Retrieving

ruffbritt4 · Post by **ruffbritt4** » Mon May 20, 2013 3:37 pm

When i am working on retrieving in the yard with my dog and a bumper,and he does not bring it back, is it okay to give light stimulation to reinforce his retrieve? We are working with the bumper not a dead bird if it makes any difference, thanks for the help.

Double Shot Banks · Post by **Double Shot Banks** » Mon May 20, 2013 3:58 pm

Depending on the age, force fetch will be recommended depending on the training program. Im sure doc e will ask what one your following and tell you to follow it and not ask questions on here. My dog loved to retrieve, but around 6 months he started keeping it for himself, about 7 months we ff him. He is lots better now but will need a touch up lesson before this hunting season.
Isaac and Banks

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Mon May 20, 2013 4:23 pm

Breed of dog ?
Age of dog ?
Training program being followed ?

.

ruffbritt4 · Post by **ruffbritt4** » Mon May 20, 2013 4:32 pm

Brittany, 10 months old.

campgsp · Post by **campgsp** » Mon May 20, 2013 4:38 pm

ruffbritt4 wrote:When i am working on retrieving in the yard with my dog and a bumper,and he does not bring it back, is it okay to give light stimulation to reinforce his retrieve? We are working with the bumper not a dead bird if it makes any difference, thanks for the help.

Force fetch would help this. But not everyone wants to ff a dog.
As to your question.. are you talking stimulate with ecollar? If you are I'd advise not to.
Try putting a check chord on him and when he picks it up pull him back to you. Give lots of praise without reaching for the bumper. letting him know it's his will go along way. Repetition is your friend.

ruffbritt4 · Post by **ruffbritt4** » Mon May 20, 2013 4:39 pm

Campgsp

I am talking about using the ecollar.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Mon May 20, 2013 5:38 pm

e collar might make him quit if he hasn't been ff CJ

campgsp · Post by **campgsp** » Mon May 20, 2013 5:48 pm

cjhills wrote:e collar might make him quit if he hasn't been ff CJ

+1

Ruffbrit, check out standing stone kennels. I believe Ethan has videos of doing ff with an ecollar. All his force fetching is done using the Collar with great results. If that's the route you want to go. Even give Ethan a call he's a real down to earth guy and will set you on the right path.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon May 20, 2013 6:45 pm

ruffbritt4 wrote:When i am working on retrieving in the yard with my dog and a bumper,and he does not bring it back, is it okay to give light stimulation to reinforce his retrieve? We are working with the bumper not a dead bird if it makes any difference, thanks for the help.

No!!!!

Charlie

ruffbritt4 · Post by **ruffbritt4** » Mon May 20, 2013 6:53 pm

Thanks for your help guys, i am training my first bird dog so i want to make sure i do it right

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Mon May 20, 2013 7:21 pm

ruffbritt4 wrote:Thanks for your help guys, i am training my first bird dog so i want to make sure i do it right

Ecollar = Not yet
1. Teach
2. Enforce
3. Reinforce (ecollar)
4. Follow a proven training program

.

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Mon May 20, 2013 8:06 pm

ruffbritt4 wrote:Brittany, 10 months old.

You failed to answer Docs final question, but 2 out of 3 aint bad huh Doc?

Nate

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Mon May 20, 2013 11:27 pm

I used Evan Graham's Smartfetch program with our Chessie successfully. The collar should NOT be used at this point - the dog hasn't been trained to retrieve. He doesn't understand that he "has" to retrieve. Force Fetch will do that for you. I'd find a plan I liked and follow that. I'm not sure if I'd force the issue with such a young dog - but if the dog is mature, then FF would likely help.

Gooseman07 · Post by **Gooseman07** » Tue May 21, 2013 10:16 am

I asked a similar before. The answer that I received was that I had an obedience issue with "Here/Come". The dog doesn't think he ALWAYS has to bring you whatever he has. I would put the dog back on a check cord and work with your retrieving that way. When the dog gets to the bumper, bring him/her back to you with the cord.

buckshot1 · Post by **buckshot1** » Tue May 21, 2013 10:35 am

+1 on don't e-collar the dog. Retrieving is supposed to be fun for him.

The first thing I'd try is moving away from the dog when he picks up the bumper so that he wants to chase you instead of run away from you. Also, your dog views you as competition for the bumper, so don't reinforce his belief by ripping the bumper away from him. Pet him for a while when he brings it back until he voluntarily drops it. If he doesn't voluntarily drop it, blow in his ear or grab the loose skin by his flank and he will drop it. Just don't rip it out of his mouth. Competition for the bumper leads to him not wanting to release the bumper, which eventually leads to the problem you're having, not wanting to bring you the bumper.

