Clicker Training

[gspmike82]

Getting a GSP puppy in a few weeks. Thinking about Ckicker Training this one. Looking for some advice. Goods and not so good about clicker training.

Thanks

[jwnissen]

I did some puppy training through petco and we did some clicker training. It worked at first then it was just about the treats. Good luck.

[Sharon]

I took a course in clicker training just for fun. I think it it is great for in house obedience training, teaching to heel, teaching tricks by progressive approximation . It has no use for field work.

Suggestion: Google " Perfect Start;Perfect Finish" training prog. and "Puppy Development 1/2 " Huntsmith

[Trekmoor]

I have used a clicker to improve the retrieve deliveries of a few dogs. The clicker works but what you click for is what you get. I clicked at the wrong instant in time with one dog and he began to bite down on dummies very hard. With clicker training your timing is everything.

Bill T.

[Chukar12]

Clicker training is a low risk training activity for young dogs and or motivated trainers who want to work with their dogs all the time. Operant conditioning can allow dogs to learn solutions to problems and receive rewards for behaviors that make things easier in the field later. I will cite a few examples of things that I like to do before I do any formal breaking or field training.

I use the initial clicker training to get the dog used to calmly paying attention to me by standing still at 6 weeks of age...no jumping etc...the minute that a pup stands still and makes eye contact with me I click and treat it, maybe only 3 or 4 times a session...but by 8 weeks most pups with their short attention spans are focused on me.

I use a place board to get a puppy to stand in one spot. The behavior is progressive, the initial reward is for touching the board, then it takes a foot to get a treat, then maybe two, then all four and then they must stand there while I walk off and return back to click and treat. Once they are good at that i may walk off twenty feet and kneel, when pup comes to me I click and treat. Note that i still have not used a spoken command and the pups are still babies...2, 3 or 4 months old. they key off body language so that I don't confuse them with words I will use later as commands. Now a very young puppy will stand still, let me walk away to the front and return to it and come to all based on body language and situation alone. The only pressure is no treat, they are learning to learn by figuring out what gets them what they want.

I also use a target stick...a wiffle ball on the end of an arrow at my house. Pups learn to touch the stick with their nose. Eventually I will restrain the dog and place the target stick in the ground in front of us...when I turn the pup loose he runs to touch the target...down the road I can whoa a dog and have the target some distance BEHIND him or her, I will release a dog with a whistle blast and it will turn and go away to get to the target. This same whistle signal will later turn a dog out from me in the field.

These are just little games that create learned behaviors and very engaged dogs. As they mature and I go to more traditional training methods and the inevitable correction process they have solutions to their problems and i find them more confident and easier to break. Because they are more confident I also find fewer instances of a flagging dog or one that gets "stuck" at a training point.

I keep session short because my dogs and I share some attention deficit disorder I believe and if I see that either of us isn't having fun...I will switch to an activity i am getting paid for or that is keeping me married.

[4dabirds]

I took a course in clicker training just for fun. I think it it is great for in house obedience training, teaching to heel, teaching tricks by progressive approximation . It has no use for field work.

You should say you have not used it in the field . As chucker has shown it can be used to develop behaviors that will later be used in the field. Once a dog has been conditioned to clicker training the click marks the behavior that is rewardable. The reward can be the bird therefore for instance you could click the dog for pointing and reward by launching a bird. The click can be used for timing. When the behavior is first trained the click needs to come at the exact moment of the act. Once the behavior is established and the dog is performing positively the click can come later. This shaping the behavior can be applied to whoa training to get the dog to stand on whoa for longer periods of time. I trained a dog too not flag using clicker training. The tail being steady became rewardable behavior. When the dogs tail stops moving, click launch a bird.

I did some puppy training through petco and we did some clicker training. It worked at first then it was just about the treats. Good luck.

