Obedience

[CDN_Cocker]

Quick question guys. It's common knowledge that obedience has to be solid before moving on to more daunting tasks in the field. However, when looking for information on obedience from a gun dog's point of view it seems scarce. I have a few books I bought and even they skim over obedience very quickly and most detail is on retrieving, casting, quartering and birds of course. Anyone have a good reference for solid obedience work? For instance, I see guys tell their labs to heel (when the handler is standing still) and the dog will back up to sit beside them. How do you achieve this? I don't want to go out and buy another book or dvd - is there any free literature on the web for this?

[crackerd]

Cass, so you shelled out on all those spaniel books only to find...that they just don't have it in them when it comes to sequential training or anything above basic obedience. Now you're going to stint on a few bucks and not get a book that does boast everything you need insofar as obedience for a retrieving gundog of any breed or persuasion? http://cherylonloveland.com/www.cherylo ... tions.html Wonder what your new mentor will have to say about that, eh?

MG

[CDN_Cocker]

LOL Mike I pm'ed you on the other forum this morning.... hahaha

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

[quote="CDN_Cocker"] However, when looking for information on obedience from a gun dog's point of view it seems scarce. quote]

I think you've discovered the problem Cass. Dogs can't read, and have no interest in self discipline.

Nate

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

Cass, so you shelled out on all those spaniel books only to find...that they just don't have it in them when it comes to sequential training or anything above basic obedience. Now you're going to stint on a few bucks and not get a book that does boast everything you need insofar as obedience for a retrieving gundog of any breed or persuasion? http://cherylonloveland.com/www.cherylo ... tions.html Wonder what your new mentor will have to say about that, eh?

MG

I've heard some good things about Cherylon. Worth a look. I may try to stop in there this fall on my way to ND.

Nate

[crackerd]

Impeccable timing, Cass. What you're seeing now is the aftermath of early puppyhood that went by without obedience brought along by treats. Yes, treats - many in retrievers (but precious few in spaniels) use them for sit and heel and here, which constitutes "basic obedience" regardless what kind of dog you have. Treats are used so the pup's rewarded for its "work" at a young age that translates, to the pup, as play. No matter what you call it, it's repetition and habit-forming, and thus when you get a pup to six months old, the obedience is in place and serious training for the foundation of handling for field work can begin.

Let's say you had a soft dog, a spaniel, and wanted to know what you could do with obedience at the age of oh, 5-6 months, that wouldn't cow the pup or quash its enthusiasm? Hmm, you might try treats. Treats are the opposite of pressure and foster enthusiasm for obedience, which can be pretty boring if you're a pup (or a dog) but is necessary in training a gundog. (You probably wouldn't "go abroad" to ask for obedience advice, because - mirabile dictu - the Brits hardly put any obedience beyond hup into their spaniels for many months; heeling is often done on-lead throughout the dog's entire life as they feel an "overly" obedient spaniel is one that's probably possessed of tamped down enthusiasm.)

But let's say that same 5-6 month old spaniel referenced earlier had got its obedience down - soft temperament or not wouldn't matter because of how the pup got the obedience down. The e-collar then becomes the dog's best friend. Because collar training is grounded in obedience - sit, heel, here. And now you, or shall we say the owner of this hypothetical spaniel, can join in with the big dogs and continue training up. Because the dog's been taught the rudiments of steadiness, it's returning to the whistle and it's heeling (forward or backward), all this largely coming about from the benefits of treat-based obedience.

So there's your free advice - all I can add to it is that you're lucky to have a mentor, if you've accepted him as such, who will keep it coming both from the voice of experience and field (and field trial) accomplishment.

MG

[SpringerDude]

Having any pup "trained" to do a task doesn't mean the pup will do it exactly right, every time. These things have to be practiced regularly as the dog matures and ages to keep the reaction to the command crisp.

For instance, I see guys tell their labs to heel (when the handler is standing still) and the dog will back up to sit beside them. How do you achieve this? I don't want to go out and buy another book or dvd - is there any free literature on the web for this?

First you teach the dog to heel next to you. When the dog learns and react's correctly to the command, then you can heel the dog. Then you move backwards, forwards, or to the side, and call the dog to heel. You are basically realigning the dog for a retrieve.

