Why do you Force Fetch?
Why do you Force Fetch?
Just in case there are dog trainers lurking here I thought I'd cast some food for thought.
1. Do you force fetch?
2. Why do you force fetch?
3. What do you hope to gain from force fetching?
4. How do you go about it?
EvanG
1. Do you force fetch?
2. Why do you force fetch?
3. What do you hope to gain from force fetching?
4. How do you go about it?
EvanG
“Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love.”
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
I run GSPs and in the National Championship one of my dogs had a great run and they were not able to kill on course. They set up a call back situation. The bird lifted, gunner shot and advised that the bird was not down. Just after he said this the bird did go down and the judge instructed to send the dog. The bird wasn't dead and when the dog went to mouth it the bird slapped her in the face with its wings. My dog dropped the bird and would not pick it up. First time ever to not retrieve. She was disqualified. After this I had several professionals and seasoned amateurs come and talk to me telling me that I should force break. Since then I have done it to all my dogs and have had success with it. I start off with an ear pinch up on a work bench and switch to an e-collar. How long it takes has depended on the dog. If I was to stop trialing and just hunt I would still force fetch. After the initial introduction my dogs seem to like it and I have several that will jump up on the work bench when ever they are free in the garage. Wagging their tails the whole time!
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
My pup loved to retrieve, but when it came to freshly killed birds she didn't want to pick them up. Then I noticed a lot of dogs mouthing the birds so I omitted retrieving from training until I could get that under control. I started with Dobbs Force Fetch video. Teaching hold. Once we got that down, the rest fell into place pretty quickly. When I started pile drives I found the smart fetch program to be more detailed. I'm not sure that I've done everything right, but I do have a dog that's very consistent in bringing me what I send her for and she will do it without seeing me throw. I like to hide bumpers in a field and then send her out to find them. One thing about FF is that it is a great obedience refresher as it uses Here, Heel & whoa as well as your send command.
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Why do you Force Fetch?
1. YesEvanG wrote:Just in case there are dog trainers lurking here I thought I'd cast some food for thought.
1. Do you force fetch?
2. Why do you force fetch?
3. What do you hope to gain from force fetching?
4. How do you go about it?
EvanG
2. To become more in tune with the dog and gain their respect
3. Respect and a better foundation for retrieving
4. Slow but fast enough to not allow for boredom
JD
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
1. Yes. Even if the dog is a natural. I still do it.EvanG wrote:Just in case there are dog trainers lurking here I thought I'd cast some food for thought.
1. Do you force fetch?
2. Why do you force fetch?
3. What do you hope to gain from force fetching?
4. How do you go about it?
EvanG
2. For consistant retrieves.Sucks to enter a test and have a dog refuse a retrieve. Also, as a team building exercise.
3. Strong bond between us. A mutual respect, and I am serious, it is mutual.
4. Both dogs I have done were different. I am no pro at it, but we have got it done and my dogs are reliable.
http://www.huntwithamunster.com
Dealer for Dogtra, Ruff Tuff and Mud River Need a product, just ask.
Dealer for Dogtra, Ruff Tuff and Mud River Need a product, just ask.
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
1. Do you force fetch?
Only when I find it absolutely necessary, I'm a pointing dog guy
2. Why do you force fetch?
The most common reason is hardmouth.
3. What do you hope to gain from force fetching?
A dog that will retrieve game in a manner fit for human consumption.
4. How do you go about it?
I used to use a table and a toe hitch and worked my way through the progression (buck forced in mouth til he reaches for it, lower and lower until on the table, down the table and repeated on the ground). But, after a long discussion on clicker training on this forum I realized that it might be adapted to force fetch without the coerciveness I was taught by an old-time trainer. Low and behold it worked. That's how i will do it from now on.
Only when I find it absolutely necessary, I'm a pointing dog guy
2. Why do you force fetch?
The most common reason is hardmouth.
3. What do you hope to gain from force fetching?
A dog that will retrieve game in a manner fit for human consumption.
