Alternative(s) to AKC test/trials?

[chrokeva]

After watching AKC make a statement on there thoughts on e-collar I have been reminded of just how much I dislike the AKC's way of doing things
I am new to the gundog world but not new to the dog competition world. I use to compete in herding trials both AKC and USBCHA (United States Border Collie Handlers Association) and found that AKC trials were lacking in so many ways that it was barely worth the entry fees. I actually became so disenchanted with the AKC herding program that I stopped trialing my HX (Herding Excellent) cattle dog 1 point before her Herding Championship and decided to spend my time trialing and working my border collies on the USBCHA trial circuit. I am wondering if there are other venues for gundog competition besides AKC? and if so what your thoughts are on them? Also curious what peoples thoughts are of the AKC hunting trial/test programs?

[RayGubernat]

I cannot comment on the AKC test program, as I do not participate in it.

However, I do participate in AKC trials and find that, in my area at least, they are, for the most part, well organized, well run, well judged and a high degree of sportsmanship is in evidence.
A fair number of folks make these trials a family affair, which is quite nice.

There are several alternatives to AKC trials, with American Field trials the predominant horseback alternative and US Complete and NBHA/ABHA being the predominant walking venues. There is also a very healthy walking cover dog(grouse and woodcock) circuit in the northern tier states, which is mostly English setters and some pointers.

There is also the National Shoot to Retrieve Assn(NSTRA), which sanctions walking trials at which game birds are shot. I do not participate in those trials either, so I have no insight there.


RayG

[shags]

Let's not jump the gun...the head of performance events at AKC wasn't even aware of that infamous interview, so we'll have to wait and see what the 'official' stance is regarding AKC and ecollars.

At any rate, before you write off AKC trials, why don't you try a few? You might find a world of difference between them and the herding dog program.

There are other formats, enough so anyone with just about any dog can find a place to play. Depends on what you prefer. google NAVHDA, NSTRA, UKC, American Field ( FDSB), US Complete, NBHA, UFTA for starters. Then run a general search for gundog or bird dog trials and competitions. There are more, run and gun type etc.

AKC hunt tests are non-competitive events. You dog is judged against a standard and passes or fails. They can be fun if you're satisfied with being good enough to pass and don't wish to compete with others head to head. However, IME testers can get caught up in their own forms of competition...youngest, oldest, newest, only, first, highest scoring, whatever. No prizes for any of that, except for bragging rights.

The trials are competitive events. The judging is subjective, so performance vs. success can vary. Your dog can have the best day of his life and get beat because other dogs did better. Be prepared to lose more than you win, and be willing to go back home and work harder for the next trial. I think that AKC events are generally user friendly, and are set up so noobs can break in fairly easily.

[gundogguy]

After watching AKC make a statement on there thoughts on e-collar I have been reminded of just how much I dislike the AKC's way of doing things
I am new to the gundog world but not new to the dog competition world. I use to compete in herding trials both AKC and USBCHA (United States Border Collie Handlers Association) and found that AKC trials were lacking in so many ways that it was barely worth the entry fees. I actually became so disenchanted with the AKC herding program that I stopped trialing my HX (Herding Excellent) cattle dog 1 point before her Herding Championship and decided to spend my time trialing and working my border collies on the USBCHA trial circuit. I am wondering if there are other venues for gundog competition besides AKC? and if so what your thoughts are on them? Also curious what peoples thoughts are of the AKC hunting trial/test programs?

1st of all never utter test and trial in the same question. They are so totally opposite of each other in format, judging, and standards of sporting behavior. The events can not be evaluated together.
Having only attended one Pointing dog Test, So I will not offer much on the pointing dog test culture. Really have little understanding of the test culture though I have trained more pointing breeds than Retrievers or Spaniels. Just more of them in my local.

Having been to numerous Retriever tests and assisted folks in there handling skills and the preparation of the dog for the various levels of testing. The retriever test program is extremely viable and worth while in the developing dogs and folks, that they should gain insights in the standards of creditable non-slip work as they develop their dogs.
I really would like to think that the Spaniel test program is alive and well. I would like to think that standards of performance were being improved upon like they are in the Retriever test culture. The standards are not improving, they are stagnant and are not challenging the dog or handler in a way that would make the tests meaningful.

