bird & hold the point. By moving over to wild birds to get them steady there will take two or three covey's were in the past one had to get the dog to 50 birds before they start to steady.(some dogs 100+)

This forum format helps one to formulate your own opinion on feedback given by co dog trainers/handlers and some of these guys have years of experience.

Thanks again GDF!

[Francois P vd Walt]

Absolutely. I have a female that will track whatever the birds are planted with. foot, horseback or four wheeler. It made hunt tests a problem, plus training with planted birds was impossible. CJ

There are many field champions, and even a few national field champions that become such by tracking the bird planters.

We fortunate in South Africa no birds are placed all wild birds all dogs should have equal chances just time of day will makebit easier or harder to find.

[shags]

There are many field champions, and even a few national field champions that become such by tracking the bird planters.

Many? Really? I guess they all lucked out and drew the first one or two braces of the day, or on a particular course. Because it seems that after that multiple handlers, judges, scouts, marshals, and gallery riders had ridden over the courses, it would be pretty difficult for a dog to track one horse unless he had his nose to the ground. And that kind way of going won't earn placements.

Good bird planters will throw down birds in the places where good dogs ought to go, so in some braces it may appear that a dog is following the planter, but more than likely the dog is putting himself where he ought to be anyway.

[Vision]

Absolutely. I have a female that will track whatever the birds are planted with. foot, horseback or four wheeler. It made hunt tests a problem, plus training with planted birds was impossible. CJ

There are many field champions, and even a few national field champions that become such by tracking the bird planters.

We fortunate in South Africa no birds are placed all wild birds all dogs should have equal chances just time of day will makebit easier or harder to find.

I envy you for having all wild bird trials.

[Vision]

There are many field champions, and even a few national field champions that become such by tracking the bird planters.

Many? Really? I guess they all lucked out and drew the first one or two braces of the day, or on a particular course. Because it seems that after that multiple handlers, judges, scouts, marshals, and gallery riders had ridden over the courses, it would be pretty difficult for a dog to track one horse unless he had his nose to the ground. And that kind way of going won't earn placements.

Good bird planters will throw down birds in the places where good dogs ought to go, so in some braces it may appear that a dog is following the planter, but more than likely the dog is putting himself where he ought to be anyway.

Do bird planters plant in the same general areas in field trials? Of course they do so it is easy for a dog to follow horse tracks to those areas you speak of.

[shags]

The point is that if the dog winds up there, so does his handler, judges, and everyone else involved with his brace. Any subsequent dogs on that course will have all that other scent to deal with, so IMO it's a stretch to say that those dogs are only following the bird guy. I think I get what you mean about dogs going to where the planters put down birds in the same general area. However, it's my experience that dogs remember where they have found birds. Have you had a dog on a particular grounds, having been there only once years before, and have him hit the exact spots where he found birds the first time? I believe that's what we are seeing when it appears the dog is tracking the planter.

Now, I *have* seen handlers watch where planters like to put birds, usually in odd little places, and then take their dog along that track Usually the judges see it, too, though.

I'll concede that it's possible that a dog might be able to track, but 'many' national champions winning this way? Not so much.

Have a good one

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

I definately don't see that where we trial. Dogs often go to objectives that look promising and find nothing. If they hit enough of this objectives they get rewarded with a find. Dogs tracking human scent look completely different than when they scent hunt for birds. I've seen it in grainy and can instantly see what's happening but it would be useless for a dog
To try this in a trial out here.'

[DonF]

Mostly I've seen handler's watching where the birds are planted in NSTRA but not that much. In AKC and AF I don't think it would matter if the handler saw or not. The birds are planted off horse back and the handler's take a set route. The dogs normally have to go wire to find the birds.

As far as wild birds for training, they have their place for sure but I wouldn't try to train completely on them. Problem is they don't co-operate! You can take a planted bird and walk the dog into it if needed. and pigeons never run out and seldom do my Bob White's. I hate chukars and pheasant's as training birds. Some will hold while you work the dog, other's run out. Like the wild bird, little co-operation!

[Francois P vd Walt]

Now that I read this I think in a trial were they place the birds it is more of a challenge there are so many more scents to deal with! In a wild enviroment there will be less smells around no fumes from fuel no human scent.....

Maybe this way by crossing in a figure 8 walking with all handlers training through the training ground before placing birds could be a very good training session, the dog will have to pay attention in finding the bird! Dealing with all the smells from other dogs, handlers etc.

This has just given me a new plan in training! Thanks everybody! You guys are tne best!