what to do???

hoppingsp · Post by **hoppingsp** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:24 pm

So I have a gsp that is now little over a yr old loves to hunt has good nose and is what I consider to be pretty smart and great companion. However something has gone wrong with the gun. Trainer was shooting around her last year and said did not know she had problem. We have had some really bad storms here and she is scared of them don't know if played a part or not.anyway she back at trainer to work on this and he says she seems to be fine when chasing but any time she not active she doesn't like it. She doesn't bolt or anything just kinda puts head down or kinda hides away. Anyway I am debating on what to do with her, she might accept it eventually or just get worse Trainer thinks I need to give her chance to come out of it however iam wondering how many of u have gotten a dog over this issue and never had this problem arise later.basically I can cut my losses with her or spend another 1500 trying to fix. Over next 3 months. I do not have a lot of time for training or would do myself. Trainer did offer fees of 750 if can't fix while in Canada and if resolved full price . Just kinda looking for input of some of your thoughts.

ruffbritt4 · Post by **ruffbritt4** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:38 pm

I think, and i could be wrong, the dog made a connection with the scary thunder and the gun. Like i said i may be wrong. Give her time, and maybe she will associate gun with fun.

hoppingsp · Post by **hoppingsp** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:45 pm

I think that as well just based on the loud noise just kinda on fence with her, try to fix and take chance on problem coming back or just start over with another dog. I would think if ever made a good association would be fine but I am no trainer and never faced this situation is there anyone that specializes in gun shyness? I hate to turn back on her she is great at everything else. But I know u can also throw good money after bad.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:34 pm

There is an audio tape that used to be around. Not sure what the name is but I have a buddy who swears by it.

hoppingsp · Post by **hoppingsp** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:35 am

I have tried to play a thunderstorm tape to kinda recondition her but did not or has it worked she knows diff. Between real storm and the surround sound. Hast to be static or barametric pressure or something else with storm. Anyway if that is kind of tape u are referring to I did try one. If gun shy fix tape am very interested would be most helpful and appreciated if u or he could remember the name of it. So I could find it if possible.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:51 am

Had a dog years ago that thunder scared so bad we kept sedative pills for. Didn't have to be loud, just thunder. Matter of fact we could tell a storm was coming by the way she would act. Guns never bothered her. We never got Tiny around much thunder till we'd been hunting her a couple years though either. Your dog is just a year old, I'd re-introduce the gun.

roaniecowpony · Post by **roaniecowpony** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:04 am

Great companion, good nose, loves to hunt and you'd consider getting rid of him? You're tough. Why not cosider hunting that dog with a 410? I hunt everything from dove to wild roosters with one.

hoppingsp · Post by **hoppingsp** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:53 am

Not considering getting rid of her just stopping her training. Believe me don't want to pull the plug on her, my heart tells me to go ahead with her but my gut says stop. As far as hunting her with 410 that would be fine with me but so far can't get her past a 32 Cal blank and been with trainer last month to work on this. This is reason would like to know if anyone specializes in this type of training.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:03 am

I suggest that you get the dog to a trainer that specializes in gunshys. Not all do.

If there is a bird dog in there, it needs to be brought out and the best way to do that is to kill birds for the dog. Bird goes up, gun goes off bird in mouth.

if that does not work, nothing else will either...most likely.

Many years ago I made a young dog gunshy through stupidity. I hunted that dog with others for a full season. Shen stayed by my side and would not range out, so I took her through some of the nastiest briers and tangles I could find, hoping to get her to move out on her own. Wore out a pair of good boots and a pair of leather faced hunting pants in the process. Near the end of the season, the other dogs pointed and my Dad shot the bird. Cindy bolted from my side, got to the bird before the others, scooped it up and brought it all the way back to me. She ventured out from me a few yards and later that morning found and pointed a bird, which I shot. She retrieved it and was "cured" from, that time. This dog had more desire in her little body than the next three dogs, and was as tough as pig iron, so what I was able to do with her probably would not work with today's dogs.