Whether the E-collar is legal to use 10 -15 years from now will make little difference in the Spaniel test community. Many So called Test Spanielers will walk lock step with the AKC on this issue. It was only a few short years ago that pronged pinch collar was outlawed on the event grounds of the Spaniel community
The elimination of the E-collar would have grave consequences in the Pointing and Retriever training culture.

[Sharon]

Coverdog Field trials - walking /wild birds only.

http://www.angelfire.com/mn3/coverdog/

[chrokeva]

Interesting.....if I am reading this correctly you are saying that the retriever tests are a worth while venue but the spaniel test is stagnant? Any insight on why this is? I can only draw on my experience with the AKC herding program but I will say that if you put a corgi in with a border collie and ask them to test or compete in the same venue I believe you do the sport a disservice. You just can't expect a corgi to work like a border collie so the only option is to bring the standard down to a level that the corgi can pass tests which is why the AKC program does not work IMO. So my question is is it similar within the spaniel community? Are the Springers testing with for example a Clumber? Are the expectations for these two very different dogs the same? Is that also the case with retrievers?

[gundogguy]

Interesting.....if I am reading this correctly you are saying that the retriever tests are a worth while venue but the spaniel test is stagnant? Any insight on why this is? I can only draw on my experience with the AKC herding program but I will say that if you put a corgi in with a border collie and ask them to test or compete in the same venue I believe you do the sport a disservice. You just can't expect a corgi to work like a border collie so the only option is to bring the standard down to a level that the corgi can pass tests which is why the AKC program does not work IMO. So my question is is it similar within the spaniel community? Are the Springers testing with for example a Clumber? Are the expectations for these two very different dogs the same? Is that also the case with retrievers?

I am not going to do your research for you. However if you look at the Canadian Spaniel Hunt test and compare the requirements to the AKC spaniel Hunt Test You will see that the Canadians are looking for a very serious testing process.
Concerning the AKC put an Airedale into the Spaniel Test program and you will get the Corgi/Border Collie affect. Same goes for the Retriever breeds that are eligible to enter the Spaniel hunt test. AKC made that happen all in the name of generating more entry's. From my viewpoint a mistake both in form and substance. Though I have trained 40 to 50 spaniels to some level of title in the Spaniel hunt test venue I have not entered one of my own in some 15 yrs. and will not support with dogs in the future.

[welsh]

... if you look at the Canadian Spaniel Hunt test and compare the requirements to the AKC spaniel Hunt Test You will see that the Canadians are looking for a very serious testing process.

The real sign of a problem in AKC test standards was the creation of a "Master Hunter - Advanced" level that is just a matter of earning more legs on a Master Hunter, when that Master Hunter test is actually slightly less demanding than the CKC Senior Hunter.

Meanwhile, an AKC Senior Hunter is the same as CKC Junior Hunter, with the addition of a short blind retrieve.

[chrokeva]

This is fascinating. The differences between the test and trial scene seem enormous. Back when I was involved in the herding program they did have "tests" but they were considered a jumping off point to trials (instinct tests if you will). Now it seems they have a pre-trial test class as another tier to there testing but it still is very much a jumping off point for trials. With the hunting dogs tests and trials seem to be totally different with different levels for each....wow! I have to wonder how and why that happened but I am sure that will become clear further down the road.

[DonF]

They aren't as far apart as you might think. A master hunter should be competitive in walking gun dog stakes. On the retrieving end the master hunter may have a step up with some judges. I watched a call back for retrieving yesterday and saw some really bad examples of retrieving. The AKC position seem's to be you either pass or fail. I watched dog's that so poorly marked the fall the owner's should have been embarrassed. I've watched the retrieve to hand be so bad you had to wonder if the dog had ever been trained in the first place. And it's all pass fail. On relocating on their own, it's verboten in both forums. I have no idea why because I believe it is very good dog work. A dog standing around waiting for the handler to get there while the bird is running out isn't accurately locating much less holding the game. The major difference seem's to be not much more than the range the dog's run. Trialer's that do the hunt test let their dog's go pretty much and the show people or other's seem to hold their dog's in more. More control by the handler. Some of those show type dogs that never trial would surprise you as hunting dog's. Mostly they lack range and style. They actually do seem, many of them, to have ambition just not to independent. Classic over trained dogs.

[Neil]

Although not pertinent to this thread, until the handler crosses the plane in front of the dog, attempting to flush, in trials the dog can self relocate. He should not creep and point, and had best not put the bird up, but there is much to be admired in a sharp self relocation. Both the written rules and tradition agree, and any judge that has hunted would too.

