natural retrieve

[ibbowhunting]

what tips can you give me about enhancing a natural retrieve in a young pup, I've been doing a few retrieves with my young pup (six month old Brittany) on a check cord with no pressure, he seems to really like to chase it down and picks it up and I get him to bring it to me, my question is how do you get a pup to hold on to the object instead of play or chew on it, I'm looking for low pressure tips on get a pup to hold the object once he has brought it back to me instead of playing with it, I understand he is still young and not looking to force him into anything yet, Btw im really happy with his desire to retrieve which my older female lacks.

[DonF]

keep not putting pressure on him. When he get's the ball, call him and ease him back to you. If he spits it on the ground, don't worry about it right now but stop when he does. Leaving him wanting another. Chewing is what a pup does. Don't try to rip the object out of his mouth. Let him hold it just a bit then get a hold of it and roll it down toward the lower jaw and out as you give the release command. Your only gonna get so much at six months. What are you throwing for him to fetch? I'm using a firm tennis ball. Probably your gonna have some pup's chew on it no matter what. Except it for now just don't let it go on a lot then fix it when he grows up. More than likely he'll fix it on his own st some point.

[Trekmoor]

One way of getting what you want might be to have the pup do his playing right on top of you so sit down on a low seat or on a cushion or kneel down on the grass. When he is right in against your chest with the retrieve article praise him but use a calm voice , your pup already does retrieve so an excited tone of voice is not needed. Keep calmly talking to him and "gentling" him with your hands until he calms down and then gently take the retrieve article from him using a command word to "give." For such an excitable pup I would probably add a sitting delivery into the retrieve sequence but to begin with this would be done as a simple recall and sit in front with no retrieve involved. That exercise would also be done using a calm voice and non -exciting movements from me.

Make sure no member of your family is unknowingly playing with the pup using toys etc. or all your efforts will count for nothing.

Keen retrievers need a calm, slow voice or very little voice, not so keen retrievers need a more excitable voice tone.

P.S. I have edited this to add.... if you did not use a check-cord would the pup return to you or would it take the retrieve article away to play or chew on it somewhere else ?
Bill T.

[ibbowhunting]

You said kneel in the grass, hahahaha ,I haven't seen grass since November, most the time he will bring the object in my direction if I walk away from him ,then I just get ahold of the checkcord and bring him into me, other times if we are facing each other I give the cord a couple of tugs and he gets it to close to me, I've used Dokken dead fowl dummies, canvas dummies with pheasant feathers on it, plastic dummies, and a tennis ball type material shape like a dummy, frozen quail, I like to toss different items just to get him use to picking up more then one type and size item, I don't teach sit, some say it can lead to sitting on whoa or on point when the dog is under pressure,

Thanks for your input thus far

[BellaSpinone]

Cut up a hot dog. Give pup a treat for delivering to hand.

[Trekmoor]

I train GSP's , vizsla's and Britanny's. If I have trained for a sit present like my present brit and the vizsla do then I do not find they sit while pointing but then I don't "Whoa train" pointing dogs . I train steadiness on point so gradually and over several months that I never need to train "Whoa."

You may have to get inventive to achieve a no fuss delivery using "natural" retrieve methods. I don't ever train F.F. so over the years I have had to "get inventive." I don't use check-cords for retrieving, they limit distance too much and sometimes distance plus, maybe, a small degree of difficulty in the pup finding the dummy is the key to getting a good delivery .... strange as that may sound.

Dogs inclined to mess about with retrieves under pressure from check-cords sometimes, if there is no "pressure" make every effort to get back to me as quickly as they can if the retrieve isn't done at check-cord distances. I stretch out the retrieve distance to 30 or more yards then either move away fast as soon as the pup has picked it up or, more usually, since I'm not too good at moving fast nowadays , I hide myself behind a bush or a tree as soon as the pup picks the retrieve article and let the pup find me.
I'd like to know if the pup would return to you or run about with the retrieve article if it was not wearing a check-cord.

I'm sorry that I cannot give a certain "cure" for your problem .Nothing works for certain when "natural retrieve" problems crop up, you have to get inventive and suit what you do to the pup's own likes and dislikes.
Training a clickered retrieve would work for certain but I am not nearly knowledgeable enough to tell you all the ins and outs of that !

