I have a 16 month old English Pointer. He is bird crazy but he will not hold on point. I feel that I have not applied alot of pressure but as I have been told he has alot of charactristics of that such as, He will get in the scent cone and move around the bird without holding point. He doesn't avoid it by what I would think is blinking but I'm far from a professional. If it is a planted bird when he hits the scent cone I will whoah him, esablish him on point and he holds while I flush the bird. Everything after that is great and if he holds he gets rewarded. If he doesn't it flys.
Thats where I'm at and would appreciate any input and suggestions. Thanks! p.s. I am an amateur trying to figure things out....
English pointer not holding point.
Re: English pointer not holding point.
Is he chasing birds? And if so are you putting any pressure on him for doing so? I wouldn't whoa prior to him establishing point. Since he isn't pointing, I'd just launch the birds once he's in the scent cone and whoa him if he chases. Once he starts to point, the second he moves, pop the bird, hit the ecollar and whoa him. He'll soon understand that his movement causes birds to flush which in turn causes stim. That's how I would do it.
Re: English pointer not holding point.
I would not shock this dog around birds. If you could run him on wild birds, no matter how he handles them, then start over from step one, that would be a help to you and the dog. If you are new to training and are using someones training guide stick to it to the letter, no shortcuts. Oh yeah, do not shock this dog around birds.
Re: English pointer not holding point.
Quit talkig to him around birds! This should be between the dog and the bird, by opening your mouth are you are going to do is create problems. I am not a real big fan of launchers but IMO you need to have control of the bird in this situation. By circling the bird I get the impression that the dog does not want to take it out but rather he is trying to see the bird, this is not good. Set him up on some launchers and don't give him the opportunity to circle, pop the bird if he moves a muscle, you may end up creating a dog that is a litte to cautious around his game but that is better than circling. Not knowing the level of training he has had or your level of experience I would say that this is the safest route to fix the issue that you described. Some dogs may never get away from wanting to see the bird.
Edit- After re-reading your post there is a possibility that this may be the begining of blinking if that is the case then I would follow others advice and start over from square 1 and put the collar up,keep my mouth shut and go find some wild birds to run on.
Edit- After re-reading your post there is a possibility that this may be the begining of blinking if that is the case then I would follow others advice and start over from square 1 and put the collar up,keep my mouth shut and go find some wild birds to run on.
Re: English pointer not holding point.
He does chase and I do not say anything when he does.. Thanks! I appreciate your response and will give it a try!
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RayGubernat
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Re: English pointer not holding point.
I would work it this way:
Put bird in launcher. I prefer homiong pigeons for this stuff, becasue a dog cannot catch a bird that does not land on the ground...and pigeons do not land on the ground.
Have 20 ft checkcord on dog attached to flat collar.
Bring dog in perpendicular to and downwind of the scent cone. In other words, if the wind is blowing east to west, bring dog in on the west side of the bird from either the north or the south.
Watch the dog's body langauge like a hawk. The next step is ALL about timing, so get it right.
The instant that the dog lets you know it has scented the bird(head turn, heistation, turning into the scent,etc)...launch the bird. SAY NOTHING!! If the dog stands there...great. i will get to what to do in a bit....
If the dog takes steps or chases, do a gentle pop on the checkcord, but no more. if it is going to chase...let it chase.
If the dog stands there, move up the checkcord while holding it loosely. Stroke the dog up GENTLY with your hands. stroke from the leftr flank toward the head and then bak again do the same from the right rear. stroke the tail up, starting on the backs of the legs all the way to the tip of the tail.
If the dog has taken steps or chased, go get the dog(SAY NOTHING!!!), physically pick it up off the ground and walk it back toward where it "should have" stood. You do not have to lug the dog all the way back to the exact spot, but you do need to get the dog off its feet and move it back some. Then GENTLY place the dog down, front feet first and with its butt end in the air and with your hand under the dog's butt, GENTLY set it down on its back feet and stroke the tail all the way up.
I am a big believer in keeping the pointing stuff between the bird and the dog as much as possible. Your voice is a distraction from this, so keep from giving orders. A very low, sweetly voiced word of praise, like a "gooooooood" while you are stroking can be helpful for some dogs but keep it low and soft.
DO NOT use an e-collar around the dog's neck when it is around birds. ESPECIALLY when the dog is learning what it is being expected to do. The dog associates shocks and pinches around the neck with obedience commands and cues. You do not want to confuse the dog arund birds or in any way interfere.
Later on, when the dog knows full well what to do, a very mild nick from a collar around the dog's waist should be all that is necessary if it takes steps or roads in on a bird. LATER ON when the dog knows what it is supposed to do.