Neil

[KwikIrish]

Rumor has it, AKC is working on a response, but it seems though the initial intent was this was intended for the average pet owner. The lack of specificity is frustrating and is filled with potential regarding damage to our industry. This woman was way off base. I think they will work to quickly repair this, though the damage may already be done in regards to animal rights activists and their potential leverage to use to their advantage. Sigh.

[shags]

Can't unring a bell.

[chrokeva]

I have not held the AKC in high regard since watching how they handled there "take over" of the border collie so this whole thing comes as no surprise. They do things to damage breeds or in this case the sport and then claim ignorance (i.e. this was intended for the average pet owner). I think they wanted to take a stance against the e-collar which is what they did and now they don't want to be held accountable by the folks involved with performance dogs. In the end no matter what I imagine we all will continue to train dogs (e-collar or not) but to think that AKC did not have a agenda may be giving them just too much credit IMO.

[welsh]

They aren't as far apart as you might think. A master hunter should be competitive in walking gun dog stakes.

In theory ... in AKC spaniel tests, the MH level does not require dogs to be run in braces, and they are only tested on two birds. This is the only level they're required to be steady at. In a CKC test, MH tests the dog on 3 birds with a bracemate -- this is obviously much closer to what happens in a trial and is a more difficult test of steadiness. That's what the standard should be.

Before people bash on tests too much, you can have a field trial champion spaniel without having to do blinds, water blinds, or doubles ... all are required for CKC MH.

[mnaj_springer]

They aren't as far apart as you might think. A master hunter should be competitive in walking gun dog stakes.

In theory ... in AKC spaniel tests, the MH level does not require dogs to be run in braces, and they are only tested on two birds. This is the only level they're required to be steady at. In a CKC test, MH tests the dog on 3 birds with a bracemate -- this is obviously much closer to what happens in a trial and is a more difficult test of steadiness. That's what the standard should be.

Before people bash on tests too much, you can have a field trial champion spaniel without having to do blinds, water blinds, or doubles ... all are required for CKC MH.

This raises the question of whether or not hunt test need to be comparable to field trials. I personally think the Master test could be more difficult, but that's just me.

[gundogguy]

... if you look at the Canadian Spaniel Hunt test and compare the requirements to the AKC spaniel Hunt Test You will see that the Canadians are looking for a very serious testing process.

The real sign of a problem in AKC test standards was the creation of a "Master Hunter - Advanced" level that is just a matter of earning more legs on a Master Hunter, when that Master Hunter test is actually slightly less demanding than the CKC Senior Hunter.

Meanwhile, an AKC Senior Hunter is the same as CKC Junior Hunter, with the addition of a short blind retrieve.

Well said and there in lies one of the many issues with the AKC Spaniel Hunt test program!

[gundogguy]

Can't unring a bell.

Can not put the milk back in glass after it is spilled!

[gundogguy]

This is fascinating. Back when I was involved in the herding program they did have "tests" but they were considered a jumping off point to trials (instinct tests if you will). d.

Tests maybe a "bridge" to field trials for the trainer and owner of either Field Bred Springer's or Field Bred Cockers. For the Springer's and Cockers are the only spaniel breeds that have a trial system established . Springer's have been trialing in this country longer than Retrievers have. In Canada all spaniel breeds may compete in trial though it usually boils down to only the FB Springer's and Cockers.

[EvanG]

I am wondering if there are other venues for gundog competition besides AKC? and if so what your thoughts are on them? Also curious what peoples thoughts are of the AKC hunting trial/test programs?

With specific regard to retrievers, there are several test venues: AKC, HRC, NAHRA, all alive and active. HRC offers plenty of challenge to AKC in that type of event. Field Trials? AKC only. There is no other sanctioning body. If you plan to compete, you have only AKC as a credible venue.

EvanG

[EvanG]

I am wondering if there are other venues for gundog competition besides AKC? and if so what your thoughts are on them? Also curious what peoples thoughts are of the AKC hunting trial/test programs?

With specific regard to retrievers, there are several test venues: AKC, HRC, NAHRA, all alive and active. HRC offers plenty of challenge to AKC in that type of event. Field Trials? AKC only. There is no other sanctioning body. If you plan to compete, you have only AKC as a credible venue.

EvanG

[chrokeva]

This is fascinating. Back when I was involved in the herding program they did have "tests" but they were considered a jumping off point to trials (instinct tests if you will). d.