Sorry about suggesting you kneel on the grass , I'd forgotten that America has had snow this winter while we had to learn to swim ! :roll:

My own Brittany pup , now 14-15 months old was not very keen on retrieving as a young pup. With her it was a case of continually training the retrieve only when she was in the mood to retrieve and of continually , sometimes two or three times per day, changing the retrieve article to prevent her from becoming bored. It worked but it took months. She has just finished her first shooting season and has now retrieved dead and still alive, pheasants, partridge, ducks and a woodcock from land and from in and over water. It all took time but I got there and so will you.





Bill T.

[ibbowhunting]

The checkcord goes on the dog along with ecollar that is not turned on, anytime we got out to train (so far mostly playtime) we do longer retrieves then the check cord, and tossed into 2 to 3 feet of snow tests the dog some, seems to carry the object well without chewing or play with, just play with it alittle when picking it up and after he made it to me, he will carry the object around while following me around the yard, Btw I kneeled into the snow today to see if that would help

[Trekmoor]

I would be interested to see some ideas from other folk on this subject. Part of the usefulness of forums is to be able to get a variety of suggestions and ideas on subjects like this that may help the O.P.
It is difficult to give really good advice when you cannot see the dog or it's interaction with it's trainer but I think we should try to.

Bill T.

[gundogguy]

I would be interested to see some ideas from other folk on this subject. Part of the usefulness of forums is to be able to get a variety of suggestions and ideas on subjects like this that may help the O.P.
It is difficult to give really good advice when you cannot see the dog or it's interaction with it's trainer but I think we should try to.

Bill T.

The "Natural Retrieve" is probable the reason not many are weighing in.
I for one believe that retrieving is the handlers idea and not the dogs idea. I am a firm believer in a sequential force method of retrieving.
Not retrieving is not an option for my dog, it is mandatory, force fetch is the only way to achieve that certainty. Trialing Springers require it, without it you would not dare invest entry money and travel time at an event .
That being said I have developed some form of retrieving with many other breeds. in most cases the owners of the dogs are not willing or possibly able to pay for all the training time needed.
Here are 3 short vids of a young Brit that I work with this past fall on retrieving behaviors, where no force other than the check cord was used. These sessions usually proceeded a field run with birds and maybe some gunfire. Because she was not pointing I did not actually shoot any birds for her during time with me gunfire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPJBrXMLvQM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4vvFVn3fn0

The so called natural retrieve can be achieved, however it does takes some keen insights into the dogs mind set and where it is at. having succeed with proceeding dogs is always helpful when working with a new project dog as well

[gundogguy]

I would be interested to see some ideas from other folk on this subject. Part of the usefulness of forums is to be able to get a variety of suggestions and ideas on subjects like this that may help the O.P.
It is difficult to give really good advice when you cannot see the dog or it's interaction with it's trainer but I think we should try to.

Bill T.

The "Natural Retrieve" is probable the reason not many are weighing in.
I for one believe that retrieving is the handlers idea and not the dogs idea. I am a firm believer in a sequential force method of retrieving.
Not retrieving is not an option for my dog, it is mandatory, force fetch is the only way to achieve that certainty. Trialing Springers require it, without it you would not dare invest entry money and travel time at an event .
That being said I have developed some form of retrieving with many other breeds. in most cases the owners of the dogs are not willing or possibly able to pay for all the training time needed.
Here are 3 short vids of a young Brit that I work with this past fall on retrieving behaviors, where no force other than the check cord was used. These sessions usually proceeded a field run with birds and maybe some gunfire. Because she was not pointing I did not actually shoot any birds for her during time with me gunfire.





The so called natural retrieve can be achieved, however it does takes some keen insights into the dogs mind set and where it is at. having succeed with proceeding dogs is always helpful when working with a new project dog as well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8nCnPJCCIY

[EvanG]

The "Natural Retrieve" is probable the reason not many are weighing in.
I for one believe that retrieving is the handlers idea and not the dogs idea. I am a firm believer in a sequential force method of retrieving.

You, sir, are as right about this as it is possible to be. What dogs do "naturally" is chase after motion, honor their noses, and make little dogs. To make a retrieve requires a dog to go to a fetch object, pick it up, hold it, and bring to a handler - there to deliver it to hand as instructed. All but the first part are man's idea, not the dog's. A fair, sequential, thorough course of training will result in that task be reliably done, and enjoyed by both dog and man. Well done!

EvanG

[DonF]

Hey Bill. Love reading the post's from you guy's in that part of the world. Seem's you all train with older methods we have discarded here. Prove's they still work!