You can take four bumpers and toss one at each point on a compass, North, South, East and West. Do this in short grass with white bumpers so the dog can see the bumper well. Keep dog on lead and at heel. let pup get used to going straight to the bumper you send it for and deliver back to you. As pup picks up the bumpers, you turn and line pup up for the next retrieve. don't try to complicate this drill. Send pup to the one he is focused on. When pup is doing this drill quickly and easily, then you can start changing things a little. Line pup up for a bumper, then say No Bird, and turn pup to go to another one. You might want to turn a half turn so pup is going the opposite direction for the retrieve. Only do one "No Bird" then send on the next bumper you line up for. When pup is doing this well after several days, then start doing 2 No birds and send pup on the 3rd bumper you line up on. Having pup on lead will keep pup from going too soon and you will still have total control over when pup makes a retrieve.

However, you do need to have pup returning very cleanly on single marks and have good delivery to hand or the above drill will not go smoothly. You do not want to be fussing at the dog when you are trying to teach the drill. Keep it easy for pup to do the right thing.

With a pup, it is all about having fun - in the right way. There is a balance between exact obedience to every command and getting to enjoy life and be a puppy. The pup will always want to be enjoying life, so the handler has all the control over when commands are given. If you hover over pup and "bug" him, then he will soon ignore you. If you give commands that you can not enforce, then you are teaching pup that he can get away with not obeying.

[Sharon]

"Quick question guys. It's common knowledge that obedience has to be solid before moving on to more daunting tasks in the field. However, when looking for information on obedience from a gun dog's point of view it seems scarce. I have a few books I bought and even they skim over obedience very quickly and most detail is on retrieving, casting, quartering and birds of course. Anyone have a good reference for solid obedience work? For instance, I see guys tell their labs to heel (when the handler is standing still) and the dog will back up to sit beside them. How do you achieve this? I don't want to go out and buy another book or dvd - is there any free literature on the web for this?" quote CDN_Cocker



Obedience needed depends on whether the dog lives in the house or ina kennel outside.I taught what I needed.

What I insist on:

1/ Leave it! - needed in the house and in the field

2/ heel - I want my dogs to heel into the field and back , not rip out of the car and take off.

3/ Wait!- When I open that kennel door in the back of the van , I want the dog to wait until told to heel, and not jump out in front of a car on a country road.
My dogs wait at the kitchen/garage door until called to load up into the van. I live on a 4 lane road so don't want them wandering around , waiting to load up.
In the house, I go up and down the stairs first, they wait at the bottom until released.

4/ Come! - immediately

5/ I teach "Yohhhhh" for turning in the field in case a dog is heading for a road etc.. - + e collar.

AT 11and 7 years of age they know the plan.

edit: Forgot to say I also teach"out!" They like to try to join me in the tub.

[polmaise]

S1030001.JPG

All sounds good on a Precis'
I just have all of mine to want to be with me!..without telling them no matter the gate .
http://www.polmaisegundogs.co.uk/

[ezzy333]

I think obedience is a primary concern for a retriever but not of great importance for a pointing dog. I rate independence much higher than obedience for a young dog. I can work on obedience for the rest of the dogs life but am limited in giving a pup the opportunity to think on its own and figure out where and how to hunt.

Ezzy

[RayGubernat]

Go get yourself a Smith wonder lead and use it to do heel/whoa drills in the yard.

I use a cheapie version of the wonder lead( a pigging string) and do the heel who drills after the manner of Paul Long.

Basically you place the loop of the waxed string(an inverted P) over the dog's head, up close to their ears. You have just a bit of tension on the rope so that it will not slip over the dog's head, but no pressure on the neck.

You step off and walk, holding rope close to your body so that if the dog's nose stays by your knee, there is no real pressure on the dog's neck. If the dog forges ahead, lags back, goes left or right, the loop closes and the dog chokes itself. The dog learns...very quickly...that the heel position with its nose by your knee... is a very good place to be.

The method calls for walking about 30 ft(10-12 steps) and stopping. Repeat, repeat, repeat. As the dog gets better t staying on your knee, make left turns and right turns. before very long the dog will be heeling like a pro. The key is the waxed rope. it acts like a spring. If the dog does it wrong the loop closes down, but the instant the dog does it right, the springy loop opens right back up, removing the pressure.

Once the dog is standing quietly by your side, you can introduce the sit/stay if you wish, for your flusher or retriever. I don't train my pointers to sit. Once the dog is doing the sit/stay reliably, you can introduce the verbal or upraised hand "whoa" and walk away from the dog...starting of course with a single step and progressing from there.