Get some barn pigeons. Put one in a trap and have another in your hand. When the dog scents the trap, launch the bird and let the dog chase. Fire the gun, break the neck of the bird in your hand and toss it, so it flaps around. Let the dog get it and encourage the dog to bring it. Gunfire= bird in mouth is the connection you are trying to make for the dog. Bird in mouth is what a bird dog lives for so if gunfire gets the dog there, gunfire will become a good thing also. You might also feed the dog the bird's head. That can really torque some dogs up.

You may see for yourself whether this dog is worth messing with further.

FWIW I had a dog that was so afraid of thunder that it would hide under the sofa, desk, wherever. He could cram himself into some unbelievably tight spaces. That same dog was totally oblivious to shotgun fire. You could literally take the head off a sitting pheasant in front of one of this dog's points with a 12 gauge and he wouldn't even flinch. Just go retrieve it like nothing happened. I suggest that you totally ignore your dog's reaction to thunder. It is related, but irrelevant. Do not react to it.

RayG

mask · Post by **mask** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:49 am

I have seen dogs that do not like the sharp sound of a blank or rifle. A shotgun never bothered so you might steer away from the blanks or muffle the sound in some way. As some have said show the dog a bird for every shot.

hoppingsp · Post by **hoppingsp** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:53 am

Thanks for all replies got off phone with trainer and am going to go ahead with training he thinks once she's up north and chasing a lot she will get over this right now when chasing she does not mind the shot but. If done around kennel and not active she does. I don't think he specializes so much in this area but I do think he knows what he is doing. We will see I guess i will know for sure by first of October when they come back if he was successful. I Just hope and pray she does not get worse.

S&J gsp · Post by **S&J gsp** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:12 pm

well I'm a little late but I don't see much of a problem the dog in my avatar pic is scared of thunder and wireworks and a rifle, but he LOVES the sight of a shotgun because a shotgun means a bird in his mouth

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:36 pm

I have noticed that thunder, gunshots and fireworks effect my dogs differently. I have two that are fine with gun shots but freak out with fireworks..no matter how distant or muffled. I have another that is afraid of both thunder and fireworks but not gun fire. I think that is because of the association of gunfire with birds.

You may need a good Pro to work through the challenge.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:48 pm

Jon Hann at Perfection Kennels in MO handles a lot of gunshy cases. He did wonders with our dog.

hoppingsp · Post by **hoppingsp** » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:58 pm

Well I guess come October If I still have a problem with this dog I might give Jon a call he is quite a way from me however I do think I am going to order their video series for future dogs. Everyone on here gives good reviews of the series. I would like to breed my dog and keep a pup off her in future and be more hands on next go around.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:06 am

hoppingsp wrote:he says she seems to be fine when chasing but any time she not active she doesn't like it.

Not quite sure what you mean by "not active". Do you mean while the dog is in the kennel? Or, are you talking about while there is no bird present but the dog is hunting in the field?

RayGubernat wrote:Fire the gun, break the neck of the bird in your hand and toss it, so it flaps around. Let the dog get it and encourage the dog to bring it. Gunfire= bird in mouth is the connection you are trying to make for the dog.

This is similar to the last stage in my re-introduction to gunfire program. But I use a clipped wing pigeon instead of breaking the bird's neck. Two advantages, the dog knows the bird is obviously still alive and I can re-use the pigeon over and over. Ray, as usual, is absolutely correct in the "gunfire=bird in mouth" association the dog needs to make.

hoppingsp · Post by **hoppingsp** » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:02 am

I am.assuming not active either in kennel or just not chasing a bird not real sure to be honest. I have been talking with trainer so much over past few days cant remember exact circumstances. All I can say about situation is he told me that while chasing birds she doesnt pay attention to the shot, however if just standing around could mean on point or not actively chasing or in kennel before feeding or what have you, she kinda hides her head or jumps a bit. I am assuming this is why he thinks can get het over this once up north because there will be alot more opportunities for her to chase and keep making better associations with gun.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:58 pm

Fwiw I never allow shooting around my dogs unless their attention is focused on a bird even well broke older dogs