The reason the dog became about the treats is you did not implement the training properly. First off the treats should never be visible to the dog. Only reach for the treats after the dog has completed the act. Vary the timing of when you give the treats. The reward can come much later and the dog will still connect the act with the reward. Once the dog is responding properly the treats should be diminished until no treat is given. If this is not done the dog will only produce the behavior when the treat is present. Once the dog is responding well with no treat ,occasionally jack pot the dog with some treats. The diminishing treats will make the dog work harder to get the treat and the jackpot keeps them always not sure when the treat may be coming. It is called jackpoting because the dog becomes like a gambler that wins occasionally and will keep going back for more. This is due to an endorphin response the same as in people. You basically are causing the dog to be addicted to producing wanted behaviors . Clicker training is great when properly implemented and teaches a dog to learn how to learn, as well as creating a dog that viewa training in a positive manner. This alows you to have longer training sessions which are only limited to the hunger of the dog. Keep the dog hungry before training, the hungrier the more motivated the dog is to perform.

[Sharon]

[quote="4dabirds"][quote="Sharon"]I took a course in clicker training just for fun. I think it it is great for in house obedience training, teaching to heel, teaching tricks by progressive approximation . It has no use for field work.

You should say you have not used it in the field . As chucker has shown it can be used to develop behaviors that will later be used in the field. Once a dog has been conditioned to clicker training the click marks the behavior that is rewardable. The reward can be the bird therefore for instance you could click the dog for pointing and reward by launching a bird. The click can be used for timing. When the behavior is first trained the click needs to come at the exact moment of the act. Once the behavior is established and the dog is performing positively the click can come later. This shaping the behavior can be applied to whoa training to get the dog to stand on whoa for longer periods of time. I trained a dog too not flag using clicker training. The tail being steady became rewardable behavior. When the dogs tail stops moving, click launch a bird. "

Well there you go. Something to be learned every day, Thanks.

[Double Shot Banks]

You cant click when the dog is 100 yards away,
never tried training this way for a hunting dog, works good with other dogs though

[Chukar12]

The secret to dog training is not to start 100 yards away...the secret to dog trainer training is to find those that are more passionate about dog training than they are about trained dogs

[4dabirds]

One thing I left out is when a dog performs a task always praise the dog. The treat is not praise and the praise although a form of reward is not the great motivator. Hunger is the motivator. But the praise is also endorphin inducing.

[DonF]

I have never tried this clicker training but for some reason, even though it seem's to work, it's simply a way of cueing a dog to a desired command. I used to teach dogs leaving the immediate area to come back and research it by softly whistling bob white at them. I can't understand where the clicker does any more. Couldn't it also be some kind of sound?

I think we sometimes get crazy over the latest and greatest methods that really don't do any more than an old method other in our eye's. Right away the e-collar on the hip come's to mind for whoa training. To those that use it, the nick at the flank indicate's the dog needs to stop and stand still. I use the original Delmar Smith method and it it, whoa means stop and stand still and either a bump under the chin or a nick properly timed on the neck after the command is given, means stop and stand still. Something I have found about that method is it seem's hard to learn to use. I have run into a bunch of people that can't make it work so they give up. Put them on the original method and they're fine. I've never used a buddy stick, not a clue how or why it works but don't think I've ever needed it. To those that do, more power to you.

It has always seemed to me that the easiest method to train a dog is the KISS method. Keep it simple stupid. Over the years I've found that that is the best way for me to go and if anything needs learned by the trainer it's timing and reading the dog.

[4dabirds]

Don simply put the click is notification. While I agree that verbal notification is in theory the same thing, notification with the click is easier for the dog to understand. The click never changes tone ,it never gets longer or shorter as our voices sometimes do. As in whoa , whoooa ,whoooaaaaa and the ever usefull whoaaaaaa you no good #@%%$^^&%$. When a dog is working out in its mind how to navigate cues given, to understand how to get the reward, it eliminates the necessity for the dog to determine the exact moment the behavior occurred. Since the timing is made more accurate and there is no confusion in the dogs mind as to what was intended the dogs response becomes more dependable. When properly done by initially using target training It empowers the dog to control the situation, since the dog is offering the behavior to get the reward. As opposed to commanding the dog and then rewarding for compliance. When the dog realizes that it can control the reward training quickly becomes more desirable to the dog. Training for behaviors such as whoa can start at ten or weeks or earlier since the dog is motivated to exhibit the behavior by its desire for the reward. There is no need to correct the dog at this time when training since the dog is self motivated. As usual with any form of training there will be people who improperly attempt to use the method and when it does not work they will say it is no good. My belief is that without initial target training using the clicker you leave many of its great attributes on the table.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

The secret to dog training is not to start 100 yards away...the secret to dog trainer training is to find those that are more passionate about dog training than they are about trained dogs

Amen! Where do you buy these clickers? I know this has been in Hickox's program for a while. I guess I need to read the book, "don't shoot the dog".

