Controlling Range

ruffbritt4 · Post by **ruffbritt4** » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:37 pm

I have a Brittany who is starting to run too big for me. Are there any ways to get him to remain closer to me? Any advice would be much appreciated.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:54 pm

Start working on the check cord and work some quartering drills ...
What this will begin is to help teach him to turn and working in more of a windshield wiper effect in front of you thus letting him run covering more in front of you and keeping him in a bit closer.

IE every time he gets to the end of Your comfort zone whistle or command him to quarter

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:49 pm

Is your dog going with you and checking in, or is he in his own little world? Is he seeking or finding birds or just going out for a joy run? What formal training have you done with him so far?

Nate

ruffbritt4 · Post by **ruffbritt4** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:34 am

Knine,

Should I give him a command for him to quarter or do I want him to quarter once we get in the field?

Double Barrel,

He will check back in but not very often. The first 30 minutes in the field he is running all over, but once he gets a run out he will check in more often. He also is finding birds. Also, we have been working on come, woah, and heel. We recently have started using the e collar and he seems to be getting better with responding to our commands. We have him doing well on birds also.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:05 am

How big is too big?

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:18 am

A year ago, I was in a similar boat. I bought a big running Elhew Pointer out of trialing stock. It had been trained in the Dakotas to run the big prairie. The dog's range was huge. What the trainer told me was that making range smaller is a matter of repetitively turning the dog at shorter range and it would eventually shorten up.

That first year was a scary season for me. I was constantly worried about loosing the dog or the dog doing whatever it wanted when out of sight.

This past year, I trained the dog to turn on the tone from my Garmin Alpha because I want to be a quieter hunter and not blow a whistle all the time. We also got into tighter country where she needed to stay closer to be in sight, most of the time. Sometimes 200-300 yrds was fine, sometimes 100 yds or less was necessary. When I needed her closer, I gave a turn command. Repetition has paid off and she will now hunt at a variety of ranges based on a combination of my turn commands and her comprehension of what is expected of her. I think it'll always be a combination of commands and learned expectations with my dog that has a tendancy to run big.

I haven't had a chance to get her back in some of the large open prairies of the midwest since I tightened her up. I suspect her really big running has been taken out of her and I'll pay for that in the big prairies in the few times I'll hunt them in the future, but I'm more often hunting the country that is short to mid range.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:37 pm

I too use a turn whistle to establish closer range.

Bill T.

ruffbritt4 · Post by **ruffbritt4** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:29 pm

Thanks for the help everybody. Looks like we will be working on quartering, and the whistle to turn him.

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:40 pm

I used to do this with my springers before I had britts---I would plant quail within 30 to 40 yards of where I'd be walking. The dogs started figuring out that birds were close to me and would spend most of their time working within 30 or 40 yards of me. This will probably work for britts as well---just adjust the yardage where you plant your birds to the distance you are comfortable having your dogs run. Good luck

ruffbritt4 · Post by **ruffbritt4** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:57 pm

Deseeker,
Thanks for the advise, i will try that.

Mollyontherun · Post by **Mollyontherun** » Fri May 03, 2013 10:52 am

Brittany who is starting to run too big for me

Many of the respondents are vastly more experienced trainers than me.... that being said- I rarely quarter my GSPs. When I was young I had a couple of English Cocker Spaniels that I quartered. After the Spaniels passed- I got the pointers to eliminate that step. In those days... I never used an E-collar. The Spaniels naturally hunted close.

We hunt a lot of wild, late season, running birds. The "ladies" know those birds are running and want to try and get ahead and turn them. The "ladies" also know that they are better hunters than me

But our chances of turning and holding those birds are rather slim. It's better for us not to press too hard. So when they get too far I tell them they have to come All The Way Back To Me (check in). Appropriate and non cruel use of the E-collar enforces the command for them to check back in. I assume you use an E-collar?