As Ray mentioned that connection is critical

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:41 pm

The "not active" part is curious to me. I don't think that any trainer worth his salt would fire off an indiscriminate round near a dog with questionable tolerance to gunfire, not even as a test. If gunfire does not bother the dog while it chases, then Ray has already told you what needs to happen. Shotgunblast=birdinmouth. Ray gave you a way to get started, I added the clipped wing suggestion and would also add: start with a lower volume sound such as a partner shooting at significant distance as you throw the bird or record the sound of a gunshot and replay it on a low volume. Mix in a few full flight birds that the shooter stays quiet on and the dog will quite readily put 2 and 2 together. Gradually increase the volume until you are right on top of the dog with a live round through the shotgun. By the way, if you go the recording route, it is a good idea to have the shotgun present during the training. The secret on this one is to work it every day until you get the results you want.

hoppingsp · Post by **hoppingsp** » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:36 pm

I agree completely with rays assesmment and your backing of what he has said however the dog was already at trainer to work on this, I just was looking for opinions on what to do as far as continue to work with dog or give up and start over with another pup. I know I have not provided very clearly the chain of events that has led up to this because I have not been thinking clearly past several days. I in no way fault trainer for this or question what he has or has not done because I am not there I cannot say exactly what is going on in the chain of events, but I can tell you past events that have led up to this problem. Last year when got dog back from trainer we had some very severe storms roll through my area and noticed in one of them that dog began to shake and tremble, anyway at time several of these storms rolled through over next couple of weeks. After things dried out a bit I finally got a chance to try her out at a local preserve. Dog ran off some steam and caught a ride back to me on the golfcart and was ready to hunt. She worked field nicely and fell down on point. She held beautifully until I and my son got to her I moved ahead of her and flushed bird for son the bird flew straight up like helicopter and before I thought about it son shot right over her. She flinched but after couple seconds tried to move her on to hunt again and she did was trying not to acknowledge shot over her head and let her hunt some more. So after few mins. Like 5-10 she fell down on point held just like supposed to well this time wanted to get her to chase and then try to shoot so released her and son shot. This time she stopped the chase and ran back to me. Did not shoot over or around her again. Have not shot around her since then last season did not want to make it worse and felt better to leave it to pro. Well few months ago me and dog were coming back from road trip and got caught in major hailstorm baseball size with nowhere to go windshield busted out sounded like thousand guns shooting at once just bad so she freaked about that one too.

hoppingsp · Post by **hoppingsp** » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:08 pm

Anyway I have spent time with her letting her keep up her prey drive and thought maybe after period of time passed when gun introduced again would be a bit easier on her. So this past few weeks trainer has been working on this and wanted to know if wanted to send her north. Long story a little shorter I sent her per his telling me she had made some progress and seemed to be fine while chasing so that is where I am. I do not know all details exactly just ones that have happened around me, and I know I have brought this on myself with her from lack of knowledge just hope it can be reversed. Thing is as pup and up until she left first go around she never showed signs of storm fear or gunfire I shot a cap gun from time she started feeding with never a flinch. Looking back might not have been right but never a hint of trouble just chowed down as usual. Anyway this is why I am in no position to think or believe that trainer should even be in question and I stand behind him 100% on what he says that is why when this adventure began I found the best I could afford and one that fit my philosophy of a bird dogs up bringing . And thank everyone for advice then and now. I do value everyones opinion on here and hope others can learn from my mistakes and misfortunes when they come about.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:56 pm

I have had a few dogs scared to death of thunderstorms and fireworks. None of them had any fear of the gun - it isn't the same fear, though I do believe if a dog is sound sensitive and was not properly intro'd to the gun then you will likely have issues.

To my dogs, and following the philosophy that I like when gun breaking a dog, a gunshot equals a dead bird - period. Every time there is a shot, there is a dead bird to retrieve. If it takes some live birds flying away at first - that's o.k. too. But every shot should equal a bird (and dead bird eventually). I've never subscribed to the philosophy that banging pans and shooting cap guns while a dog eats has any positive benefit to them when introducing a shotgun with a dead bird. I don't want them ignoring the sound - I want them anticipating the shot because they are wildly excited about the possibility of getting a dead bird in their mouth.