Double Shot Banks · Post by **Double Shot Banks** » Tue May 21, 2013 7:19 pm

Doc E wrote:
Double Shot Banks wrote: Im sure doc e will............................... and not ask questions on here.
Isaac and Banks
Incorrect again, young grasshopper.

.

Doc's always right, what was i thinking
Isaac and Banks

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Wed May 22, 2013 7:49 am

Gooseman07 wrote:I asked a similar before. The answer that I received was that I had an obedience issue with "Here/Come". The dog doesn't think he ALWAYS has to bring you whatever he has. I would put the dog back on a check cord and work with your retrieving that way. When the dog gets to the bumper, bring him/her back to you with the cord.

Exactly correct.
"HERE" is the command that is being broken by the dog.
Make sure HERE and excellent obedience are in place before FF.

.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Wed May 22, 2013 8:50 am

Doc E wrote:
Double Shot Banks wrote: what was i thinking
Isaac and Banks
You weren't.

.

Cyber Bully

EvanG · Post by **EvanG** » Wed May 22, 2013 8:52 am

Doc E wrote:"HERE" is the command that is being broken by the dog.
Make sure HERE and excellent obedience are in place before FF.

.

That is exactly correct.

EvanG

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Wed May 22, 2013 7:04 pm

Double Shot Banks wrote: Doc's always right, what was i thinking
Isaac and Banks

Get it ? --- Yup, you got it from the REAL Master.

Doc E wrote:
"HERE" is the command that is being broken by the dog.
Make sure HERE and excellent obedience are in place before FF.

Evan G wrote : .That is exactly correct.

I certainly don't know it all --- and never will, but I certainly know more than a 15 year old virgin trainer.

.

Double Shot Banks · Post by **Double Shot Banks** » Thu May 23, 2013 4:30 pm

Doc E wrote:
I certainly don't know it all --- and never will, but I certainly know more than a 15 year old virgin trainer.

.

But, i have taught a dog to retrieve, and been through/am going through he last stages of the ff process.
Ive been training my dog for 6 months now, and been all around other trainers and dogs since.
I have no doubt you know more than me, but to tell me i know NOTHING, now thats not nice thing to say.
My opinions and what i say may or may not help ruffbrit4. maybe its just me but i dont think you should be able to tell him my opinion means nothing.
Isaac and Banks

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu May 23, 2013 4:48 pm

Double Shot Banks wrote:But, i have taught a dog to retrieve, and been through/am going through he last stages of the ff process.Ive been training my dog for 6 months now, and been all around other trainers and dogs since.I have no doubt you know more than me, but to tell me i know NOTHING, now thats not nice thing to say.My opinions and what i say may or may not help ruffbrit4. maybe its just me but i dont think you should be able to tell him my opinion means nothing.Isaac and Banks

Isaac, I think you will find all these lessons in dog training and maybe more importantly human behavior quite beneficial some day. My advice is to keep asking questions and express yourself, but do it with a thick skin, you will be wrong more than right, but if you keep it in perspective you will always learn something...and don't worry, I have spoken to the owners of the forum. They will send Doc a certificate authenticating that he has managed to learn more than a 15 year old in his time on earth. There will be special mention that he has managed to make multitudes of people uncomfortable in his interaction with said 15 year old...I do hope it gets the proper place in his trophy case.

Joe

Double Shot Banks · Post by **Double Shot Banks** » Thu May 23, 2013 5:53 pm

Isaac, I think you will find all these lessons in dog training and maybe more importantly human behavior quite beneficial some day. My advice is to keep asking questions and express yourself, but do it with a thick skin, you will be wrong more than right, but if you keep it in perspective you will always learn something...and don't worry, I have spoken to the owners of the forum. They will send Doc a certificate authenticating that he has managed to learn more than a 15 year old in his time on earth. There will be special mention that he has managed to make multitudes of people uncomfortable in his interaction with said 15 year old...I do hope it gets the proper place in his trophy case.

Joe

This is exactly what i invisioned when joining this forum, a place where i can ask questions and receive answers and maybe even answer a few myself.
I didnt imagine any forum kings/queens that know it all.
I understand i am very stubborn and dont know much, but thats why im here
Isaac and Banks

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Thu May 23, 2013 7:03 pm

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Thu May 23, 2013 7:05 pm

Double Shot Banks wrote:
Doc E wrote:
I certainly don't know it all --- and never will, but I certainly know more than a 15 year old virgin trainer.