[slistoe]

I have hunted over a great many Brittanys in the uplands and a couple in the duck blind. None of them would "retrieve". They did not know what "fetch" meant, could care less about a canvass dummy (or any other thrown object past the fact that it was something moving). Yet I never had to pick up a bird or search for a cripple or a lost dead bird in thick cover etc. The dogs loved to find birds. The dogs loved to "get" their birds. The dogs would proudly pick up and carry their birds. The dogs would come to me when called. The dogs would willingly share with me any prize they had. All I had to do was allow them to do so.
I sort of think of that as "natural retrieve".

EvanG - every retriever I ever owned would go to AND pick up the object. Everything after that was my idea until the point in time where the dog decided it should be his idea as well.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

The checkcord goes on the dog along with ecollar that is not turned on, anytime we got out to train (so far mostly playtime) we do longer retrieves then the check cord, and tossed into 2 to 3 feet of snow tests the dog some, seems to carry the object well without chewing or play with, just play with it alittle when picking it up and after he made it to me, he will carry the object around while following me around the yard, Btw I kneeled into the snow today to see if that would help

If kneeling down to his elevation didn't do much for you, try lying down on the ground. He'll likely bring the object right to you.

There is no hurry to start the ff, but if you do intend to at some point do the process its important to get the pup on the bench or familiarize him with any training methods you'll be using (ie. wearing an e-collar). This way he'll be less likely to be apprehensive with future training. Building trust and confidence in the pup now will pay off in the future.

Nate

[Nutmeg247]

I would be interested to see some ideas from other folk on this subject. Part of the usefulness of forums is to be able to get a variety of suggestions and ideas on subjects like this that may help the O.P.
It is difficult to give really good advice when you cannot see the dog or it's interaction with it's trainer but I think we should try to.

Bill T.

The "Natural Retrieve" is probable the reason not many are weighing in.
I for one believe that retrieving is the handlers idea and not the dogs idea. I am a firm believer in a sequential force method of retrieving...

Probably fair. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oFO9Z0oHBA and http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/retrieve.html I found useful in training a retrieve. Probably you'd lump this as clicker training, though I usually don't use a clicker. In my dog's case, as he has lots of prey drive, but no real natural desire to bring things back, I'm not sure I'd call this a "natural" retrieve, though, so much as a low-pressure method. Working up towards no good hold = no reward and/or end of the activity are to me the key lessons in terms of the dog not playing with the article.

To be clear, I'm not opposed to force-fetching, and am not an experienced trainer, and am not saying that this is a "better" retrieve. Just responding to Bill T's mentions of other ways to do this. Interesting thread for me!

-J

[cjhills]

I have dogs that would not consider retrieving dummy which are great at retrieving to hand anything I shoot or they find. Some things are very nasty like rotten road kill. I think this is a natural retrieve. We do conditioned retrieve now. But I have no concern if a six month old puppy don't want to retrieve a dummy..........................Cj

[Trekmoor]

I too have found brittanies to be very natural retrievers of game . From time to time I need my dogs to retrieve blind retrieves however and it is mainly for the purpose of training blind retrieves that I take the time and the trouble to ensure my dogs will retrieve dummies. For 2/3 of the year I do not have and cannot shoot game in order to train for blind retrieves but I always have dummies.

I agree that the words "natural retrieve" as it applies to dummies is very often not entirely correct. Almost every dog I have ever trained has needed some degree of training done with them to ensure they will come straight back to hand with dummies. Most pups do some form of the very thing the O.P. is having trouble with. Pups return and play with the dummy near me or they run straight past me with it or they drop it or a combination of all three "faults."

Like F.F. and like the clicker retrieve , most pups do not do a "natural retrieve," they do a conditioned retrieve. I have to play my part in the conditioning correctly , making changes to suit the individual pup. On British gundog forums possibly almost half the questions from newcomers to gundog training or from those with not too much experience of retrieve training are questions about how to get the pup to deliver dummies without faffing about.

40 years or more ago I sweated blood and tears with a couple of the pups I was training so I have every sympathy for any other relatively inexperienced trainer who runs into problems when training the so called "natural retrieve."

Bill T.

[polmaise]

I just let them get on with it.
Then teach retrieve


Pretty soon they bring the fresh tripe right on in!

[ibbowhunting]

call it what you want, what im condidering natural retrieve is, retrieving without force fetch, for now I'm only a hunter and not a trialer, thats not say I don't want a well train dog, the only one that well notice most mistakes is me,

PS, I don't think we a problem, I was look for small tips to clean up the retrieve on my behalf by using repetition

[rlrobinhood]

great info.