I know others believe in other philosophies - that is just mine.

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:34 am

You're being honest with yourself and your trainer. That's the first big step. Fixing a gun problem can be difficult, but as long as the dog maintains prey drive it can be done. I'd try ride it out with the trainer. Having confidence in his abilities is critical.

Nate

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:19 am

Personally, I am certain that gunshy dogs can be re-conditioned to accept gunfire no matter what caused the problem in the first place. My experience is that some get completely over it and some do not. I equate it to cancer. Sometimes the doctor gets it all, and sometimes they do not. Sometimes a person is in remission for years and then it crops up somewhere else. I suppose this post is a little late as you have already made the decision to send the dog with your trainer but, given the cost involved and the risk the training regimen might not work, it makes very little economic sense to "cure" a dog with gun problems. A very well bred puppy can be had for much less than $1500 dollars. That being said, I have a dog that was gunshy that I hunt with. I was already so emotionally attached to the dog that I did not want to start over. I also get calls on a fairly regular basis about re-introducing someone else's dog. So, in my final analysis, I would say that if you are committed to the dog then further training makes sense regardless of the expense. I would encourage you though, not to pass along the genetic and social traits that contributed to the situation you now find yourself in.

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:17 pm

whoadog wrote:I would encourage you though, not to pass along the genetic and social traits that contributed to the situation you now find yourself in.

Based on what exactly? Gun shyness? That's the result of a learned behavior, not a genetic default. There may be other good reasons not to breed her, but not that one.

Nate

hoppingsp · Post by **hoppingsp** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:49 pm

Have to agree with double barrel on this one as far as not breeding her based on gunshyness considering I have been the cause more than likely, however she has many good traits I cannot overlook such as strong prey drive, friendly disposition, intelligence, love of water, physically well fit with great shiny coat, good nose, no health problems that I am aware of geneticall up line. Etc. not saying that I will or wont breed her but if I do will be done responsibly and for my benefit to get couple of pups off her because of alot of properties she does posess that I like in a dog.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 5:38 pm

I would not buy a pup from a dog that exhibited gunshyness or sensitivity to loud noises. It can well be a "sound sensitivity" issue - which means you could end up with a litter of pups that cower and salivate and freak out during thunderstorms or fireworks. Yuck. Who wants to deal with that? There are way too many good dogs out there to breed one that has a fault that may or may not be passed on to further generations.

hoppingsp · Post by **hoppingsp** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:24 pm

Well I was not saying I would breed her was just saying possibility on down line. I would not sell a pup to someone if there were underlying issues apparent. My response was just based on gunshyness being my fault not hereditary. On another note there are plenty of examples I am sure of top notch bred dogs on paper whose offspring was not cut out for trialing or winning championships but make excellent hunting dogs and family pets. I think all u can really do is make an educated guess and see what happens. I might be wrong just my take on it.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:15 pm

RoostersMom wrote:I would not buy a pup from a dog that exhibited gunshyness or sensitivity to loud noises. It can well be a "sound sensitivity" issue - which means you could end up with a litter of pups that cower and salivate and freak out during thunderstorms or fireworks. Yuck. Who wants to deal with that? There are way too many good dogs out there to breed one that has a fault that may or may not be passed on to further generations.

This all sounds good till you start researching it. I have never seen a litter of gun shy pups and can find nothing that indicates it has ever happened. Same with "sensitivity" to loud noises. There are dogs that are less bold than others but those all come from the same litters also. IMO it will make little difference how a pup handles noise from a genetic stand point. I do think the female can have a slight effect on her pups as they grow up with her but that would be modest as best. And I have never seen where it had a thing to do with gun shyness.

Ezzy

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:15 pm

RoostersMom wrote:I would not buy a pup from a dog that exhibited gunshyness or sensitivity to loud noises. It can well be a "sound sensitivity" issue - which means you could end up with a litter of pups that cower and salivate and freak out during thunderstorms or fireworks. Yuck. Who wants to deal with that? There are way too many good dogs out there to breed one that has a fault that may or may not be passed on to further generations.