4. How do you go about it?
I used to use a table and a toe hitch and worked my way through the progression (buck forced in mouth til he reaches for it, lower and lower until on the table, down the table and repeated on the ground). But, after a long discussion on clicker training on this forum I realized that it might be adapted to force fetch without the coerciveness I was taught by an old-time trainer. Low and behold it worked. That's how i will do it from now on.
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
Excellent, thoughtful replies!Munster wrote:1. Yes. Even if the dog is a natural. I still do it.
2. For consistant retrieves.Sucks to enter a test and have a dog refuse a retrieve. Also, as a team building exercise.
3. Strong bond between us. A mutual respect, and I am serious, it is mutual.
4. Both dogs I have done were different. I am no pro at it, but we have got it done and my dogs are reliable.
EvanG
“Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love.”
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
It's hard to respond accurately without being direct. All these responses reflect misconceptions about force fetch that are far too common, are antiquated, and woefully misguided. I don't mean this in a personal way, but here's what I mean.whoadog wrote:1. Do you force fetch?
Only when I find it absolutely necessary, I'm a pointing dog guy
2. Why do you force fetch?
The most common reason is hardmouth.
3. What do you hope to gain from force fetching?
A dog that will retrieve game in a manner fit for human consumption.
4. How do you go about it?
I used to use a table and a toe hitch and worked my way through the progression (buck forced in mouth til he reaches for it, lower and lower until on the table, down the table and repeated on the ground). But, after a long discussion on clicker training on this forum I realized that it might be adapted to force fetch without the coerciveness I was taught by an old-time trainer. Low and behold it worked. That's how i will do it from now on.
1. Only when absolutely necessary: No training is necessary unless the individual has decided on personal requirements of a dog that dictate training. Force fetch isn't (or shouldn't) be viewed as a remedy for a defective dog. Appropriately applied, FF is insurance, not only against failures, but insurance of reliability and stability.
2. Hard mouth can sometimes be successfully addressed with FF techniques, but would more likely have been preempted by FF in the first place. See the difference?
3. This one comes closest to being accurate, but misses important points. Pressure conditioning for stability, well-groomed mouth habits, and so on are just a start.
4. If FF is attempted with so-called "positive-only" (clicker-type) methods the trainer is only kidding himself. Force fetch requires force in order to achieve its core benefits. But remember, the word "force" does not imply an amount.
EvanG
“Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love.”
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
I'm not a trainer so I won't respond to your 1-4 questions, although I would like to offer one of my own:
Please forgive me if I'm disturbing this thread
with this in mind, do you find some dogs require different amounts of force during different training sessions? I'm asking because on any given task, my dog seems to respond better to small amounts of force some days, but then on other days she seems to respond better to more force. I'm probably misreading the dog, or maybe it's just because she's a moody femaleEvanG wrote: the word "force" does not imply an amount.
EvanG
Please forgive me if I'm disturbing this thread
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
Not at all. Your question is welcome. I've found every one of them to require their own level of pressure, and that most of them actually require a rather small amount. One reason for that is because I approach it as a conditioning process, rather than using pressure to simply force a response. All questions are welcome.chevyrulz wrote:I'm not a trainer so I won't respond to your 1-4 questions, although I would like to offer one of my own:
with this in mind, do you find some dogs require different amounts of force during different training sessions? I'm asking because on any given task, my dog seems to respond better to small amounts of force some days, but then on other days she seems to respond better to more force. I'm probably misreading the dog, or maybe it's just because she's a moody femaleEvanG wrote: the word "force" does not imply an amount.
EvanG
Please forgive me if I'm disturbing this thread
EvanG
“Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love.”
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
I didn't say that I did not force the dog, only that I adapted a clicker program to suit my needs. I'd also say that for an owner training their personal gundog, and let's be clear I'm talking pointing breeds here which is my area of expertixe, that force-fetch to establish respect between dog and owner is a poor substitute for early and proper socialization of the dog. By the time I get to retrieving with the dogs I train the relationship is already built. My business is puppy training pointing breeds of gundogs and I do it very well.EvanG wrote:4. If FF is attempted with so-called "positive-only" (clicker-type) methods the trainer is only kidding himself. Force fetch requires force in order to achieve its core benefits. But remember, the word "force" does not imply an amount.
