Training Help for A City Bird Dog

[ColeS]

Hey Guys,

I hope I don't seem to ramble on but I have a few questions for you bird hunting vets out there(I'm only 22). I am a new member to your forum, but I have been reading a lot of your posts since I bought a bird dog. I have an 8 month old Brittany that, although very small, has a solid nose and bird drive.

I might be crazy for for getting a bird dog when our wild bird population is plummeting, but it has been a blast getting to train her.

I live in KC and hunt in south-central Kansas on my grandfather's farm (2,500 acres). It sounds like a bird hunting paradise right? Wong. We have very few wild bird left.

Being such an integral time in my dogs training (puppyhood), I have ran into a few training issues...

-I cannot find any flight conditioned quail this time of year (within an hour drive of KC).
- I do not live in an area to house pigeons or my own covey (city boy).
- I really can't afford to spend $200 a weekend at a preserve.

Any suggestions on training tactics that help get by pup into birds for training purposes?

Lately, this is how I have been training my pup (This will probably give some of you dog trainers a heart-attack)...

I know that everyone has an opinion about "wind on a string" and it has been a big "no no" for dogs much over 4 months. I have came up with a training technique since I live in a city that allows my dog to "hunt" on a weekly basis.

I have a small 20 acre piece of CRP/Hay ground that backs up to my yard. I have fashioned a weighted wing to a fishing pole that I use to act as a live bird. I go out at night (because there is no light left when I get home from work, and it forces her to use only her nose to hunt) and let her begin running around looking for the bird/wing. I then throw the wing 50-60 yards when she is not looking, away from where she is working, until she finally points it. I then state whoa and walk up behind her (hopefully) before a butt touch to flush. The nice thing about this style of training is that I can "flush" the bird if she lunges before I get to her and I always know where the wing is. I don't have to buy birds or a pricey bird launcher.

The one training bridge I am having a hard time crossing is her ability to recognize that the flush only ends positively when I shoot the bird. She is not gun shy, but when we actually hunt she thinks when a bird flushes it comes back to me (because I have to dodge the weighted wing on a string every time i pull it back lol)

How would you critique this training technique, mindful of my living situation?

Any suggestions, tips, and tricks are highly welcome! If any of your live in the KC area and want to train together, I have a small 80 acre piece of ground we can hunt flight conditioned birds on (if you know where to get them).

Thanks,

ColeS

[RoostersMom]

Cole,

I have to say, there are a TON of bird dog clubs in the KC area. I mean a whole bunch of them. A Brittany club that is very active, NSTRA games all over. Field trials almost every weekend during the season at the Reed Area in KC. Two active Quail Forever Chapters and a very active PF Chapter. The BHU guys from Maryville and Kansas City are VERY active www.birdhuntersunited.com.

There will be a Quail Forever Hunting Dog Challenge in late February in conjunction with the Vizsla walking field trial at the Reed Area. Get your dog out to that area every weekend, they have a solid management strategy and several wild bird coveys on the area. For sure bring the dog out there on Sunday evenings after the field trials have run on the weekends or Monday mornings.

[campgsp]

Coles
I don't mean to sound like a jag. But the only way to make a bird dog is with birds.
You back up to a hay field so building a coop and keeping homers should be no problem.
I live in town where keeping of pigeons isn't tolerated but my neighbors are cool, love watching me work my dogs and don't mind my pigeons.
You should have no problem doing the same.

Without birds that fly away your not going to get anywhere in making your dog better. All the obeidience training and wing training in the world will never compensate for live bird contact.

Im sure you have fire lanes near by. Use them to work your dog. Join a club like roostermom suggests. People there can help hands on.
Buy perfect start perfect finish dvd set to get you on a program and follow it though.

I hunt wild birds I don't train on them. And it make little difference imo. But birds are the key for success.