We hunt a lot of rolling hills, brush, and Russian Olives. So I need the dogs close. When we do get on flat open fields.... I allow them to go as far as I can see them. I know the ladies will hold their points and not bust the birds. If you have confidence that the birds in your area are holding- and your dog will stay on point- another option is to get a Garmin Unit, and let your dog loose. You can find your dog with the Garmin.

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Fri May 03, 2013 11:18 am

I do not want my dogs to quarter. When I am running puppies I carry a sack of pigeons with me. When the puppy gets too far away, I will yell to get his attention, I may have to nick him with a low intensity on the collar. When he is looking at me, I reach in the sack and toss a pigeon. It does not take many sessions of this before I have the dogs complete attention, and can call them to come around at any time. Later on after the dog is broke, I will occasionally still carry the sack of pigeons. When the dog gets too far away, I take a pigeon, lock his wings and toss him in to some cover right next to me. I will then call the dog in and he will have a find within ten feet of me. I do this drill occasionally throughout the dogs life, and it generally keeps them paying attention. You would not believe the difference in how a dog pays attention to you when he firmly believes that you have pigeons.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Fri May 03, 2013 1:41 pm

The horseback trialers would probably say that's not a good thing to have the dog do what they call "popping" or checking back often. As a foot hunter, I can think of much worse things I'd be unhappy about.

But, as to a quartering pattern in a dog, I prefer it to ensure we aren't walking right past birds and not getting in their scent cone. I suppose if you're hunting where there are plenty of birds and will find more further ahead anyway, it doesn't matter. For me, more often than not, I'm hunting in areas where the birds are sparse. Sometimes missing picking up a covey means not seeing any birds that day.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri May 03, 2013 2:54 pm

I hunt where birds are sparse which is precisely why I do not want my dog quartering. It wastes too much time and energy on both my part and the dogs part. Let the dog learn where birds are likely to be found, then let the dog learn how to find then there, then let the dog roll and do his thing finding the birds that are few and far between. When he find them I will walk over there and shoot them, otherwise.... I just amble along.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri May 03, 2013 6:04 pm

slistoe wrote:I hunt where birds are sparse which is precisely why I do not want my dog quartering. It wastes too much time and energy on both my part and the dogs part. Let the dog learn where birds are likely to be found, then let the dog learn how to find then there, then let the dog roll and do his thing finding the birds that are few and far between. When he find them I will walk over there and shoot them, otherwise.... I just amble along.

Yep.

If you want a dog to quarter at close range, a spaniel or Lab might be a better fit.

ruffbritt4 · Post by **ruffbritt4** » Fri May 03, 2013 7:31 pm

Thanks guys for the help. I guess it is just really hard for me to let my dog run big like that. I will just have to get used to it.

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Fri May 03, 2013 8:59 pm

I would say 95% of dogs will settle into a comfortable hunting range given adequate time to mature and enough bird exposure. I'd find some big expanses of land with no hazards and just try to keep quiet. You and your dog will be working as a team in no time, regardless if its 20 or 200 yards.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Fri May 03, 2013 11:30 pm

Neil wrote:
slistoe wrote:I hunt where birds are sparse which is precisely why I do not want my dog quartering. It wastes too much time and energy on both my part and the dogs part. Let the dog learn where birds are likely to be found, then let the dog learn how to find then there, then let the dog roll and do his thing finding the birds that are few and far between. When he find them I will walk over there and shoot them, otherwise.... I just amble along.
Yep.

If you want a dog to quarter at close range, a spaniel or Lab might be a better fit.

I'm sure your methods are the best for you, your dogs and your places to hunt. I'm in the west. Some land I hunt is as big as it gets, some as tight as it gets. I've watched friend's dogs beeline it to past contacts it had on land it hunts over and over. I've also found new contacts that those dogs missed because they were straighlining to their honey holes and not hunting other nearby areas. I hunt many unfamilar areas that neither I nor the dog have previous contacts with birds to have in our memories. I believe my dog has the stamina and training for me to direct her where I want her, yet still quarter to cover an area I put her in. It's up to me to put my dog where I want her. It works for me with my dog where I hunt. Whether my dog is ranging 50 yards or 1/2 mile I can shorten her up with a turn or recall.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri May 03, 2013 11:59 pm

And I am sure your way works for you.