Sure I understand the difference. I will admit to not being an expert on FF here. But, you asked why, and I told you. Antiquated? Maybe. Meeting my customers needs? Absolutely! Please realize that I tend to get hardcases that usually have bad habits that need breaking. I did not start the problem, people are asking me to fix it. The only time I consider force-fetch is when someone has a dog that is eating birds. I usually try to refer that work to other people but sometimes dog owners are persuasive (read that willing to pay me more than it's worth) because they trust me. What we are usually looking at is not a complete trained retrieve that will win in trials but simply a good solid "hold". For that, the clicker training works better than any other method of coersive training IMHO.EvanG wrote:Hard mouth can sometimes be successfully addressed with FF techniques, but would more likely have been preempted by FF in the first place. See the difference?
By the way, your posting a response that says "excellent, thoughtful replies" to a post that agrees implicitly with what you have written and then taking my post apart without asking why I wrote what I wrote is hard not to take personally. Jumping to conclusions about why some one does what they do is asking for trouble.
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
I do not train F.F. and I never find any need to . I just use or develop a pups natural retrieve instinct, so far doing this has worked out fine with springer spaniels, cocker spaniels, labs, brittanies, pointers , G.S.P.'s and a vizsla. At 13 months old my present Brittany pup is already retrieving pheasant runners.
Bill T.
Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
Of course I never said you didn't. I imagine you do. But that isn't an element of the discussion. I didn't initiate this discussion to debate whether or not everyone who trains dogs should force fetch, or to play verbal tennis over the various breed-specific notions. The questions asked were clearly aimed at those who do force fetch, i.e. the very first one; "Do you force fetch"? In brief, I'm not at all interested in the arguments of those who do not FF. That would be a different collection of discussions. This one is focused on force fetch, and is addressed clearly to those who use it.whoadog wrote:My business is puppy training pointing breeds of gundogs and I do it very well.
Sure I understand the difference. I will admit to not being an expert on FF here.[/quote]I gladly submit to the notion that there are things you are an expert at. There is nothing personal in this. It's a discussion of a process. Force fetch has long been a special area of expertise in my work, and I've used that skill and experience to advance the process. For trainers who use force fetch I'm interested in helping them to better understand it and its components and purposes.EvanG wrote:Hard mouth can sometimes be successfully addressed with FF techniques, but would more likely have been preempted by FF in the first place. See the difference?
EvanG
“Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love.”
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
I understand. But, you cherry-picked pieces of my post to suit your arguments and assumptions without asking me to expand my answers. I recognize that you are at a minimum the "local authority" on FF. Believe it or not, I have read more than one book on FF and have had hands on training with a retriever trainer with a national championship under his belt. I understand the concepts. You asked if there were any professionals who FF. I do FF. I get paid to train dogs, albeit it is not my primary income, so I assumed you were including trainers such as me in the discussion. If not, after this reply I will bow out.EvanG wrote: Force fetch has long been a special area of expertise in my work, and I've used that skill and experience to advance the process. For trainers who use force fetch I'm interested in helping them to better understand it and its components and purposes.
Let me answer your questions again, this time with a better understanding of what you are actually asking:
1. Do you force fetch? Yes, about once a year.
2. Why do you force fetch? I only do it when it is insisted upon by a stubborn client(and subsequently paid for through the nose because I do not enjoy it) who will not accept a referral. There are others close by that this is their area of expertise and I do all I can to see that they do the work. So why don't I just refuse all FF work? I live in a small market with a customer base that is shrinking. Referrals from other clients is how I most often gain new clients. By outright refusing someone's buddy, I sometimes run the risk of losing two clients instead of losing just one. So, market conditions at this point in my career dictate what I sometimes do.
3. What do you hope to gain from force fetching? To fix a problem that was created by someone else's inept training and retain clientele.