[polmaise]

PS, I don't think we a problem, I was look for small tips to clean up the retrieve on my behalf by using repetition

I can understand what you want!..
If you understand that repetition of doing something can also teach what you don't want?
Does the dog?
.......
Perhaps , you should read up/understand what FF really is?

[birddogger]

I understand ib and nothing wrong with that IMO. You know what you want and all he has to do is please you. You have been given some good tips from Don, Bill t. and the rest. I would just add that even though you are not interested in ff, you could still benefit from Evan's "Smart fetch" dvd by just teaching a solid "hold" after the basics, such as a solid recall (the most important IMO) and sit or stand still, depending on what you prefer. A solid "hold" is accomplished without force and very little if any pressure.

Good luck, enjoy and keep it fun,
Charlie

[ibbowhunting]

maybe its just me but, I think there are a lot of dog the retrieve pretty well and have never been forced fetch, I have no problem with force fetch but never seen it done or have yet to attempt it myself, right now I can tell you my 2yr old could benefit from a force fetch program, but the pup in question seems to have enough desire to retrieve, I think he will retrieve birds with little or no pressure, he seems to like it,


ok I have a question why do some dogs without any formal training fetch a stick (object) over and over again for hours, I'm just trying to make since of why the dog bring the stick back if it only wants to chase it, to me thats is the answers the dog whats to chase it again and again

[Uplandish]

sometimes if they have weak retrieves you can bring in an older dog that is a good retriever and have him tied up and waiting right near by. if the pup drops the dummy half way or ignores it you can send the older dog out to snag it, this will make the pup think twice about letting go next time. just make sure you have complete control over the older dog.
If that works then just repeat until it becomes habit.

I convinced an older pointer to love retrieving just by letting him play keep away from my other dogs. I was on "his team" and would just hand him the dummy as the other dogs chased him around the yard, since he was a pointer he loved showing everyone how fast he was. Then I would call him in and he would race ahead to bring me the dummy before the other dogs could catch him. we did it enough times for him to realize I might take the dummy away but I would also give it right back, it really built his trust up in me and showed him retrieving could be a lot of fun. we eventually worked up to blind retrieves. granted it wasn't as easy as I just made it sound and probably wouldn't work for every dog, but he made some pretty impressive retrieves in his career and wouldn't touch a bumper or a bird when I first got him.

[Trekmoor]

ok I have a question why do some dogs without any formal training fetch a stick (object) over and over again for hours, I'm just trying to make since of why the dog bring the stick back if it only wants to chase it, to me thats is the answers the dog whats to chase it again and again

I think one of the reasons why a dog will do multiple retrieves with great enthusiasm for a child could be that the child puts no pressure on the dog .The child is playing a game for fun and the dog joins in for fun. When I have watched children and dogs playing retrieve games what usually happens is that the dog drops the article .....but the child does not mind that happening, the child has no expectations of what the pup "should" do. No pressure on the dog.

If the dog is a bit possessive of the article and if the child does not chase the dog to get it back then what seems to happen is that the dog eventually drops the article . The child picks it up and resumes throwing it.....eventually the dog realises that being possessive stops the "game" but that dropping the article allows the child to pick it up and to throw it again.

I don't know if I am right or wrong about this but that is what I think happens. It is a "no pressure" retrieve lacking only the delivery to hand part of the entire retrieve.

Bill T.

[DoubleBarrel GunDogs]

ok I have a question why do some dogs without any formal training fetch a stick (object) over and over again for hours, I'm just trying to make since of why the dog bring the stick back if it only wants to chase it, to me thats is the answers the dog whats to chase it again and again

I want to take a crack at this before reading the other responses, though I'm sure there are good ones already posted.

Dogs are much more motivated to please themselves than they are to please us. If it pleases a dog to chase a stick it will chase a stick. If it pleases a dog to fetch a stick it will. If the dog would rather chew on a bird than bring it to you that is what's likely to happen unless we intervene. No two dogs are alike and some breeds in particular are better natural retrievers. A Retriever can usually be trained to fetch with much less effort than a Pointer. Comparing dogs (even those from the same litter) is a common mistake.

Nate

[roaniecowpony]

What's the difference between "enhancing the natural retrieve" and FF training?

Techniques employed. Both are training. One employs a highly controlled environment and no kidding direct pressure and the other seems lack specific definition, (depending on who you talk to) other than "not using pain" as a pressure method.