But I have found if I develop the dog's 16,000 plus years as a successful predator, I don't need to direct him anywhere, his hunting instincts will carry him where birds are most likely to be without quartering. I am not trying to change you, just help the OP. He just needs to buy a Garmin, train his dog, and enjoy the hunt.

ruffbritt4 · Post by **ruffbritt4** » Sat May 04, 2013 7:10 am

I was considering a garmin before next season. Any body have experiences with them (good or bad)?

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Sat May 04, 2013 7:22 am

Get him broke, get a Garmin and let him roll.

reba · Post by **reba** » Sat May 04, 2013 7:33 am

If you want to find wild birds get a Garmin GPS on your dog and go hunting!

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Sat May 04, 2013 7:40 am

ruffbritt4 wrote:I was considering a garmin before next season. Any body have experiences with them (good or bad)?

I've had two Garmins. The Astro 320 is a good unit and easy to use. I don't like the battery life and that the handheld unit uses AA batteries.

The Alpha has been better on battery life and has a correction collar system built in. I wouldn't call it a training collar but it does work for that somewhat. One feature on the correction collar function that I use every time I hunt is the tone. I have trained to use it for a turn/recall. Much nicer than blasting a whistle all the time.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat May 04, 2013 8:18 am

FWIW-

Tracking systems take most all of the angst out of letting a dog roll, because you do know right where the dogh is and pretty much what it is doing...even though you cannot see the dog.

I grew up with dogs that you let go and then went and found on point. That was how we hunted. No bells, no beepers, no e-collars no nothin', just shoeleather. You really did not know, for sure, if you were ever gonna see that SOB again once you let it loose. It is an uneasy feeling in your gut that I for one never quite got used to.

However, I have to say that In over fifty years of chasing those kinds of dogs in all kinds of terrain, I have not yet lost a dog permanently. A couple went over the hill on deer and were laying on my shirt on the ground the next morning but with those exceptions, they all came home with me when the hunt was over. A dog that wants to hunt with you and for you...will do just that. A dog that wants to hunt with you and for you will know where you are, even if you do not know where they are. Believe it.

It does take some getting used to, but the previous poster was dead on when they said that over time, both you and your dog will grow accustomed to each other and will find a balance that works for both.

RayG

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat May 04, 2013 9:31 am

A dog that wants to hunt with you and for you will know where you are, even if you do not know where they are. Believe it.

This is a point that I try to tell new owners over and over. The dog isn't lost because you don't know where it is. It is only lost when it doesn't know where it and you are and I have found very very few dogs that got lost.

One other point that was always one of my pet pieves for years. people would come and want to buy a pup because they couldn't find the birds and as soon as they got one they spend most of their time telling it where to hunt. :roll:

Ezzy

Rookie · Post by **Rookie** » Sat May 04, 2013 9:57 am

I had the same concern and a friend recently put it to me this way. "that's obedience, you call the dog and he comes back". But I can see how it would be helpful to differentiate between “change directions” and “here”. But teaching a change of directions can be a little more ambiguous to me.

Having said that, if the recall is solid things won’t get too out of hand to me. So my intentions are a solid foundation with the recall using the e-collar.

Post by **Sharon** » Sat May 04, 2013 1:50 pm

Welcome to the forum.