This all sounds good till you start researching it. I have never seen a litter of gun shy pups and can find nothing that indicates it has ever happened. Same with "sensitivity" to loud noises. There are dogs that are less bold than others but those all come from the same litters also. IMO it will make little difference how a pup handles noise from a genetic stand point. I do think the female can have a slight effect on her pups as they grow up with her but that would be modest as best. And I have never seen where it had a thing to do with gun shyness.

Ezzy

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:53 pm

I guess I don't follow this line of logic either. Are you saying that this is a learned behavior that will pass on to offspring? If the dog were apprehensive around birds it would be difficult to train, and may not ever become a bird dog. If it had a fear of people that would also make it difficult to train, but would likely be the result of a lack of proper socialization not a fault of the dog either. Not sure how anyone could ever conclude that this dog didn't learn to fear the sound of a gun and other loud noises. I can understand not wanting to breed a dog that is neurotic, but learned behavior is learned behavior.

Nate

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:56 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
RoostersMom wrote:I would not buy a pup from a dog that exhibited gunshyness or sensitivity to loud noises. It can well be a "sound sensitivity" issue - which means you could end up with a litter of pups that cower and salivate and freak out during thunderstorms or fireworks. Yuck. Who wants to deal with that? There are way too many good dogs out there to breed one that has a fault that may or may not be passed on to further generations.
This all sounds good till you start researching it. I have never seen a litter of gun shy pups and can find nothing that indicates it has ever happened. Same with "sensitivity" to loud noises. There are dogs that are less bold than others but those all come from the same litters also. IMO it will make little difference how a pup handles noise from a genetic stand point. I do think the female can have a slight effect on her pups as they grow up with her but that would be modest as best. And I have never seen where it had a thing to do with gun shyness.

Ezzy

Everything I have heard, read and know from personal experience is that gun shyness is man made.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:01 pm

I have seen what I believe to be female dogs that pass on some level of sound sensitivity to their offspring in person. Litters of beagles from a particular dog - 3 litters, all of them with more than the norm gunshy puppies to some extent.

I just wouldn't take that chance - there are too many other good dogs out there. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong, but I've seen 3 litters from this same dog that have turned out about 75% of the pups gunshy. So bad they had to give them to "couch potato" homes. This from a guy who has hunted and trained beagles for over 20 years - without this problem ever cropping up before with his other dogs.

I'm not saying that THIS dog is genetically predisposed to sound sensitivity - but I'm saying I wouldn't purchase a pup from a dog that is known to have sound sensitivity problems - if they don't have enough prey drive or bird interest to overcome a negative experience, then maybe that is the fault I'm selecting against. Just my personal opinion.

I'm not trying to be an argumentative a_ss, I do believe that most gunshyness is likely human induced, but I don't discount genetics to some extent.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:03 am

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:Based on what exactly? Gun shyness? That's the result of a learned behavior, not a genetic default.

Based primarily on the fact that we are talking about a bitch. This will be the puppies' primary example for looking at the world and all that is in it for the most formative period of the puppies' personality. As well, after decades of training all kinds of dogs, I do believe that there is a genetic component to dogs that are skittish in nature. I have no desire to turn this into a "gunshy is 100% man-made". I believe what I believe, you believe whatever you want. But, when we talk about responsible breeding, a responsible breeder does not use stock that exhibits serious faults. Would you breed a dog with dysplasia? Not responsibly. How about retinal atrophy? Probably not. One so aggressive that children or other dogs are not safe around it? My point is, a fault is a fault is a fault. Gun-shy is a deal-breaker for me even though it is one of my training specialities.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:06 am

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:Everything I have heard, read and know from personal experience is that gun shyness is man made.

Does this dog sound as if the problem is man-made? The accepted gunfire quite readily according to the OP. He noticed a problem not after gunfire, but after a thunderstorm. I agree that most cases are from poor introduction to the gun. But, in my experience there is more to it than that. This case is a perfect example.