You can also do some "stop to flush " work. If the dog is not very reliable on its points, doing "stop to flush" drills might be the best way to get the dog there. For this drill, strong flying pigeons are a MUST.
As the dog is running and hunting, you pop a launcher out in front of the dog so it can see the bird fly. The dog will probably chase. When it does, you say nothing, go get the dog and carry it back a few steps and then set it up and style it up as I described previously.
The other thing you should be doing are heel/whoa drills in the yard. This is where you have the dog at heel on a checkcord/wonder lead/prong or pinch collar. Start off, walk about 25 ft and then stop...abruptly. If the dog continues on, the checkcord will tighten around the dog's neck and "encourage it" to stop.
There is more...but this should get you on the right path. SAY as little as possible to the dog when it is around birds. Let the bird teach the dog. Do not distract the dog's attention from the scent and sight of the bird.
RayG
PS... There are times when it absolutely makes sense to send a dog to a pro. Breaking a dog to wing and shot is absolutely one of those times for the novice.
Put bird in launcher. I prefer homiong pigeons for this stuff, becasue a dog cannot catch a bird that does not land on the ground...and pigeons do not land on the ground.
Have 20 ft checkcord on dog attached to flat collar.
Bring dog in perpendicular to and downwind of the scent cone. In other words, if the wind is blowing east to west, bring dog in on the west side of the bird from either the north or the south.
Watch the dog's body langauge like a hawk. The next step is ALL about timing, so get it right.
The instant that the dog lets you know it has scented the bird(head turn, heistation, turning into the scent,etc)...launch the bird. SAY NOTHING!! If the dog stands there...great. i will get to what to do in a bit....
If the dog takes steps or chases, do a gentle pop on the checkcord, but no more. if it is going to chase...let it chase.
If the dog stands there, move up the checkcord while holding it loosely. Stroke the dog up GENTLY with your hands. stroke from the leftr flank toward the head and then bak again do the same from the right rear. stroke the tail up, starting on the backs of the legs all the way to the tip of the tail.
If the dog has taken steps or chased, go get the dog(SAY NOTHING!!!), physically pick it up off the ground and walk it back toward where it "should have" stood. You do not have to lug the dog all the way back to the exact spot, but you do need to get the dog off its feet and move it back some. Then GENTLY place the dog down, front feet first and with its butt end in the air and with your hand under the dog's butt, GENTLY set it down on its back feet and stroke the tail all the way up.
I am a big believer in keeping the pointing stuff between the bird and the dog as much as possible. Your voice is a distraction from this, so keep from giving orders. A very low, sweetly voiced word of praise, like a "gooooooood" while you are stroking can be helpful for some dogs but keep it low and soft.
DO NOT use an e-collar around the dog's neck when it is around birds. ESPECIALLY when the dog is learning what it is being expected to do. The dog associates shocks and pinches around the neck with obedience commands and cues. You do not want to confuse the dog arund birds or in any way interfere.
Later on, when the dog knows full well what to do, a very mild nick from a collar around the dog's waist should be all that is necessary if it takes steps or roads in on a bird. LATER ON when the dog knows what it is supposed to do.
You can also do some "stop to flush " work. If the dog is not very reliable on its points, doing "stop to flush" drills might be the best way to get the dog there. For this drill, strong flying pigeons are a MUST.
As the dog is running and hunting, you pop a launcher out in front of the dog so it can see the bird fly. The dog will probably chase. When it does, you say nothing, go get the dog and carry it back a few steps and then set it up and style it up as I described previously.
The other thing you should be doing are heel/whoa drills in the yard. This is where you have the dog at heel on a checkcord/wonder lead/prong or pinch collar. Start off, walk about 25 ft and then stop...abruptly. If the dog continues on, the checkcord will tighten around the dog's neck and "encourage it" to stop.
There is more...but this should get you on the right path. SAY as little as possible to the dog when it is around birds. Let the bird teach the dog. Do not distract the dog's attention from the scent and sight of the bird.
RayG
PS... There are times when it absolutely makes sense to send a dog to a pro. Breaking a dog to wing and shot is absolutely one of those times for the novice.
Re: English pointer not holding point.
Thanks for all the advice! I will work on this and keep all advised on the out come.
Re: English pointer not holding point.
kezz2852 wrote:He does chase and I do not say anything when he does.. Thanks! I appreciate your response and will give it a try!
In light of this, I personally would do stop to flush drills before I put him in a launcher set up. It would break the process down a little bit more and the dog would already know that he is expected to stand when the bird is launched in the air, I usually take the chase away first.