Tests maybe a "bridge" to field trials for the trainer and owner of either Field Bred Springer's or Field Bred Cockers. For the Springer's and Cockers are the only spaniel breeds that have a trial system established . Springer's have been trialing in this country longer than Retrievers have. In Canada all spaniel breeds may compete in trial though it usually boils down to only the FB Springer's and Cockers.

OK there is the clarity I was looking for......really not much different than the border collies having there own trials other than the fact that the border collies true trials are not AKC trials where the field bred spaniels are.
It sounds like there are plenty of other venues for the pointer and retriever folks besides AKC but is there anything worthwhile for the field bred spaniels outside of AKC?

[gundogguy]

This is fascinating. Back when I was involved in the herding program they did have "tests" but they were considered a jumping off point to trials (instinct tests if you will). d.

Tests maybe a "bridge" to field trials for the trainer and owner of either Field Bred Springer's or Field Bred Cockers. For the Springer's and Cockers are the only spaniel breeds that have a trial system established . Springer's have been trialing in this country longer than Retrievers have. In Canada all spaniel breeds may compete in trial though it usually boils down to only the FB Springer's and Cockers.

OK there is the clarity I was looking for......really not much different than the border collies having there own trials other than the fact that the border collies true trials are not AKC trials where the field bred spaniels are.
It sounds like there are plenty of other venues for the pointer and retriever folks besides AKC but is there anything worthwhile for the field bred spaniels outside of AKC?

Now your getting it To compete AKC Field trials for Spaniels, Cockers, each have their own trial system and both offer National Championship
events to qualified Spaniels.
To participate you would have the Spaniel Test program, a non competitive program

[CDN_Cocker]

So my question is is it similar within the spaniel community? Are the Springers testing with for example a Clumber? Are the expectations for these two very different dogs the same? Is that also the case with retrievers?

Here in Canada cockers and springers run in the same trials against each other. We do not have cocker only trials (mainly because cockers aren't very common up here I would assume). I also know that in retriever trials different types of retrievers compete against each other. Styles may differ slightly but they are bred to do the same job.

[JKP]

However, I do participate in AKC trials and find that, in my area at least, they are, for the most part, well organized, well run, well judged and a high degree of sportsmanship is in evidence.
A fair number of folks make these trials a family affair, which is quite nice.

Ray,
I could be mistaken but I think the OP was commenting on the lack of substance and meaningful accomplishment in his event. IMO, this is where the AKC falls down....witness brace beagle trials where dogs walk and bark and can't get over a Jeep trail to pick up the line on the other side.

In the end we all have to invest in the activities and organizations that most closely approximate our expectations. With the growing number of non-AKC affiliated organizations, it is clear that the AKC is not meeting the needs of many.
But then variety is good too.

[RayGubernat]

However, I do participate in AKC trials and find that, in my area at least, they are, for the most part, well organized, well run, well judged and a high degree of sportsmanship is in evidence.
A fair number of folks make these trials a family affair, which is quite nice.

Ray,
I could be mistaken but I think the OP was commenting on the lack of substance and meaningful accomplishment in his event. IMO, this is where the AKC falls down....witness brace beagle trials where dogs walk and bark and can't get over a Jeep trail to pick up the line on the other side.

In the end we all have to invest in the activities and organizations that most closely approximate our expectations. With the growing number of non-AKC affiliated organizations, it is clear that the AKC is not meeting the needs of many.
But then variety is good too.

JKP -

I know zilch about beagle trials...never seen one. I saw a part of a flushing dog trial...just once. I have seen about a half dozen hunt tests in the various categories. junior , senior and master. I have however, participated in a fair number of AKC field trials for pointing dogs in my area. I reiterate that they are well organized, well run, fairly judged and there is plenty of family and good sportsmanship in evidence.

I will also say this... If you have participated in the NY/NJ/CT/PA/MD/VA area in AKC trials... you will very likely have seen SOME of the very best AKC field trial dogs in the country. If you have competed and placed...you and your dog will have beaten some of the very best and you can be quite proud of that., That is especially true if it is a shorthair or Brittany event. They are generally VERY competitive and very often draw large entries. 20+ dogs is not at all uncommon for an open or amateur gun dog stake, and there will be some good ones in there....bet on it.