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:20 am

ezzy333 wrote:I do think the female can have a slight effect on her pups as they grow up with her but that would be modest as best. And I have never seen where it had a thing to do with gun shyness.

I have seen the bitch be a major contributing factor to gunshyness. Specifics: Litter of 9 raised in the basement of a suburban home. Gunshy bitch. 5 puppies sold to hunters (including me). 4 were gunshy (including mine). Now, I know how to intro the gun. The first shot was with a starter pistol at about 50 yards in a heavy Kansas wind while the pup was occuppied. I was taking no chances with my personal gundog. She turned and looked at the shooter. I moved him out to about 100, got her wound up and tried again. She ran and hid under the deck. I spent the next 3 months curing her. Would not have bothered if she did not have "so many traits I liked". But, I will never breed her. I am 51 years old and have been around hunting dogs my entire life. My opinions on gunshy have changed recently given the experiences I have had re-introducing gunfire. I have had this conversation before on this website so this will be my last post on the subject on this thread. At one time I did believe that gunshy was completely the fault of the trainer. I no longer believe that. I am certain that early socialization from the bitch (thus my don't breed gunshy bitches philosophy) and perhaps some genetic component play a part. This may challenge mainstream hunting dog training philosophy but I am not worried about that. As long as people keep shying them, I've always got another revenue stream.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:59 am

I am curious how a bitch could influence the pups to be gun shy when she is in the kennel raising puppies. Take them all out in the field and let the pups see her run and hide when she hears a noise, then you may have a point. This is no difference than buying a pup out of good hunting stock that have never been trained to be steady. That has no bearing on the pups just as the bitch not knowing WHOA or any other trained command. Trained actions do not breed.

Ezzy

hoppingsp · Post by **hoppingsp** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:35 am

To be 100% accurate thunderstorm phobia never showed up until several months ago way after she was firsr introd to gun. I was shooting around her after about 2 months age. at a distance of about 75 yards while she was running around playing used a 22 pistol. And was using cap gun at house at feeding time. The storm phobia was never noticed until she reached about 4-6 months of age. After some very nasty storms that hit. So technically gun came first. How much difference this makes I dont :chain: know just want to clarify.

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:42 am

ezzy333 wrote:I am curious how a bitch could influence the pups to be gun shy when she is in the kennel raising puppies. Take them all out in the field and let the pups see her run and hide when she hears a noise, then you may have a point. This is no difference than buying a pup out of good hunting stock that have never been trained to be steady. That has no bearing on the pups just as the bitch not knowing WHOA or any other trained command. Trained actions do not breed.

Ezzy

+1

I knew we'd eventually find some common ground ezzy.

Trying to equate or compare hip dysplasia or any other physical defect to a learned behavior is crazy talk. I am interested however in the concept of the mental health condition of the bitch and passing on to her offspring. Bring some proof to the table, and you may have a leg to stand on. I've never bred dogs, but I have been around a few. Gunshy and otherwise. A genetic link to gunshyness seems impossible.

Nate

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:13 pm

hoppingsp wrote:. Trainer did offer fees of $750. if can't fix while in Canada and if resolved full price . Just kinda looking for input of some of your thoughts.

Hold on to that trainer - a person of real integrity.

hoppingsp · Post by **hoppingsp** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:01 pm

I agree sharon 100% was never a question of him just about whether or not others would continue with the dog. Trainer said he would go for it, so that is what I am doing. Believe me I talked with many trainers before he was chosen his record speaks for itself,.and finest folks anyone could ever hope to meet.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:09 pm

I may be way off base on this, but from my exerience over the years, I believe that gun shyness, even though almost always man made, happens with puppies/dogs that are already timid and need more precautions. I will probably get a lot of disagreements on this but I don't believe any bold, independant pup will be affected by a gunshot, regardless of how it is introdused. I still use "proper intro" just to play it safe but years ago, we just took them out and shot over the from day one and I have never had a gunshy dog. Now I am not talking about taking an army out and overwhelming him with gunfire, but just using a little common sense. JMO.

