When trash breaking fails

[Malinak]

I posted before about my dogs' obsession with chasing and treeing moose.

This winter, I didn't have problems- the moose weren't around much and my dogs gave up chase-treeing/barking when I called.

Spring, and they are finding moose to chase. So I decided to try trash breaking. Saying nothing, I lit them up with high-level continuous stim when they started chasing a moose- they yipped/howled at the stim and kept chasing. Stim again, and same thing- they kept going. I started feeling like a dog abuser, so I stopped. I have dogtra e-collars that go up to level 120. The dogs certainly felt it.

Where did I go wrong? I can't always call them off before the chase starts because moose can appear suddenly and like to run and my dogs get real joy and drive fulfillment out of chasing them. Should I try using the same methods again? Should I try again but use a long line? There are places I can drive to where I am very likely to find moose, and I could jolt them on the line so I have more control. However, their drive won't be as high in this scenario if I'm working one dog at a time- but they may get the idea and carry it over to the moose chase scenario.

Since moose scent and moose themselves are everywhere, I'd like to not trash break them off the sight or scent of moose, but only the activity of chasing or treeing a moose.

I wouldn't call my dogs "hard" dogs, but I would call them- all three of them- very driven. This needs to stop. Moose run big and it is a dangerous situation. Now they've had a chance to practice chasing moose and see how fun it is- they look to do it every chance they get. I'd like to let my dogs enjoy off leash time when I am trail running, but will have no choice but to leash them at all times if I can't fix this problem. That won't be fun for me or them.

These are working dogs- but not bird dogs. Their "real" work does not involve any form of hunting although the thought of training them for grouse and ptarmigan is intriguing.

[Winchey]

I've never see a moose in a tree. I had the same problem on deer. I would hit one dog at 120 on the dogtra continuous, he would jump 6 feet in the air and hit the ground running after the deer. First time took 3 or 4 of these to stop him, then a couple more set ups and he quit after the 1st or 2nd. He still likes to run trash but he barks when he chases and after the shock therapy I can get him off usually with voice.

[Neil]

I am sure the animal rights folks and the dogs agree you are abusing them, but you need to know you may well be saving their lives. You need to continue the stimulation until the chase stop, whatever it takes.

Stopping and then letting the chase may be more abusive, be strong, you can do it.

[Doc E]

I really need to see a pic of a moose in a tree.

.

[roaniecowpony]

I'd go back to collar conditioning to teach the dogs how to shut off the collar. Then I'd use a mid level stim with momentary and pulse it until the dog turns.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

I don't know what to say, but I do know one thing. I'm going to think about this post next time I hunt out of a tree stand.

I wonder if it's legal to shoot a moose out of a tree?

Nate

[Neil]

I'd go back to collar conditioning to teach the dogs how to shut off the collar. Then I'd use a mid level stim with momentary and pulse it until the dog turns.

Not in my experience, to trash break, you really need to hit them at the highest level until they avoid the impetus and the chase, they need to think it is the moose that hurts them. It has nothing to do with collar conditioning or training of any kind.

You have to be tough to do it right, but you may save a life. A cornered moose is dangerous, but more likely is to lead the dog to a road, river or obstacle.

It really will hurt you more than the dog. Oh, you need to do this one dog at a time.

And to the comics, "treed" is used by houndmen to mean bring to bay or corner, used for mountain lions when there isn't a tree for miles.

[birddogger]

I'd go back to collar conditioning to teach the dogs how to shut off the collar. Then I'd use a mid level stim with momentary and pulse it until the dog turns.

Not in my experience, to trash break, you really need to hit them at the highest level until they avoid the impetus and the chase, they need to think it is the moose that hurts them. It has nothing to do with collar conditioning or training of any kind.

You have to be tough to do it right, but you may save a life. A cornered moose is dangerous, but more likely is to lead the dog to a road, river or obstacle.

It really will hurt you more than the dog. Oh, you need to do this one dog at a time.

And to the comics, "treed" is used by houndmen to mean bring to bay or corner, used for mountain lions when there isn't a tree for miles.

I agree with everything stated here!!

Charlie

[campgsp]

I think your just going about it in the wrong but almost right way.
You want to fry them good, and you want to give a command at the time to such as "leave it". By you not saying anything to them all they think is that the moose is shocking them and most dogs are still going to go after. They need a reason to stop imo frying only with no cue does little use.
When I say fry I mean fry. Like no other.

The dog starts chase I fry and command leave it. They try on I fry longer commanding leave it! Usually by the second fry they haven't gotten far the game is far on. And I am able to heel or guide them away. You need to fry so they don't have ability to chase and command aswell. Just my .02 anyway.

[Cajun Casey]

Put the collar on high and hold the button down until they break off. Do it at the first sign they are reacting to a moose, including visual acknowledgment. Keep your mouth shut. You don't have a solid recall so you can't punish them for disobeying. If you don't want to knock the snot out of them or keep them leashed, just wait until a moose gets hold of one. What will be left won't be pretty.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

I'd go back to collar conditioning to teach the dogs how to shut off the collar. Then I'd use a mid level stim with momentary and pulse it until the dog turns.

Not in my experience, to trash break, you really need to hit them at the highest level until they avoid the impetus and the chase, they need to think it is the moose that hurts them. It has nothing to do with collar conditioning or training of any kind.

You have to be tough to do it right, but you may save a life. A cornered moose is dangerous, but more likely is to lead the dog to a road, river or obstacle.

It really will hurt you more than the dog. Oh, you need to do this one dog at a time.

And to the comics, "treed" is used by houndmen to mean bring to bay or corner, used for mountain lions when there isn't a tree for miles.