Go to an AKC trial at the English Setter Club in NJ or at Flaherty's in CT and it is entirely possible that you will be braced with a breed National Champion. Go to a shorthair trial in either place and it is entirely possible that you will be braced with one or more NGSPA(AF affiliated)champions. I don't know a lot about breeds other than pointers and less about AKC dogs than AF dogs, but off the top of my head I can think of two Breed national Champions whose owners were setter club members and one whose owner lived and competed in CT.

I ran against two out of the three and they were the real deal. I also ran against several top tier NGSPA dogs. I got to watch several of these and some others in a judicial capacity at Wye Is.(an NGSPA national Championship) . They are the real deal also.

I cannot speak to other areas of the country, as I do not travel much.

RayG

[shags]

Come on out to Ohio sometime, Ray. We'd love to have you. Those pointers of yours could open up and run out here. Don't forget your garmin!:D

@JKP...At one of my club's trials we had an NFC or NAFC for every pointing breed except WHPGriffons (at that time spins and IRWS were not in the sporting group). We compete with heavy hitters in several breeds. There is no lack of quality competition, and if you run here, you'd better bring your best.

[Sharon]

Although not pertinent to this thread, until the handler crosses the plane in front of the dog, attempting to flush, in trials the dog can self relocate. He should not creep and point, and had best not put the bird up, but there is much to be admired in a sharp self relocation. Both the written rules and tradition agree, and any judge that has hunted would too.

Neil

Well said . I wish AF trials would change to accepting a " sharp self relocation" too.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

If you have read many of JKP's posts you know he doesn't think much of Field Trial dogs or AKC.He don't like competitive trials because he says they are about the people & not the dogs.

[MJB64]

If you have read many of JKP's posts you know he doesn't think much of Field Trial dogs or AKC.He don't like competitive trials because he says they are about the people & not the dogs.

Is it really necessary to drag that subject onto this thread, too?

Mike

[RayGubernat]

Can't unring a bell.

Can not put the milk back in glass after it is spilled!

No you cannot. But you can clean up the mess and throw it all out in the trash and start with a whole brand new glass of milk.

Gina DiNardo needs to be fired unless her position is one which the AKC supports. If the position she espoused is not the position of the AKC, she was derelict in her duty as spokesperson. If she is not fired, that is proof positive that the AKC indeed holds that electronic training devices are not acceptable.

If that is the case, the breed clubs involved in performance events, such as the sporting dog group and the hound group...need to turn their back on the AKC and form their own registry.

This sort of thing needs to be stopped...and stopped hard. HSUS and their insidious agenda has no place in the AKC and it must be repudiated with vigor. You cannot negotiate with terrorists.

RayG

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Can't unring a bell.

Can not put the milk back in glass after it is spilled!

No you cannot. But you can clean up the mess and throw it all out in the trash and start with a whole brand new glass of milk.

Gina DiNardo needs to be fired unless her position is one which the AKC supports. If the position she espoused is not the position of the AKC, she was derelict in her duty as spokesperson. If she is not fired, that is proof positive that the AKC indeed holds that electronic training devices are not acceptable.

If that is the case, the breed clubs involved in performance events, such as the sporting dog group and the hound group...need to turn their back on the AKC and form their own registry.

This sort of thing needs to be stopped...and stopped hard. HSUS and their insidious agenda has no place in the AKC and it must be repudiated with vigor. You cannot negotiate with terrorists.

RayG

Terrorists? Really?

[RayGubernat]

[No you cannot. But you can clean up the mess and throw it all out in the trash and start with a whole brand new glass of milk.

Gina DiNardo needs to be fired unless her position is one which the AKC supports. If the position she espoused is not the position of the AKC, she was derelict in her duty as spokesperson. If she is not fired, that is proof positive that the AKC indeed holds that electronic training devices are not acceptable.

If that is the case, the breed clubs involved in performance events, such as the sporting dog group and the hound group...need to turn their back on the AKC and form their own registry.

This sort of thing needs to be stopped...and stopped hard. HSUS and their insidious agenda has no place in the AKC and it must be repudiated with vigor. You cannot negotiate with terrorists.

RayG[/quote]


Terrorists? Really?[/quote]

There are lots of different kinds of terrorists. You have the kind that use guns to enforce their vision of what should be like the Stalinists who massacred hundreds of thousands of their own citizens, Fascists, both the Spanish and Italian, but most especially the Nazi variety and lately, Muslim jihadists are examples of overtly violent terrorism. Those are the most noticeable.