.
But, i have taught a dog to retrieve, and been through/am going through he last stages of the ff process.
Ive been training my dog for 6 months now, and been all around other trainers and dogs since.
I have no doubt you know more than me, but to tell me i know NOTHING, now thats not nice thing to say.
My opinions and what i say may or may not help ruffbrit4. maybe its just me but i dont think you should be able to tell him my opinion means nothing.
Isaac and Banks

Exactly which post was it that i told you that you "know nothing" --- I can't seem to find it.

.

Double Shot Banks · Post by **Double Shot Banks** » Thu May 23, 2013 7:27 pm

Doc E wrote:
Exactly which post was it that i told you that you "know nothing" --- I can't seem to find it.

.

I cant seem to find it either, or any of your posts...maybe im missing something

cjhills wrote:
Doc E wrote:
Double Shot Banks wrote: what was i thinking
Isaac and Banks
You weren't.

.
Cyber Bully

Double Shot Banks wrote:
Doc E wrote:
Double Shot Banks wrote: Im sure doc e will............................... and not ask questions on here.
Isaac and Banks
Incorrect again, young grasshopper.

.
Doc's always right, what was i thinking
Isaac and Banks

cant find any of these,
Isaac and Banks

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Thu May 23, 2013 8:18 pm

Double Shot Banks wrote:
Doc E wrote:
Exactly which post was it that i told you that you "know nothing" --- I can't seem to find it..
I cant seem to find it either, or any of your posts...maybe im missing something
cant find any of these,
Isaac and Banks

If it ain't true, then don't say it fella. :roll:

.

Double Shot Banks · Post by **Double Shot Banks** » Fri May 24, 2013 7:35 am

Doc E wrote:
Double Shot Banks wrote:
Doc E wrote:
Exactly which post was it that i told you that you "know nothing" --- I can't seem to find it..
I cant seem to find it either, or any of your posts...maybe im missing something
cant find any of these,
Isaac and Banks

If it ain't true, then don't say it fella. :roll:

.

What i meant is it looks like maybe they were removed?

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Fri May 24, 2013 7:36 pm

Double Shot Banks wrote: What i meant is it looks like maybe they were removed?

Incorrect again --- They are all still there.
If they weren't still up, how could i quote them ?
Did you "accidentally" put me on "IGNORE" ?

.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri May 24, 2013 11:28 pm

Doc you really need to quit the drinking. It clouds your judgement. (I hope you have such an excuse). The posts you made are not there - they exist only because someone else has quoted them in their posts. If you did not remove the originals because of sober second thought, then it would seem the moderators did so for you.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sat May 25, 2013 6:39 am

Doc E are you sure you know more than a 15 year old? What was Mike Lardy doing at 15..................Cj

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat May 25, 2013 7:48 am

Chukar12 wrote:
Double Shot Banks wrote:But, i have taught a dog to retrieve, and been through/am going through he last stages of the ff process.Ive been training my dog for 6 months now, and been all around other trainers and dogs since.I have no doubt you know more than me, but to tell me i know NOTHING, now thats not nice thing to say.My opinions and what i say may or may not help ruffbrit4. maybe its just me but i dont think you should be able to tell him my opinion means nothing.Isaac and Banks

Isaac, I think you will find all these lessons in dog training and maybe more importantly human behavior quite beneficial some day. My advice is to keep asking questions and express yourself, but do it with a thick skin, you will be wrong more than right, but if you keep it in perspective you will always learn something...and don't worry, I have spoken to the owners of the forum. They will send Doc a certificate authenticating that he has managed to learn more than a 15 year old in his time on earth. There will be special mention that he has managed to make multitudes of people uncomfortable in his interaction with said 15 year old...I do hope it gets the proper place in his trophy case.

Joe

Amen and so well said

Double Shot Banks · Post by **Double Shot Banks** » Sat May 25, 2013 8:32 am

I would like to apologize for my behavior to ruffbritt4 for turning his question into a huge immature argument.
Isaac and Banks

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat May 25, 2013 9:18 am

I tend to listen to young people and new trainers, they make me think, not so much for their opinions, but their questions. For what they are doing wrong and why. I am not so keen when they suggest I am wrong without understand what I am doing.

I wonder next year when he legally drives his first car if he will be giving advice to Jimmy Johnson and other NASCAR stars.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat May 25, 2013 10:07 am

Neil wrote:I tend to listen to young people and new trainers, they make me think, not so much for their opinions, but their questions. For what they are doing wrong and why. I am not so keen when they suggest I am wrong without understand what I am doing.