[h&t]

interesting, thanks, Bill for sharing
FF is so prevalent today on NA continent, there's very little knowledge about other methods (as pointed already by another poster). And then there's the need to sell DVDs and books

[cjhills]

maybe its just me but, I think there are a lot of dog the retrieve pretty well and have never been forced fetch, I have no problem with force fetch but never seen it done or have yet to attempt it myself, right now I can tell you my 2yr old could benefit from a force fetch program, but the pup in question seems to have enough desire to retrieve, I think he will retrieve birds with little or no pressure, he seems to like it,


ok I have a question why do some dogs without any formal training fetch a stick (object) over and over again for hours, I'm just trying to make since of why the dog bring the stick back if it only wants to chase it, to me thats is the answers the dog whats to chase it again and again

ib:
I think you could very easily do a conditioned retrieve the way we do it. We use very little pressure after the first day or two and try to keep the dog happy and liking it. Since we are only wanting the dog to run out and pick up the bird as opposed to what retrievers people do it is quiet simple.I think I would do one on your older dog.
I think when you throw a dead quail and the little 6 week old puppy runs and gets it and brings it to you the first time I would call that natural.
GSPCMN is having a training day At Four Brooks Wildlife area south of Onamia late March. If you would like to come don and hang out we woukld be happy to see you. cost is very minimal. If you would like more info PM. Hopefully some o the snow will be gone and the temperature will be above Zero. We might be able to leave our fish house up there all summer. Cj

[whoadog]

To the OP, I use an "alley" for pups such as yours. I intenionally built my kennels with a 4' walk-way between them and the fence of my fenced training area. One end of the alley is blocked. I sit in the open end and toss whatever the dog happens to like to chase down the alley. He goes and gets it but can only really run in one direction, right towards me. I scoop him up when he gets to me, scratch his ears, tell him what a good boy he is, have him release, put him down and do it all over again and all to the tune of 5 or 6 other dogs barking their heads off for their turn. With the other dogs present, most pups will not drop what they consider to be "theirs". They tend not to chew it if I have their paws off the ground. I've used the hallway in the house for very young puppies. It is a "natural" way to get a retrieve without even the benefit of a checkcord. As he gets better and better, I would as some others suggested teach him to sit but not initially in conjunction with the retrieve. Have him sit on recall. Once he is conditioned to do that, transferring it to the retrieve should be almost automatic.

gundogguy wrote:
The "Natural Retrieve" is probable the reason not many are weighing in.
I for one believe that retrieving is the handlers idea and not the dogs idea. I am a firm believer in a sequential force method of retrieving.You, sir, are as right about this as it is possible to be. What dogs do "naturally" is chase after motion, honor their noses, and make little dogs. To make a retrieve requires a dog to go to a fetch object, pick it up, hold it, and bring to a handler - there to deliver it to hand as instructed. All but the first part are man's idea, not the dog's.

Evan, just out of curiosity, you believe then that behavior traits can not be selectively bred for? I have been around some breeding programs besides those for dogs. Most were centered around physical attributes, but not all. Some were definitely designed to produce temperment as well as other specific behaviors. Are you saying that you believe that no behavior can be genetically imprinted in canines?

[EvanG]

Evan, just out of curiosity, you believe then that behavior traits can not be selectively bred for? I have been around some breeding programs besides those for dogs. Most were centered around physical attributes, but not all. Some were definitely designed to produce temperment as well as other specific behaviors. Are you saying that you believe that no behavior can be genetically imprinted in canines?

So that we understand each other more clearly, I don't believe a retrieve is a single behavior. I see it as a set of behaviors, only some of which are produced by inborn traits. When you see a dog watch something fall and then run toward it you have seen the part that occurs by nature; chasing motion. People have learned over time that with a little training we can teach the dog to come back to us with what he's fetched (assuming he picked it up!).

What we do as trainers, in order to make the retrieve reliable and well organized, is to assemble a few man made acts (what is commonly called "obedience") together with the the desire to chase motion, and organize what I call the "fully-trained retrieve". Fetch, Hold, Here, "Drop" (the command to deliver as commanded). Well bred gundogs are bred for a number of traits, including the inborn desire to chase motion and use their noses to scent game. But chasing motion - alone - is not retrieving. And coming reliably on command is not an act of nature. Neither is fetching and holding on command. The reliable retrieving of game is the sum of several parts. Some are bred for. Some must be trained for.

EvanG

[whoadog]

Good enough answer to suit me. Thanks Evan.