[mountaindogs]

Just a little semantics detail here.. clickers are not cues. They mark correct behaviors. Cues ask for it, and the click marks it if its given. The click is processed in a different part of the brain than our verbal cues and is a bit quicker for the dog to process. So they can more correctly associate the exact moment of behavior with correct (what gets a reward). Other that it is essentially a well timed emotionless "good dog " type of marker.

Also I feel compelled to note as others already did as well... that rewards are more than treats. Retrieves, toys, birds!! Are all rewards to. Just like old school when the training is more advanced the bird and the retrieve are the reward. You no longer need to mark the correct behavior with a click... because the dog is already rewarded. No need to tell it you are about to... you phased out the clicker like you phase out a CC.

AND
I have transfered clicker mark directly to pop gun yo actual gun for steady to shot training. No longer is the the clicker telli.g the dog thats right. The shotgun does. Of course this gives you a dog steady to shot only. And some hiccups with loading noise and cycling thru shells if needed but workable...

[mountaindogs]

The secret to dog training is not to start 100 yards away...the secret to dog trainer training is to find those that are more passionate about dog training than they are about trained dogs

+1

[Trekmoor]

I am a long,long way from being any kind of expert on clicker training but my thought processes on the subject led me to wonder a few years ago just how well a variation of the "click" would work. It is known that with a previously trained dog to the clicker the actual treat can be delayed for quite a while following the click so, with a dog already "primed" in the same way as with a clicker device would it not be possible to give the click at any distance you wanted to , including 100 yards out, by using a "beep" or buzzer device on an e-collar ? Sort of ..... dog obeys the command "beep" ....but it gets the treat
a minute later and links it's mind to the "beep" given earlier. I haven't explained that very well , hope you can understand what I am getting at which is a reward given at considerable distance.

Bill T.

[mountaindogs]

I am a long,long way from being any kind of expert on clicker training but my thought processes on the subject led me to wonder a few years ago just how well a variation of the "click" would work. It is known that with a previously trained dog to the clicker the actual treat can be delayed for quite a while following the click so, with a dog already "primed" in the same way as with a clicker device would it not be possible to give the click at any distance you wanted to , including 100 yards out, by using a "beep" or buzzer device on an e-collar ? Sort of ..... dog obeys the command "beep" ....but it gets the treat
a minute later and links it's mind to the "beep" given earlier. I haven't explained that very well , hope you can understand what I am getting at which is a reward given at considerable distance.

Bill T.

Yes. I know some retriever folks who transfer the click to the "tone" on an ecollar. Then they can mark a dog with exact timing for taking lines over obstacles or staying in the water in a channel etc... this I have not tried but makes perfect sense that it could work. I can mark a dog with a clicker in baseball yard drills from about 30 yrds... but often by that point I convert ti a verbal marker...

[DonF]

Just a little semantics detail here.. clickers are not cues. They mark correct behaviors. Cues ask for it, and the click marks it if its given. The click is processed in a different part of the brain than our verbal cues and is a bit quicker for the dog to process. So they can more correctly associate the exact moment of behavior with correct (what gets a reward). Other that it is essentially a well timed emotionless "good dog " type of marker.

Also I feel compelled to note as others already did as well... that rewards are more than treats. Retrieves, toys, birds!! Are all rewards to. Just like old school when the training is more advanced the bird and the retrieve are the reward. You no longer need to mark the correct behavior with a click... because the dog is already rewarded. No need to tell it you are about to... you phased out the clicker like you phase out a CC.

AND
I have transfered clicker mark directly to pop gun yo actual gun for steady to shot training. No longer is the the clicker telli.g the dog thats right. The shotgun does. Of course this gives you a dog steady to shot only. And some hiccups with loading noise and cycling thru shells if needed but workable...

Question. When do you click? after the function or before? And, how do you get the dog to perform the function to get to the clicker? If you are teaching say sit with the clicker, when do you click? Obviously the click can't mean all things.