[DonF]

I would not recommend doing what your doing. But, on the other hand what your doing is better than doing nothing by a long shot! There are many people that live in NYC that keep pigeon's, they find a way. A friend of mine from Bend, Gertie on here, before she got her loft trapped pigeons as she needed. I suspect you only need them on weekends? Days off? I think it would be better to go out and do yard work with your dog in the dark. Not that the dog can't see what your doing, it can, but you can't see what your doing. I trained my first pointing dog in Alaska. Lots of room to train but no loft for birds. Went to a warehouse in Wasilla and got permission to catch some pigeons. Managed to get only two. With two birds I could go out and plant two birds, learn how, and get them go. Couple days later go pick them up again. Finally got a third bird and pulled it's flight feather's. That one bird had more dog's trained on it than you would believe. Never got flushed but we'd just go pick it up and re-plant it. Now that surely wasn't the best but working my way through my first dog and a few other's through their first dog, it got the job done. When she was doing well I started her on grouse behind the house. She was surprised when a bird actually flushed and that lasted one bird. Got a bunch of grouse with that dog and over the years, more than my share of chukar, quail, huns and pheasant. No more telling us what you don't have, need to know what you have! Keep going and in the end it will work. The time your spending with your dog count's for a lot!

[Nutmeg247]

As for pigeons, I'd add that for myself, I've so far not had great luck with trapping or catching them, and haven't yet been able to make a strong domestic case for keeping homers. But, certainly here and I would guess around KC, there are several places where you can get feral pigeons. If you want to go that route, try calling some feed stores, or maybe find some kids with access to pigeons to catch them. $10 can get you a good day (or two) of training that way.

[fuzznut]

like your gumption....but- I trained a whole lotta dogs on my measly 20 acres. Where I lived there isn't much land left, so everyone would come to my place and work birds. Started out many years ago catching pigeons under bridges and they would live in a small cage in our garage. Then moved on to a small quail pen..hold maybe 10 birds. Use them right and you can keep them a long time.

Have to agree with the rest.. find a club and join up! Good luck, and have fun

[ColeS]

Thanks for all of the input guys! I will do my best to see if I can get a pigeon coupe going (even though I dont own the land I work my dog on). I really need to see about joining a club. I appreciate all of the good info Roostermom. I will see if I can join a club soon!

[rinker]

At this time of year I do not have access to wild birds, most of the guys that raise birds are sold out, and I will not fly my pigeons because of the hawks. So, I am pretty much in the same situation that you are. I do not work with birds every time that I take my dogs out. This time of year, I run dogs and work on their handling, and reinforce some basic yard work. In another six weeks or so the woodcocks will come through, and I can start flying pigeons again, so we will go back to bird work then.

[RayGubernat]

I lived in the 'burbs for over twenty years on a 100X 125' ft. lot and managed to train several dogs for hunting and a couple for field trialing. Some of the folks looked at me a little strange when I would road dogs, on foot, around the subdivision. I would do birdwork on state grounds once a week, usually on weekends and do yardwork and roading during the week. I would have liked to do more on weekdays, but if a puppy or derby dog needed it, I would take a quick ride in the evening, after supper, to an undeveloped area, do a couple pigeons with a blank gun and then quit. Sometimes less is more actually.

Now I have 10 acres, and have managed to train a dog to an AFC from a puppy. You have twice that available to you. BTW, Fuzznut has developed more than a few REALLY nice fuzzyfaced pointers. I got beat by one of hers one time actually.

Sooooo...yes you can. If I can, you can.

You can do a whole lot with pigeons and remote release traps. Yes they are expensive, but when you are working by yourself, they are invaluable. I bought two traps and that was all I ever needed. If you can find a source for feral birds or catch them yourself, you can keep them in a relatively small cage area for a two weeks or more and they will fly just fine. With one dog you only need maybe a half dozen birds at any one time.