However, there are numerous other extremists who will use all available means to destroy someone else's way of life. Our very own government routinely engages in terrorism to keep some portions of its citizenry in line. How else would you characterize the deliberate attacks on conservative groups by the current administration, using the IRS and law enforcement arms of the federal government. How about the recurring attacks on honest farmers by the EPA? In WWII, what term would you rather use to describe the forced incarceration of its Japanese-American population and their subsequent loss of homes, businesses and property? During the McKinley administration there was an active military campaign against Fillipino nationalists that resulted in over one hundred thousand dead Fillipino nationals. How would you characterize the McCarthy era witch hunts?

If these things are not US government sponsored terrorism, I don't know what is.

Terrorism has many faces. Animal rightist movements have their share of extremists who will stop at nothing to futher their view. Just ask the folks who ran laboratories whose research was destroyed because some animal rights terrorists invaded and compromised their animal testing facilities. Ask the Innuit whose lives and whose WAY of life has been disrupted by +activists" interfering with seal and whale harvests, practices and traditions and a way of life which predate most of western civilization. Ask native Americans about US government sponsored terrorism. Wounded Knee anyone?

Animal rights extremists are terrorists. Make no mistake about that. They have as their goal, the destruction of a certain way of life. Animal rights organizations give aid, comfort, legitimacy and support to these extremists, much as the Arab community, both Sunni and Shia, does for the jihadists. The organization which buys the guns for the extremists is shares the guilt when those guns are misused.

This nonsense has to be stopped...and stopped hard.


RayG

[Neil]

Ray is right, and the Brittany folks seem satisfied with the AKC's weak response.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Comparing the AKC to Nazis or any other Terror group is insane.

Most people are allowed to have an opinion on certain things without being fired much less lumping them in the group as Terrorists.

Lets keep it real here.

[shags]

Umm, I think he's calling some of the AR segments terrorists, not AKC.

Having worked in a preclinical research facility, I know firsthand about some AR groups and what lengths they'll go to advance their agenda. Don't make light of them, they are crazy.

[Neil]

Comparing the AKC to Nazis or any other Terror group is insane.

Most people are allowed to have an opinion on certain things without being fired much less lumping them in the group as Terrorists.

Lets keep it real here.

It was not her opinion that concerns me.

She was in her official capacity representing the AKC and took an anti-e- collar position. For that she should be fired. Then she can take her opinion to any of a number of AR groups that share it and would welcome her, should get a raise.

If she apologizes for her ignorance in a public statement, I would consider giving her a second chance. Without proper contrition she will do it again, and again.

[ezzy333]

Comparing the AKC to Nazis or any other Terror group is insane.

Most people are allowed to have an opinion on certain things without being fired much less lumping them in the group as Terrorists.

Lets keep it real here.

Some of the AR groups have been declared terrorist and when you are representing a company you are obligated to support their position and not yours.

[Neil]

Comparing the AKC to Nazis or any other Terror group is insane.

Most people are allowed to have an opinion on certain things without being fired much less lumping them in the group as Terrorists.

Lets keep it real here.

Some of the AR groups have been declared terrorist and when you are representing a company you are obligated to support their position and not yours.

Thank you for so clearly stating what I wanted to say.

If you are not with us you must be against us.

The AR groups go step by small step then theiy reach the goal read their proclamations on their web sites.

Step by step. Say nothing and they advance.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Comparing the AKC to Nazis or any other Terror group is insane.

Most people are allowed to have an opinion on certain things without being fired much less lumping them in the group as Terrorists.

Lets keep it real here.

Some of the AR groups have been declared terrorist and when you are representing a company you are obligated to support their position and not yours.

Thank you for so clearly stating what I wanted to say.

If you are not with us you must be against us.

The AR groups go step by small step then theiy reach the goal read their proclamations on their web sites.

Step by step. Say nothing and they advance.

It would be nice to share a campfire with you guys and converse over the diff between an employee using the right to express their opinion and a terrorist.

I promise that you guys would come out with a different opinion of what a terrorist is. (especially how it relates to the AKC)

I also would come out with a bunch of new knowledge.

[ezzy333]

None either stated or implied that AKC was a terrorist. You mis-read that as it was pointed out to you earlier.

[Neil]

I would enjoy the campfire chat, but the point you are missing she was not giving her opinion, she was giving the official position of AKC.