[Sharon]

After...immediately.Timing is everything. Then treat. Dog learns that a click means you are happy with that behavior. Treats are faced out - one every 10 times etc,

[AG74]

Question. When do you click? after the function or before? And, how do you get the dog to perform the function to get to the clicker? If you are teaching say sit with the clicker, when do you click? Obviously the click can't mean all things.

Like Sharon said, Immediately. Immediately AFTER the desired behavior is given. So if you want your dog to sit for one second, click as soon as the dog sits. Once the dog learns "sit" then you can lengthen the time to get the behavior you want. Keep increasing the length of time at sit to click and the dog will sit as long as you want, but you have to work up to it.

Once a command or behavior is learned, you can use the clicker to "shape" the behavior. Getting the dog to exhibit the behavior in the first place is the most difficult part. but for "sit" just teach it like you usually would, then when the dog sits, click and treat.

The most important part, I think, is the very first step: teaching the dog to associate the "click" with a treat. Its called 'loading', just click-treat, click-treat, click-treat until your dog associates the two. Then you are ready to begin training new behaviors. And the dog has to be motivated by food, and be hungry.

I don't think clicker training is a new fad, or some recent gimmick. It is Operant Conditioning. Can be used to train any animal (including humans) to exhibit desired behavior.

It took a lot of steps, but I eventually taught my dog to pull a rope to open the fridge door, then grab a bottle of beer, then hold it, then bring it to me on the couch. Once the dog learns that clicker training is fun, there is almost no limit to the things you can teach them.

Of course, it is not optimal for field work, etc, but as one of the earlier posters said, it opens the dog's mind to learning and training.

Google Karen Prior, she explains the process very well in her writings. "Don't Shoot the Dog" is a good book. Not a dog training book, but a book that explains operant conditioning.

[mountaindogs]

On sit click when the butt hits the floor, until thats reliable then when the butt hits the floor and stays there for 1 second, then 5 and then until you give a release word. Once you have a release word you would no longer click the behavior. Its over at the release and learned. I still keep intermittent reward. Say a fun fetch for a good prompt sit every so often...
Unless you want to change it. Say you want sit at heel instead of in front, then you would add back in the clicker for the learning phase and phase out after the dog is proficient until release or transfer to verbal marker... "good!" Or "yes!" Or such. Clickers are just a tool. I think the term "clicker training" is a misnomer really. It could be a beep or a bell or any mechanical (for lack of better word) sound. You can use verbal words as I mentioned but it is a touch slower for the dog. But you dont have to find the dumb clicker every time either... like keys..way too easy to lose...so nice to have a voice option at least. The only time voice is really really tough is when you are shaping a chain of behaviours in a fast paced situation. Like training walking at heel with clicker. Tough with voice even when well timed. ... i find birddog puppies very fast and on the go. Clickers work well for catching a fleeting stop and getting the spazzy but eager puppy to realize what it is that is getting rewarded. Once they "get " what you want then you extend it to less fleeting and more lengthy. I think I am being redundant today.... sorry.

[AG74]

On sit click when the butt hits the floor, until thats reliable then when the butt hits the floor and stays there for 1 second, then 5 and then until you give a release word. Once you have a release word you would no longer click the behavior. Its over at the release and learned. I still keep intermittent reward. Say a fun fetch for a good prompt sit every so often...
Unless you want to change it. Say you want sit at heel instead of in front, then you would add back in the clicker for the learning phase and phase out after the dog is proficient until release or transfer to verbal marker... "good!" Or "yes!" Or such. Clickers are just a tool. I think the term "clicker training" is a misnomer really. It could be a beep or a bell or any mechanical (for lack of better word) sound. You can use verbal words as I mentioned but it is a touch slower for the dog. But you dont have to find the dumb clicker every time either... like keys..way too easy to lose...so nice to have a voice option at least. The only time voice is really really tough is when you are shaping a chain of behaviours in a fast paced situation. Like training walking at heel with clicker. Tough with voice even when well timed. ... i find birddog puppies very fast and on the go. Clickers work well for catching a fleeting stop and getting the spazzy but eager puppy to realize what it is that is getting rewarded. Once they "get " what you want then you extend it to less fleeting and more lengthy. I think I am being redundant today.... sorry.