One great thing about pigeons is that they fly away and do not land on the ground, so, generally, dogs cannot catch a healthy pigeon. The other great thing about pigeons is that if you screw up and because of that, the dog decides it does not want to mess with pigeons anymore, all is not lost. Unless of course you want to hunt pigeons.

Good luck to you. Have fun.

RayG

[DonF]

A favorite thing about pigeons is just what Ray say's. They fly away and won't land on the ground. A few years ago I got into homer's but keep some ferals too. Been several time's when I popped homer's they actually did land back on the ground right by the trap! And a number of them I put under manual traps I turn over with my foot, just sit there and then walk around a bit before they fly, I was stunned! My ferals have never done that to me. Once they are loose they adios the h*ll on out of here! I have never started a dog on homer's since I got them. Squirt and Bodie run on them now and I kind of like the ones that pop up and sit right back down. They temp the guy's awful hard. Stormy will be started on ferals! Pigeon's are the best training bird there is. They mostly leave the ground, they go back so you can use them over and over, feral's are free if you find them and learn to catch them; best done in the dark with a flashlight and long handle net. And if you invest in remote traps, you can make them act like wild birds, wild birds that co-operate with your training plan!

Farm raised birds have all sort's of problem's and are best left to finished dogs. Wild bird just don't accommodate your training methods well. The dog's learn from them, when you can find them. And they have this annoying habit of acting just like a wild bird before the dog is ready for a wild bird! Once your dog is steady and liking to hunt, nothing replace's a wild bird, when you can find them!

[gonehuntin']

The biggest failure of any hunting dog is a total lack of acceptable obedience. If they'll come when called and stop when commanded, you can hunt them. Given time, birds, and experience they'll develop into hunting dogs.

I live right in town (small town) and keep pigeons and no one ever says a word. Are you sure a small loft is not an option?

[ColeS]

I will try to start small and see if I can get the pigeons to work. They seem like they are hardier than keeping quail. What is the longest you guys go without working your dog on live birds? Do you see an negative impact in regards to the length of time?

[Sharon]

"I do not live in an area to house pigeons or my own covey (city boy)." quote

I've always lived in the big city and have trained several bird dogs to be successful. No need for pigeons now , but I kept 6 or so a week in a dog crate in the garage.( My husband got used to it.) If you only keep them a week , they still flew well. Went to the small animal auction every Sat. for several months with a new pup ; birds cost less that $2.00 a bird, depending on how many dog trainers were there. That's a pretty cheap training price. I like my pigeons to fly hard away during training , so didn't have to worry about keeping them longer than a week. If you really want to do it, it can always be done.( Kept them on an apt. balcony once.)

"I have a small 20 acre piece of CRP/Hay ground that backs up to my yard." That's a lot more than I ever had.

[CDN_Cocker]

I live in the city and do the same as Sharon. I buy 4-6 at a time and keep em in a pet crate for a week or so. If there's a will, you'll find a way

[roaniecowpony]

I'm a city dweller as well. I trap pigeons at the parks and markets around town. I used to keep them for weeks at at time. A little water, cracked corn, and grit was all that was needed. Get yourself a good trap and learn where the pigeons are. They get wiley after you catch some at each location. So you need to find new flocks.

[aulrich]

I too live in a city, you can sometimes find birds in weird places. Where I live there are numerous designated off-leash areas. And lots of time there are sides of river valley that are too steep to develop and as luck would have it the one by my house has a hand full of pheasants and Hungarian partridge. Also look for Duck, un limited , Pheasant forever, quail unlimited, or local fish and game sites. Typically they have some sort of public access and since they are typically managed to be hot spots for birds chance go up that you will find them.

[Meller]

ColeS
I live southeast of Sedalia; if you would want to come down, I would be happy to help you with your Brittney,I have birds and a place to train.

[TonyS]

Find a feed store that sells pigeons. I live less than a mile from Disneyland. They cost me $3 each but are invaluable. I keep them overnight in a portable cage. They either escape (when the dog forgets whoa) or they get shot.

No problem.