Except that the dog wastes a lot of time being called back regularly , and may bust birds responding to your command. Much better to use a cue for changing direction at a distance- if that is what you want.
I prefer to let the dog go ( pointing breed) , having taught him to hold that bird until I get there.

ruffbritt4 · Post by **ruffbritt4** » Sun May 05, 2013 10:32 am

Does anybody know the difference between the astro 320 and the 220? I can't seem to find many differences

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun May 05, 2013 4:07 pm

ruffbritt4 wrote:Does anybody know the difference between the astro 320 and the 220? I can't seem to find many differences

Not real sure, but I think the 320 will give you a reading on the dog no matter how the unit is situated. My 220 must be flat and level. There are probably a bunch more bells and whistles on the newer models, but I don't use the features I have now on my 220. The 220 works fine for me to locate my dogs. That is all I am really interested in anyway.

The DC 30 collar comes with a fabric nylon?? collar that frays and gets fuzzy around the holes. I understand the DC 40 comes with a plastic coated collar that is much neater in appearance and stands up to routine use without fraying.

RayG

mask · Post by **mask** » Sun May 05, 2013 6:19 pm

Sharon wrote:Welcome to the forum.

Except that the dog wastes a lot of time being called back regularly , and may bust birds responding to your command. Much better to use a cue for changing direction at a distance- if that is what you want.
I prefer to let the dog go ( pointing breed) , having taught him to hold that bird until I get there.

Yep, +1.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Sun May 05, 2013 11:30 pm

The 220 does fine for me. I don't need features I won't use anyways. It tells the direction, distance and if the dog is on the move or on point. Some great deals on used ones also can be found here and on the field trialer board. There was one lately for 350$

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Tue May 07, 2013 8:57 am

ruffbritt4 wrote:Thanks guys for the help. I guess it is just really hard for me to let my dog run big like that. I will just have to get used to it.

Quartering where I live is not always practical or productive. I like to see my dogs run objectives like arroyos, tree line edges, ridges etc. If you have a well bred dog, he will figure out "eventually" where the birds are and go there on instinct. I figure I can find the birds that are close with out a dog. I do want my dog to "go with me" and key off the direction I am walking. I don't want my dog to hunt from behind but he should be able to hunt how he wants to hunt as long as he is hunting with me.

brianb · Post by **brianb** » Mon May 13, 2013 6:49 am

Guys who have had big ranging dogs - Do you find the range shortens up and they pay more attention to your whereabouts as the dogs get older? I think some of the huge running is due to pure excitement of being out of the house and exploring and puppy energy.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Mon May 13, 2013 7:29 am

brianb wrote:Guys who have had big ranging dogs - Do you find the range shortens up and they pay more attention to your whereabouts as the dogs get older? I think some of the huge running is due to pure excitement of being out of the house and exploring and puppy energy.

I found range shortened as a result of my turning the dog, either with a whistle or the tone feature, to keep the dog within eyesight. The dog has become more attuned to going with me rather than running off and hunting without regard to my location. With this dog being my first English Pointer, I'm learning as I go, but my feeling is that the breed is wired to hunt, running long distances at high speeds, and it's my job to guide it and control range. With enough experiences, the dog has become more focused on going with me and staying at more acceptable range for a foot hunter. I'm sure the day will come when I want more range for a hunting situation and I'll have found that the dog wants to stay closer than I want that day. I hope to be able to give the dog enough varied experiences that it doesn't continue to shorten up, but rather hunts at distances that fit the terrain. I think I'm well on the road to that.

As for quartering, I want the ability for me to make the dog quarter by using turn cues, and for it to 'hunt on its own' by letting her run, as well as me being able to guide the dog to where I want. I have an E-pointer because I wanted the most athletic dog for the climate and terrains I hunt. If I had a different breed, I'd be more concerned about wasting energy. Energy is not in short supply with this dog. I've hunted 3 days in a row for several hours each day.

brianb · Post by **brianb** » Mon May 13, 2013 8:07 am

I dont mind the range when we're in the big open fields. I just dont like him 300 + yards out when we're in the grouse woods.
I'm hoping with contunued training and maturity he'll learn to adjust his range to the cover.

Gun Dog Forum