4. How do you go about it? I follow a traditional progressive program starting out on a 16' table built specifically for FF about 15 years ago. When I began FF I used a toe hitch but have since graduated to an ecollar for the force part and have also recently incorporated some clicker work to my process. This has improved my results dramatically. Why? I believe because the dogs' can read my displeasure for the work I am doing and the clicker gives them a better idea that they have accomplished the task I am asking them to do. I know some of this does not fit your concepts of what FF should be. But it is also reality for many dogs and many dog trainers. Some of us don't get to start at square one with the animals we work with. The bad habits are already established and we are asked to fix them. Not only that, but the work usually does not need to be polished. Remember I work primarily with hunting dogs and my clientele quite often do not even recognize what "well-groomed mouth habits" are. Once again, I do not use FF to establish a relationship with a dog. I have other methods I believe work much earlier and fit my program much better. I believe that dog training starts even before the litter is whelped. I believe that training actually starts with the careful selection of a bitch and dog, especially the bitch by the way, for breeding. Why in the world would I wait until the dog is mature enough to start FF before I established a solid relationship in training when I believe good training starts before the pup is even born ? My replies may be antiquated and not excellent in the manner of Munster's, but they are definitely not without thought.
- gundogguy
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Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
Further explane "retrieving Pheasant runners"?Trekmoor wrote:I do not train F.F. and I never find any need to . I just use or develop a pups natural retrieve instinct, so far doing this has worked out fine with springer spaniels, cocker spaniels, labs, brittanies, pointers , G.S.P.'s and a vizsla. At 13 months old my present Brittany pup is already retrieving pheasant runners.
Bill T.
I think I know the UK definition of a pheasant runner, In the US it might mean something else, If my spaniel takes a runner it was before the shot was fired after the shot was fired I might say my dog retrieved a cripple.
I'm 100% in favor of LGBT - Liberty, Guns, Bacon and Trump.
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
In Britain the words "retrieving pheasant runners" or any kind of runners, would be taken to mean the dog has found and retrieved a bird still able to run from where it fell when shot . The other meaning of "runners" here can mean a bird that has ran from the point but if that is what was meant then that is what is said.
My Brittany finds, catches and retrieves wounded pheasants (runners) is what I meant.
Bill T.
My Brittany finds, catches and retrieves wounded pheasants (runners) is what I meant.
Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !
- AZ Brittany Guy
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- Location: Arizona
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
Whoadog, It sounds like your are a Pro. Do you have a website that I can read a little about your credentials and achievements?whoadog wrote:I understand. But, you cherry-picked pieces of my post to suit your arguments and assumptions without asking me to expand my answers. I recognize that you are at a minimum the "local authority" on FF. Believe it or not, I have read more than one book on FF and have had hands on training with a retriever trainer with a national championship under his belt. I understand the concepts. You asked if there were any professionals who FF. I do FF. I get paid to train dogs, albeit it is not my primary income, so I assumed you were including trainers such as me in the discussion. If not, after this reply I will bow out.EvanG wrote: Force fetch has long been a special area of expertise in my work, and I've used that skill and experience to advance the process. For trainers who use force fetch I'm interested in helping them to better understand it and its components and purposes.
Let me answer your questions again, this time with a better understanding of what you are actually asking:
1. Do you force fetch? Yes, about once a year.
2. Why do you force fetch? I only do it when it is insisted upon by a stubborn client(and subsequently paid for through the nose because I do not enjoy it) who will not accept a referral. There are others close by that this is their area of expertise and I do all I can to see that they do the work. So why don't I just refuse all FF work? I live in a small market with a customer base that is shrinking. Referrals from other clients is how I most often gain new clients. By outright refusing someone's buddy, I sometimes run the risk of losing two clients instead of losing just one. So, market conditions at this point in my career dictate what I sometimes do.
3. What do you hope to gain from force fetching? To fix a problem that was created by someone else's inept training and retain clientele.