I wonder next year when he legally drives his first car if he will be giving advice to Jimmy Johnson and other NASCAR stars.

And may I ask what this post did for anyone? I wonder in the next years when you legally lose your licence if you will be giving advice to Jimmy Johnson and other NASCAR stars. Do you feel better or were you just trying to keep ahead of Doc? As I age I find it is enjoyable to listen to everyone including the youngsters who are on the way up and the oldsters who feel they know everything and have to make fun of anyone that disagrees with them. I can't say too much though since I may be that way to when I get old. I already have a fan club that tries very hard to criticize anything I post and I think that may be happening to Issac. I do agree there are a lot of posters on here who have gone from a novice to and expert in record time but we also have the experts who are so insecure they insult rather than teach. In either case we all are losing a lot.

Ezzy

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Sat May 25, 2013 11:10 am

It takes a long time after starting out to figure out who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't, especially on the forums. It is a little easier in person, but is still difficult at times.

That said, doing things for a long time doesn't mean you know anything. I have met some people that have been fooling with dogs for decades and I would rather take advice from Issac.

I also know people who have been fooling with dogs for decades and I may never be as good of a trainer, or handler, and don't have much to offer them, but I can certainly teach a dog with treats faster and better than then most of them lol, to bad it isn't that simple.

I also have learned a lot arguing with people I had no business arguing with, although I probably never would have admitted it at the time lol.

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sat May 25, 2013 11:54 am

"The only thing 2 dog trainers will agree on is that a third one is doing it wrong." Let's get this back on topic people, it's the internet, go fluff your feathers somewhere else where it might mean something.

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Sat May 25, 2013 12:10 pm

slistoe wrote:Doc you really need to quit the drinking. It clouds your judgement. (I hope you have such an excuse). The posts you made are not there - they exist only because someone else has quoted them in their posts. If you did not remove the originals because of sober second thought, then it would seem the moderators did so for you.

None of my posts are missing or deleted by myself or anyone else.

.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat May 25, 2013 1:07 pm

Doc E wrote:
slistoe wrote:Doc you really need to quit the drinking. It clouds your judgement. (I hope you have such an excuse). The posts you made are not there - they exist only because someone else has quoted them in their posts. If you did not remove the originals because of sober second thought, then it would seem the moderators did so for you.
None of my posts are missing or deleted by myself or anyone else.

.

Yes they are.

Ezzy

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat May 25, 2013 1:27 pm

As for what my post does for anyone? It is my hope that it will help th OP to know where to direct his attention.

Neither Jimmy Johnson nor his successors will ever ask my advice, the OP did.

And Ezzy, what did your post do for anyone?

Everyone's advice is not of equal value, and your attacks under the guise of moderation will not change that.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat May 25, 2013 2:40 pm

Neil wrote:As for what my post does for anyone? It is my hope that it will help th OP to know where to direct his attention.

Neither Jimmy Johnson nor his successors will ever ask my advice, the OP did.

And Ezzy, what did your post do for anyone?

Everyone's advice is not of equal value, and your attacks under the guise of moderation will not change that.

My post was not under the guise of moderation nor was it an attack. It was meant to give you some advice in a method other than just saying you are wrong. If you don't think someone understands what you are doing maybe it would be wiser to explain it so we all know.

Ezzy

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat May 25, 2013 3:37 pm

I wasn't going to respond, since I do not understand the above, guess I am not wise enough.

Fran Seagren · Post by **Fran Seagren** » Sat May 25, 2013 11:19 pm

I'm so confused.

campgsp · Post by **campgsp** » Sun May 26, 2013 7:06 am

Fran Seagren wrote:I'm so confused.

And your probably not the only one. Newbies come here for help and this is what always happened. "I'm right your wrong, I've trained 109 dogs, or for 20 years, you don't know anything" so tired of the nonsense.
What makes a trainer is doing the training effectively, and efficiently with great results. What makes a "pro" is a check..

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Sun May 26, 2013 7:08 am

Really wish a mod would get this back on topic. This bickering is ridiculous.

campgsp · Post by **campgsp** » Sun May 26, 2013 7:12 am

CDN_Cocker wrote:Really wish a mod would get this back on topic. This bickering is ridiculous.

X10

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun May 26, 2013 7:39 am

Good point. Not sure the whole thing shouldn't be deleted as there is little of any value after the first few posts. Get it back on track or it will be gone.

Ezzy