Geez Neil. lighten up a little. I knew what he meant.

I think "trash breaking" is probably the best way to handle this as well. The dog(s) need to understand that their behavior results in an undesirable consequence. I ran a couple of dogs in a snake avoidance clinic last year. They ran about 200 dogs that day. I doubt that very many of the people understood what was going on (the majority were non-hunters, and didn't have any experience with an e-collar), but I think nearly every one of the dogs figured it out pretty quickly.

Nate

[roaniecowpony]

I understood him to state he had the collars on the highest setting on continuous and it didn't turn the dogs. So if more voltage is the answer...what do you recommend .... hook em to an extension cord? Case hardened comes to mind.

[x Bred Pointer]

I wonder if it's legal to shoot a moose out of a tree?

Nate[/quote]

It's legal but very unethical. Even worse than ground swatting grouse.

[Neil]

As Nate says go to a snake avoidance clinic to better understand. Everyone I have seen use TriTronics at the highest level, and I have never seen a dog able to ignore it. I do not know about the other collars, but with a TT, I don't need an extention cord.

I did have one dog that did take an added collar on the flank to be convinced snakes hurt you. And that is the point many are missing, this is not training, it is not about obedience, the dog must think the critter did it. YOU SAY NOTHING, YOU DO NOTHING.

To the OP. Be tough, you can do it, and you might save a life.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

I'd go back to collar conditioning to teach the dogs how to shut off the collar. Then I'd use a mid level stim with momentary and pulse it until the dog turns.

Not in my experience, to trash break, you really need to hit them at the highest level until they avoid the impetus and the chase, they need to think it is the moose that hurts them. It has nothing to do with collar conditioning or training of any kind.

You have to be tough to do it right, but you may save a life. A cornered moose is dangerous, but more likely is to lead the dog to a road, river or obstacle.

It really will hurt you more than the dog. Oh, you need to do this one dog at a time.

And to the comics, "treed" is used by houndmen to mean bring to bay or corner, used for mountain lions when there isn't a tree for miles.[/quot

What happened to letting the dog "train its self"? Seems like you took a 180 on your training philosophy.

I have posted that my Mt. Lion hounds needed to be broken from chasing other game and you blasted me saying that they will train themselves. hmmm.

[campgsp]

As Nate says go to a snake avoidance clinic to better understand. Everyone I have seen use TriTronics at the highest level, and I have never seen a dog able to ignore it. I do not know about the other collars, but with a TT, I don't need an extention cord.

I did have one dog that did take an added collar on the flank to be convinced snakes hurt you. And that is the point many are missing, this is not training, it is not about obedience, the dog must think the critter did it. YOU SAY NOTHING, YOU DO NOTHING.

To the OP. Be tough, you can do it, and you might save a life.

Your doing something - pressing the button to fry the dog. :roll:
Your TRAINING them not to chase. :roll:

Uh oh :roll:

[jimbo&rooster]

I don't have anything overly helpful to add here, but years ago I had a coon hound who you could not convince that coons were more fun than deer. At the time I was using an old school trash breaker, and could put that dog in the dirt only to have him get up and keep going. I worked for 2yrs on this dog. Nothing worked including some questions able methods. I sold that dog to a man down south for ALOT of money as a deer dog.

I say this because there are a few dogs that just can't be broke from "trash". I don't that is the case here though. This is not a case where you can go easy on a dog. You need to cook him and he needs to know that moose are mean as heck.

Jim

[Neil]

I don't have anything overly helpful to add here, but years ago I had a coon hound who you could not convince that coons were more fun than deer. At the time I was using an old school trash breaker, and could put that dog in the dirt only to have him get up and keep going. I worked for 2yrs on this dog. Nothing worked including some questions able methods. I sold that dog to a man down south for ALOT of money as a deer dog.

I say this because there are a few dogs that just can't be broke from "trash". I don't that is the case here though. This is not a case where you can go easy on a dog. You need to cook him and he needs to know that moose are mean as heck.

Jim

Jim, Don't doubt your story, and I am not saying I could break him off all deer, but with the collar on I can keep him from chasing that deer¡ until the collar lost charge. You have to be hard hearted to keep frying them.

I am glad it worked out for you, the dog, and the new owner

[RayGubernat]

I have yet to see a bird dog that was as singleminded as a hound. I have had a couple that were close though.

If a dog has been allowed to chase for an extended period of time, it may indeed be impossible to "break" them of chasing. That is why it is vital to get on them the first time or the second time and stay on them for as long as it takes to effectively "break " them of that particular behavior.

Once it has become a habit, the dog is in trouble, because it cannot be trusted. I NEVER let my bird dogs run loose when I am not there. Too many bad things to learn.

I have seen a dog with a collar on its neck and one on its flank. If that does not stop the dog, there ain't much more you can do.

RayG

[Neil]

Ray, I have not seen a dog that you can't stop until the batteries run down. The problem is you might always have to run them with the GPS and e-collar.

So I can't understand this discussion, it is so outside my experience.

I once made an error with a flacky dog, she tried to bolt instead of coming when cued, she never did come, but she sure stopped trying to run a way. I nearly ruined her, as for over a year, when called she would stop, quiver, and pee. One of my biggest failures, and I am ashamed.

But on continuous high an e-collar has much the same effect as a taser.

[jimbo&rooster]

Neil,

Where i come from trash breaking doesn't mean it will stop chasing when I press the button. Trash breaking means I can dump that dog right in the middle of a herd of deer and he will run through and never look up, because deer are mean as heck and they bite.

In my mind a dog I have to run with a GPS and an ECollar be cause I might need to call him off deer is more than welcome in YOUR kennel.

Jim