And I don't think she is a terrorist yet, just one in training.

Did you even bother to view the segment? Why would you defend her?

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

I would enjoy the campfire chat, but the point you are missing she was not giving her opinion, she was giving the official position of AKC.

And I don't think she is a terrorist yet, just one in training.

Did you even bother to view the segment? Why would you defend her?

Yes I read it and I am not defending her but comparing it to Terror groups is a bit much.

[gundogguy]

I would enjoy the campfire chat, but the point you are missing she was not giving her opinion, she was giving the official position of AKC.

And I don't think she is a terrorist yet, just one in training.

Did you even bother to view the segment? Why would you defend her?

Yes I read it and I am not defending her but comparing it to Terror groups is a bit much.

Terror comes in many forms. This was a trial balloon sent up to test the waters so to speak. By the reactions "they", the liberal progressives, will adjust the message and try again. It is call "Incrementalism". Lets find a issue that we can demonize and build support for the idea of out lawing the issue. Just a form of control that has been prevalent in this country, and building since the turn of the 19 century.
Your freedoms are rotting under our feet!

[RayGubernat]

I would enjoy the campfire chat, but the point you are missing she was not giving her opinion, she was giving the official position of AKC.

And I don't think she is a terrorist yet, just one in training.

Did you even bother to view the segment? Why would you defend her?

Yes I read it and I am not defending her but comparing it to Terror groups is a bit much.

Terror comes in many forms. This was a trial balloon sent up to test the waters so to speak. By the reactions "they", the liberal progressives, will adjust the message and try again. It is call "Incrementalism". Lets find a issue that we can demonize and build support for the idea of out lawing the issue. Just a form of control that has been prevalent in this country, and building since the turn of the 19 century.
Your freedoms are rotting under our feet!

BINGO!!

That is one of the ways it is done. Reasonable people try to be reasonable...and eventually they are forced into a situation where they must be unreasonable or lose everything. by then they have already lost. NOW is the time to act. now is the time to force the AKC TO PUT IT ON THE LINE. Are they, as an organization, supportive of electronic training devices YES OR NO.

Gina DiNardo is on the record. Her statements were made as a spokesperson for the AKC. Either the AKC supports electronic training devices or it does not. If they do not, they need to fire this lady because she misrepresented the AKC's position which is a dereliction of her duty as spokesperson. if Ms. Gina DiNardo remains as a spokesperson for the AKC...that tells me all that I need to know about that organization's intentions. The AKC is on trial here. Lets see if they have the corporate balls to do the right thing.

I bet they do not.

It is much better to be "unreasonable" in the very beginning, because these types of folks never go away, never give up and take, take, take. The sporting dog public needs to hit the AKC back where it hurts them the most...in their balance sheet. The animal rightists need to be set back, and set back again. it is a very short step between vague, ill defined animal cruelty legislation and a gung-ho HSUS member wearing an animal control officer uniform performing raids on kennels, arresting the owner/operator and euthanizing or spaying the animals. if you don'ty think that is where this all is going... you are living with your head in the sand.

The original signatories of the Declaration of Independence and the folks who fought the British and the Indians, and who suffered through Valley Forge and countless other setbacks and discouragements were a lot of things, but they were not "reasonable". Our grandfathers who stormed ashore, fought and died at Guadalcanal, Tarawa,Normandy, Anzio, Chosin Reservoir, Inchon and countless other places were a lot of things, but they were not reasonable.

Think about that the next time someone who is trying to abridge your rights exhorts you to be "reasonable".

Being reasonable. like being PC... is for losers. I think it is about time for the opposition to practice being "reasonable".

RayG

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Comparing the AKC to Nazis or any other Terror group is insane.

Most people are allowed to have an opinion on certain things without being fired much less lumping them in the group as Terrorists.

Lets keep it real here.

Some of the AR groups have been declared terrorist and when you are representing a company you are obligated to support their position and not yours.

Please supply any list of companies that are declared as terrorist organizations so I can ban them.

[shags]

Google is your friend.

Try it.

You'll get plenty of information on AR and eco-terrorism, including people who have been convicted and jailed for it.

[CDN_Cocker]

This thread has turned into something absolutely absurd.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Google is your friend.

Try it.

You'll get plenty of information on AR and eco-terrorism, including people who have been convicted and jailed for it.

I don't have to Google it, I have lived it.

[mnaj_springer]

This thread has turned into something absolutely absurd.

+1