4. How do you go about it? I follow a traditional progressive program starting out on a 16' table built specifically for FF about 15 years ago. When I began FF I used a toe hitch but have since graduated to an ecollar for the force part and have also recently incorporated some clicker work to my process. This has improved my results dramatically. Why? I believe because the dogs' can read my displeasure for the work I am doing and the clicker gives them a better idea that they have accomplished the task I am asking them to do. I know some of this does not fit your concepts of what FF should be. But it is also reality for many dogs and many dog trainers. Some of us don't get to start at square one with the animals we work with. The bad habits are already established and we are asked to fix them. Not only that, but the work usually does not need to be polished. Remember I work primarily with hunting dogs and my clientele quite often do not even recognize what "well-groomed mouth habits" are. Once again, I do not use FF to establish a relationship with a dog. I have other methods I believe work much earlier and fit my program much better. I believe that dog training starts even before the litter is whelped. I believe that training actually starts with the careful selection of a bitch and dog, especiallcy the bitch by the way, for breeding. Why in the world would I wait until the dog is mature enough to start FF before I established a solid relationship in training when I believe good training starts before the pup is even born ? My replies may be antiquated and not excellent in the manner of Munster's, but they are definitely not without thought.
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
Yes I do have a website. However, I have been discouraged from posting it on this forum in the past and will respect the moderator's request on that matter. However, I will update my profile so you can find it if you are interested.
- AZ Brittany Guy
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Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
Great! Thanks.whoadog wrote:Yes I do have a website. However, I have been discouraged from posting it on this forum in the past and will respect the moderator's request on that matter. However, I will update my profile so you can find it if you are interested.
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
Guilty as charged. I apologize.whoadog wrote:I understand. But, you cherry-picked pieces of my post to suit your arguments and assumptions without asking me to expand my answers.EvanG wrote: Force fetch has long been a special area of expertise in my work, and I've used that skill and experience to advance the process. For trainers who use force fetch I'm interested in helping them to better understand it and its components and purposes.
In actuality I’m an international authority on it, and on retriever training in general, including the 2005 Australian National Champion. I don’t often mention this sort of thing, but I have offered respect for your professional status. I haven’t spent 35+ years at this for nothing.whoadog wrote: I recognize that you are at a minimum the "local authority" on FF.
I would prefer that, having done well in seeking out good information that you keep reading. Look what you have learned in your experience. Imagine what you might know next year? That’s the greatest thing about dog training. The learning never ends.whoadog wrote: Believe it or not, I have read more than one book on FF and have had hands on training with a retriever trainer with a national championship under his belt. I understand the concepts. You asked if there were any professionals who FF. I do FF. I get paid to train dogs, albeit it is not my primary income, so I assumed you were including trainers such as me in the discussion. If not, after this reply I will bow out.
I’m cherry picking again, but I aim to make an important point. If such a dog were properly force fetched in the first place trainers wouldn’t have to use it as a cure. Modern force fetch is not designed as a cure, even though it can be applied as one. It is designed as a foundational process that ensures a lifetime of proper behavior and stability.whoadog wrote: Let me answer your questions again, this time with a better understanding of what you are actually asking:
2. Why do you force fetch? I only do it when it is insisted upon by a stubborn client(and subsequently paid for through the nose because I do not enjoy it) who will not accept a referral
And that is an example of my point. Having established a trained baseline for a performance standard from the beginning, those problems would not exist.whoadog wrote: 3. What do you hope to gain from force fetching? To fix a problem that was created by someone else's inept training and retain clientele.