Charlie

Duckdog · Post by **Duckdog** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:40 pm

I agree, and a timid, skittish (gun shy) bitch can pass that behavior right to the pups. Whether it's learned or heriditary, I've seen it happen.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:38 pm

Duckdog wrote:I agree, and a timid, skittish (gun shy) bitch can pass that behavior right to the pups. Whether it's learned or heriditary, I've seen it happen.

Agreed.

Charlie

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:06 am

ezzy333 wrote:I am curious how a bitch could influence the pups to be gun shy when she is in the kennel raising puppies.

Bitch is nursing pups. Loud sound occurs (maybe mom drops a pan on the floor beside her or a car backfires on the street). Bitch trembles in fear. Puppies feel the bitch's angst and learn loud sound is something bad. My thinking is that when this occurs just after hearing is opening up for the pups then they almost instantly have a predisposition to aversion to loud sound.

DoubleBarrel GunDogs wrote:Trying to equate or compare hip dysplasia or any other physical defect to a learned behavior is crazy talk.

What I am talking about is selectively breeding an animal with a known major fault. I also mentioned agression besides dysplasia and retinal atrophy. Is gunshy a learned response? Absolutely. I agree 100% with that statement. How it is sometimes learned is where my questioning convention lies. Is agression a learned response? Well, if shy is learned then so must be aggression. You can't have it both ways. Either there is some heredity in both, or, both are learned. I return to my question: Would you knowingly breed a dog that is dangerously aggressive and feel responsible doing so? I would not. Thus my assertion, I would not breed a gunshy dog, especially a bitch.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:44 am

My only comment is that loud noises and gun shots are completely different. I have never understood why people think a dog doesn't know the difference between two sticks being slapped together and a gun shot. They know the difference between thunder and a gun shot, the difference between fire works and a gun shot, and the difference between a pan being dropped on the floor and a gunshot. I have never found a correlation between different sounds. I do know a lot of dogs that are not gun shy in the least that do not like rifle or pistol fire, thunder, and fireworks. That proves they know the difference to me.

Ezzy

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:35 pm

ezzy333 wrote: I have never understood why people think a dog doesn't know the difference between two sticks being slapped together and a gun shot

Transference of stimuli. They may know the difference between the sounds but that does not mean they can't respond similarly to sounds in the same decibel range. Pavlov's dogs salivating for the sound of the bell in reverse. Experience has taught me to be 100% positive that dogs will develop a positive reaction to a different sound than a gunshot and then transfer to acceptance of gunfire even when the dog was so shy it slunk away from the mere sight of a gun. That particular dog went from unhuntable to re-introduced to gun in only 2 1/2 weeks. I see no reason to believe that a negative reaction and transference could not take place.

hoppingsp · Post by **hoppingsp** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:50 pm

So whoa dog what u are saying is if negative stimuli is reintroduced in positive manner to correct said gunshyness and or storm phobia this is definitely conditioned behavior and said dog would be cured. Meaning rhis is all a conditioned response therefore if said dog did not react negatively towards pups then gunshyness or storm phobia not passed along because female did not react negatively while feeding pups therefore not genetic just learned. Is this right?? And if so fixing gunshyness could also result in a fix of storm phobia due to dog making correlation of sound?

hoppingsp · Post by **hoppingsp** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:09 pm

On lighter note drop a plate bowl fork or what have u at my house and the dogs come running to see what treat they are getting. I cannot open a cheese wrapper quietly enough for dogs not to be under my feet when I turn around. Dont know about the rest of you

whoadog · Post by **whoadog** » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:43 pm

If the dog is successfully re-introduced to gunfire, there would be less of a chance of conditioning the pups toward the same result. Yes, you are perhaps correct in following that logic. However, I am still not convinced that behavior in canines has no genetic component. I will not argue that there is, but I also will not argue against. It was not that many years ago that many people were lamenting "the hunt" being bred out of Irish Setters and Golden Retrievers. It takes very few generations to completely change the look of domestic livestock. My point is still this: A serious fault such as aggression or gunshy is not so very different than a physical fault such as dysplasia. Why take the chance? There are so many good, proven dogs out there to use for breeding. I can not see how it is responsible to breed a dog with faults.