Exactly. You described "shaping" the sit behavior much better than I did. And yes, good explanation of using any marker, not just a clicker. The clicker is used so much I think because its easy to hold in one hand and you can give it INSTANTLY. Verbal markers are not as responsive. I guess that's the key to operant conditioning: the marker has to be instantaneous. A trainer told me you have less than a second to deliver the marker, or the dog will not know what he is being rewarded for. I think it might be a little longer than that, but the same holds true for negative reinforcement for doing a bad behavior. the marker, in most cases the e-collar stim, must be used instantaneously so the dog knows what exactly he did wrong.

Thanks for your ggood reply and explanation

[Trekmoor]

Obviously the click can't mean all things.

I got a bit mixed up about this when I first heard about clickers. Because of this I did not try clicker training until about 40 years after I first heard about it ! I thought it would confuse the dogs to have too many actions required of it in response to the "click." This was totally wrong thinking on my part. The only thing the click tells the dog is that it is doing the "right" thing at that instant in time. The click is not a command of any kind ,it simply marks the correct action by the dog. Dogs will work hard to hear that click and if it is witheld then very often the dog will "free-shape" which means it will try doing various actions on it's own initiative until the click is given for one of those actions.
I had one dog, a GSP, and I witheld the click for his retrieve delivery ..... he ended up standing on his hind legs with his paws on my chest or shoulders to put the training dummy into my mouth. I did not click for that .... I don't fancy a mouthful of pheasant feathers !

Bill T.

[4dabirds]

Question. When do you click? after the function or before? And, how do you get the dog to perform the function to get to the clicker? If you are teaching say sit with the clicker, when do you click? Obviously the click can't mean all things.

Don as I mentioned earlier Target training is often overlooked. With target training the dog is prompted to touch a target in your hand. I use a soda bottle. When the dog touches the target click and treat. Once the dog is returning back over and over again for the bottle and consistently clicked and treated the bottle is placed on the floor. It takes a few moments for the dog to investigate the bottle and although the dog has been clicked for touching the held bottle the response to the floor bottle will not be immediately apparent to the dog. Eventually without prompting, the dog will investigate the bottle, when he does he is clicked and treated. If the dog only sniffs and does not touch, this is ok, click for it, the behavior will eventually shape into touching. The target is getting the dog to offer a behavior as opposed to being compelled. The dog will return over and over again to the target as long as the reward is more compelling then any immediate distraction. A hungry dog will not be easily distracted. The dog now understands that offering a behavior reaps rewards. The next step is, a second target is introduced. The dog responding to the first target is ignored. If the dog does, say wrong or eh-eh. Invariably the dog will investigate the second bottle on the floor when the dog does click and treat. (This establishes a verbal cue to tell the dog it is doing something that is ok but not the one you want at the moment.( Since the click is positive notification and reward is the result , the word no is the negative notifier and correction must follow. If the dog is exhibiting a behavior and there is no reason to correct, then it is good to be able to communicate this And have continuity in the program) This can be shaped into a chain of multiple targets having the dog touch the targets in succession such as touch target one,two ,three click treat. Once this is done the dog is now fully engaged in the idea that offering a behavior reaps the reward. Now clicking on any behavior with out prompting such as the dog sitting has the dog offering the new behavior over and over again for the reward. Dog lays down click, dog steps on place board click, dog gets on barrel click. Any behavior the dog offers is rewardable. The command is only overlaid after the behavior is shaped. The dog now approaches training in a proactive way. The dog trains well because the motivator ,food, keeps the dog engaged. The greater the reward/motivator ,food,because the dog is hungry ,or birds because the dog is a bird dog, the more motivated the dog will be. The immediate click on any behavior is the initial stage in shaping more complex behaviors. Such as down stay or sit stay. The click is just gradually given later , first a second then a few seconds up to minutes. The dog is engaged and learns to wait for the click because it is motivated by the reward. Simply put this is a language the dog understands and understands well ,when it is applied correctly. When the dog understands what is going on and is in control of the reward it has great confidence in the training process . Give it a try you will not be disappointed.

[Luminary Setters]

If your interested in clicker training do as AG7 suggested and read Karen Prior's book. It is a viable training method that is effective with a variety of animals, including humans.

If you think it's hocus-pocus after you read her book, then don't apply it to your program. Chances are, if you read it with an open mind, you may find its application may be beneficial. Most that criticize it, simply don't understand it.