Sounds like an effective way. Believe or not, there are better ones. Thanks for your detailed reply. I appreciated it.whoadog wrote: 4. How do you go about it? I follow a traditional progressive program starting out on a 16' table built specifically for FF about 15 years ago. When I began FF I used a toe hitch but have since graduated to an ecollar for the force part and have also recently incorporated some clicker work to my process. This has improved my results dramatically. Why? I believe because the dogs' can read my displeasure for the work I am doing and the clicker gives them a better idea that they have accomplished the task I am asking them to do. I know some of this does not fit your concepts of what FF should be. But it is also reality for many dogs and many dog trainers. Some of us don't get to start at square one with the animals we work with. The bad habits are already established and we are asked to fix them. Not only that, but the work usually does not need to be polished. Remember I work primarily with hunting dogs and my clientele quite often do not even recognize what "well-groomed mouth habits" are. Once again, I do not use FF to establish a relationship with a dog. I have other methods I believe work much earlier and fit my program much better. I believe that dog training starts even before the litter is whelped. I believe that training actually starts with the careful selection of a bitch and dog, especially the bitch by the way, for breeding. Why in the world would I wait until the dog is mature enough to start FF before I established a solid relationship in training when I believe good training starts before the pup is even born ? My replies may be antiquated and not excellent in the manner of Munster's, but they are definitely not without thought.
EvanG
“Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love.”
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
A year ago I'd never heard of Force Fetch. Admittedly the name itself is somewhat negative and I wasn't sure I wanted to do such a thing, but after going through the force fetch program with my dog I have to say that I would do it again in a heart beat with a new dog. It's a great bonding experience as well as teaching them the fundamentals of retrieve. Besides that it's a great winter project. Even when the snow is piling up around the house, the temps are dropping and the wind is howling, I can still work on the elements of Force Fetch. I think I prefer the term Trained Retrieve over force fetch.
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
I thoroughly agree with you here. Too often I gets dogs with established patterns of bad behavior. Why didn't you just say that in the first place?EvanG wrote:And that is an example of my point. Having established a trained baseline for a performance standard from the beginning, those problems would not exist.
I am sure there are, and believe it or not, your work is on my reading list. But, I am basically working two jobs right now and I have not found the time. I agree that dog training is a life-long learning process. I also have found that seeing a process from some one else's perspective can not only teach me new techniques but is a great way to improve my own. In fact I make my primary income from that very thing. Now, you seem to have taken offense to my reference to you as a "local authority" and were quick to correct me. How do you think I feel that you set up a thread to prove a point and in the process make me look like I have no idea what I'm doing in the least? My apologies for insulting you if I have by the slightest questioning of your credentials.EvanG wrote:Sounds like an effective way. Believe or not, there are better ones.
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
Because I started this thread seeking opinions from trainers who force fetch, not to preach it. I hope for this discussion to reach a point at which we can discuss rationale more deeply.whoadog wrote:I thoroughly agree with you here. Too often I gets dogs with established patterns of bad behavior. Why didn't you just say that in the first place?EvanG wrote:And that is an example of my point. Having established a trained baseline for a performance standard from the beginning, those problems would not exist.
Great! I think you'll find it detailed, and a contrast to what is often an approach to inflict enough pain on a dog that it finally submits. My approach is one of conditioning to pressure, which is usually rather minimal.EvanG wrote:Sounds like an effective way. Believe or not, there are better ones.
I am sure there are, and believe it or not, your work is on my reading list.
Been there and done that. Dog training is a passionate pursuit, and it takes a lot of work and sacrifice to get established.whoadog wrote:But, I am basically working two jobs right now and I have not found the time. I agree that dog training is a life-long learning process. I also have found that seeing a process from some one else's perspective can not only teach me new techniques but is a great way to improve my own. In fact I make my primary income from that very thing. Now, you seem to have taken offense to my reference to you as a "local authority" and were quick to correct me. How do you think I feel that you set up a thread to prove a point and in the process make me look like I have no idea what I'm doing in the least?
No problem. By participating on open forums I recognize that I open myself to scrutiny, and even to attack. That's okay, as my ideas will stand scrutiny. http://www.evan-graham.net/Testimonials ... ments.htmlwhoadog wrote: My apologies for insulting you if I have by the slightest questioning of your credentials.
Here's hoping we can proceed with a useful discussion.
EvanG
“Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love.”
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
- AZ Brittany Guy
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1417
- Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:00 pm
- Location: Arizona
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
I once heard a story about an old Pointer Field Trialer, Clive Morton who used to "force fetch" all of his dogs. He wasn't much of a hunter nor did his field trials require a retrieve. He claimed that it took his dogs to a different level and he could put his dogs through a gate at 1/2 a mile.