I do this with all my pointers and they do a pretty decent heel/whoa.

The other thing I do is here or come. For this I use two checkcords, a training partner and a bag of treats. Dogis in middle, each trainer with end of a cord in hand and bag of treats. Call dog to trainer A. If dog comes to trainer A it gets a pat and a treat and gets restrained. if it does not, trainer A reels it in, gives it a pat and a treat and restrains it. Trainer B commands here or come. Same story, ending in a pat a treat and being restrained. In very short order the dog will be flying from one person to the other...on command... for its rewards.

Both of these drills are short duration, 5-10 minutes with multiple repetitions. Both can be used on puppies as young as 16 weeks.

That is about 80% of the obedience my dogs get. They stop when I holler whoa and they come when I call...most of the time. That is good enough for me.

How's that for cheap advice??

RayG

PS. When you are ready to introduce your youngster to quartering, I got a dandy way to do that with treats and a checkcord. Same price as the above.

[Trekmoor]

As said earlier most British spaniel trainers don't do formal obedience much with younger pups but we do try to get pups to want to engage with us in play. Here are two short film clips of a British gundog trainer "training" a 13 weeks old springer pup and a young cocker pup.
There is quite a lot of "training" going on here .....but the pups don't know that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY0nKEGyjPY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vuQlmamm-k

Bill T.

[gotpointers]

An AKC canine good citizen class would give any person and any dog a good foundation to build on.

[SpringerDude]

Bill,

Liked the video's for the pups. Thanks for posting.

[SCT]

I think obedience is a primary concern for a retriever but not of great importance for a pointing dog. I rate independence much higher than obedience for a young dog. I can work on obedience for the rest of the dogs life but am limited in giving a pup the opportunity to think on its own and figure out where and how to hunt.

Ezzy

+1,

I let puppies be puppies and learn about birds, before I teach them much, obedience. But, I'm a pointer guy and my dogs can be pretty wild. Never had a problem with lack of independence

[CDN_Cocker]

Having a flusher - running wild isn't really an option.

[RayGubernat]

As said earlier most British spaniel trainers don't do formal obedience much with younger pups but we do try to get pups to want to engage with us in play. Here are two short film clips of a British gundog trainer "training" a 13 weeks old springer pup and a young cocker pup.
There is quite a lot of "training" going on here .....but the pups don't know that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY0nKEGyjPY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vuQlmamm-k

Bill T.

Bill -

Those videos were awesome!

If someone wanted to know how to describe play training, how to maintain a positive attitude to encourage and reward a puppy...those videos say it very clearly.

Thank you for sharing that.

RayG

[deseeker]

As said earlier most British spaniel trainers don't do formal obedience much with younger pups but we do try to get pups to want to engage with us in play. Here are two short film clips of a British gundog trainer "training" a 13 weeks old springer pup and a young cocker pup.
There is quite a lot of "training" going on here .....but the pups don't know that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY0nKEGyjPY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vuQlmamm-k

Bill T.

Bill -

Those videos were awesome!

If someone wanted to know how to describe play training, how to maintain a positive attitude to encourage and reward a puppy...those videos say it very clearly.

Thank you for sharing that.

RayG

+1

[AZ Brittany Guy]

My definition of obedience is very simple:

Come to me

Go with me

Stand still (or sit still, hup now for flushers / retreivers)

Every pointing dog method incorporates these 3 basics.

What more do you want (obedience wise) out of your bird dog?

[smittty]

if you have a well breed dog that's all you have to teach is obedience.... what else is there???? he'll get the bird thing himself your job is just putting a little obedience behind him

[birddogger]

As said earlier most British spaniel trainers don't do formal obedience much with younger pups but we do try to get pups to want to engage with us in play. Here are two short film clips of a British gundog trainer "training" a 13 weeks old springer pup and a young cocker pup.
There is quite a lot of "training" going on here .....but the pups don't know that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY0nKEGyjPY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vuQlmamm-k

Bill T.

Loved it!

Thanks,
Charlie

[AZ Brittany Guy]

I should add other things that come through "osmosis" or through the normal course of owing a bird dog.

kennel up

wait until I go through a door or gate first.

don't beg at the dinner table.

don't jump up on people

etc...etc...

Just normal "good citizen" stuff.

What you allow a dog to do, you teach a dog to do.