Some day I will muster the determination to start the process and see it through to the end. I understand it takes a lot of perseverance.
Some day I will muster the determination to start the process and see it through to the end. I understand it takes a lot of perseverance.
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
More just patience than than mere persistence. It's not the brutal battle it's sometimes said to be. Actually, it's a bonding experience.AZ Brittany Guy wrote:I once heard a story about an old Pointer Field Trialer, Clive Morton who used to "force fetch" all of his dogs. He wasn't much of a hunter nor did his field trials require a retrieve. He claimed that it took his dogs to a different level and he could put his dogs through a gate at 1/2 a mile.
Some day I will muster the determination to start the process and see it through to the end. I understand it takes a lot of perseverance.
EvanG
“Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love.”
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
Evan,
I just looked at your profile and realized you are nearly a neighbor. Next time some one asks for ff I'll send them your way if that's ok with you.
I just looked at your profile and realized you are nearly a neighbor. Next time some one asks for ff I'll send them your way if that's ok with you.
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
Thanks. That's kind of you. But I no longer take dogs in for training. My entire career is now focused on training trainers.
Seminars all across the US & Canada
3 books
15 DVDs
Personal Consulting
Keeps an old man busy!! But perhaps we can get together sometime and do a bit of training?
EvanG
Seminars all across the US & Canada
3 books
15 DVDs
Personal Consulting
Keeps an old man busy!! But perhaps we can get together sometime and do a bit of training?
EvanG
Last edited by EvanG on Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love.”
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
- gundogguy
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 980
- Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:22 pm
- Location: southern Michiganistan
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
EvanG wrote:Thanks. That's kind of you. But I no longer take dogs in for training. My entire career is not focused on training trainers.
Seminars all across the US & Canada
3 books
15 DVDs
Personal Consulting
Keeps an old man busy!! But perhaps we can get together sometime and do a bit of training?
EvanG
"My entire career isNOW focused on training trainers." E. Graham
I highly recommend Evan's seminars and workshops. For any one that is interested in a proven system of teaching the dog.
I'm 100% in favor of LGBT - Liberty, Guns, Bacon and Trump.
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
Thanks! Correction noted and made!gundogguy wrote:"My entire career isNOW focused on training trainers." E. Graham
I highly recommend Evan's seminars and workshops. For any one that is interested in a proven system of teaching the dog.
EvanG
“Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love.”
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
- kninebirddog
- GDF Premier Member!
- Posts: 7846
- Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 12:45 am
- Location: Coolidge AZ
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
"When I hear somebody talk about a horse or cow being stupid, I figure its a sure sign that the animal has outfoxed them." Tom Dorrance
If you feel like you are banging your head against the wall, try using the door.
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
T
That would be interesting! I moved away from retrievers years ago although I do have a Lab I rescued from the needle in my kennel. I just might show up at a seminar sometime, but I'll pay my money just like everyone else to watch you work. Do you know Jay Stine at Moon Creek Kennels in Emporia?EvanG wrote:But perhaps we can get together sometime and do a bit of training?
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
Evan, I like the reliable retrieve that a force broke dog gives. I will not have another dog that is not force broke. My past dogs were sent out for this process. I am currently training a pointer that I would like to force break myself. After reviewing a couple different methods I have decided to follow your program. It seems that your program puts less pressure on the dogs than others. I also like the detailed instruction of your program and the progressive, easy to follow steps. I am looking forward to starting the process.
You could live without a dog, but it would not be worthwhile.
Re: Why do you Force Fetch?
Thanks "Murph". You're in good company!madmurph wrote:Evan, I like the reliable retrieve that a force broke dog gives. I will not have another dog that is not force broke. My past dogs were sent out for this process. I am currently training a pointer that I would like to force break myself. After reviewing a couple different methods I have decided to follow your program. It seems that your program puts less pressure on the dogs than others. I also like the detailed instruction of your program and the progressive, easy to follow steps. I am looking forward to starting the process.
EvanG
“Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love.”
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum