Knowing What A Dog Thinks

[Higgins]

I've seen some comments recently concerning my posts. Seems some take issue with my comments concerning how and what a dog may be thinking at specific times. Virtually everyone would agree that reading a dog is the most important element of successful training. That means taking note of his reactions to training and anticipating what he will do in a future situation. Here is a question for you. Is reading a dog well, and being correct, the same as understanding how or what he may be thinking in a given training situation?

This will probably start a lively debate. Thanks in advance for the emotion.

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

[Neil]

You are guessing about what he may be thinking (the construct of the sentence reveals that - the use of "may"). And it really does not matter if you are right, all that counts in training is how he will react to stimuli.

Even with the advanced verbal skills of people, we still are forced to guess about their motivation.

And we only concern ourselves with the exercise because it makes us feel smart and in control of the uncontrollable.

I want to learn as much as I can about what the dog will do and don't care about what he may be thinking.

[Trekmoor]

Usually by the time you have decided what you think the dog may be thinking it has already commenced that action. Dogs tend to act upon their thoughts .
I try to anticipate what the dog will think about a soon to happen situation in order to be more ready to praise or correct the dogs thinking . Sometimes I manage to do this and sometimes I don't.

Bill T.

[gundogguy]

Definitions can get away from us in these discussions maybe your "what a dog is thinking" should be more narrowly defined.
Nothing wrong with your posts, Brad, however dogs do not think, they perceive energy. They do not know the moral difference between right and wrong they perceived pleasure or pain from experience. Dogs will normally gravitate toward pleasure and avoid pain.

The training and conditioning process leads a dog to the correct behavior through Incrementalism and repetition. Incrementalism, small bits of energy of that do not overwhelm the dog at where ever he is on the training curve. Understanding where a dog is at on the developmental training curve is what 'reading' a dog is all about. Stress both internal and external can hinder a dogs development, developing the confidence of overcoming stress is really what each training session is about.
There are other factors here that are involved.

[Nutmeg247]

For me reading a dog means using current information based on observed behavior to figure what is likely to happen. It may at times involve knowing what the dog is thinking or feeling.

For instance, a dog trembling and whining. Even without birds being involved, if I video my dog trembling and whining before we start a run, and post the video to a mainstream training discussion group, people will diagnose the trembling and whining as fear-related, likely a consequence of harsh training methods, and then the dialogue will degrade from there. Knowing he's about to go for a run, we can infer that he's anticipating the run. With mri s, we now know empirically that a lot of the basic emotions the dog is feeling in this case are similar to those of a small child.

Tail wagging on point, same thing. Likewise for yawning or other signs of stress.

Training-wise, to me this is meaningful in that we know dogs are more likely to do some behaviors than others. This is similar to early "behaviorists" discovering that chickens have a strong tendency to scratch that needs to be factored in.

Beyond that, do I care if my dog is intentionally blowing me off if he fails to recall, or simply distracted? Not really. That seems on current technology to be unknowable, and not that important anyway in terms of getting desired behavior.

[SCT]

A good question and some good posts so far. Dogs minds work "in the now" like other animals. But, it is their "anticipation" of what is still to come that gives you a chance to read their mind. And it is through body language that makes it detectable to your experienced eye. For example, when a dog poses his back end to bolt when the bird flushes, you know he needs more training to be steady. Kinda like training falcons huh Brad, like when a bird is about to snatch a piece of meat from a hand, with experience you can see it coming and react before they do. That's my take on it anyway!!!

Steve

[Higgins]

Kinda like training falcons huh Brad, like when a bird is about to snatch a piece of meat from a hand, with experience you can see it coming and react before they do.

Steve

Great analogy Steve. My dog training is based on my falconry experience. Dogs and hawks/falcons share very similar predator minds.

How about this one. You take your overweight falcon hunting. When the prey is flushed, you notice a momentary hesitation before the falcon begins the chase. You know, if this chase is going to require lots of effort, she is going to pull up and refuse. Tomorrow will be a better day. Especially if the night is cold.

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

[Neil]

Kinda like training falcons huh Brad, like when a bird is about to snatch a piece of meat from a hand, with experience you can see it coming and react before they do.

Steve

Great analogy Steve. My dog training is based on my falconry experience. Dogs and hawks/falcons share very similar predator minds.

How about this one. You take your overweight falcon hunting. When the prey is flushed, you notice a momentary hesitation before the falcon begins the chase. You know, if this chase is going to require lots of effort, she is going to pull up and refuse. Tomorrow will be a better day. Especially if the night is cold.

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

In neither case do you know what the animal is thinking, nor do you need to. You only need to know what and when. I have seen both dogs and hawk eat until they puke, and go right back eating.

And I think most in neurobiology would not agree that a dog and a raptor brains are similar.

[polmaise]

I think dogs think we are stupid .

[SCT]

Neil, I didn't say their brains are similar, but a persons ability to detect an animals forth coming action helps in immediate decisions. I disagree that you don't need to know what the animal is thinking (reacting to stimuli), because without knowing, you would not know how to respond to his/her future action. In the falconry situation, you would loose at least a bit of blood. If it's an eagle, you could loose a lot of blood.

Neil, I think a neurologist would say you are wrong when you called dogs brains similar to humans in your first post......something about reacting to stimuli and motivation. You don't twist my words and I won't twist yours.

I understand that dogs are not highly cognitive thinkers, but the word think, or thinking, is a word us humans can relate to. Line up 10 animal neurologists/behaviorists and see if they all emphatically agree on what LEVEL animals "think" on.

Brad, fat falcons would rarely be turned loose at my place for obvious reasons, but wild falcons, not knowing where their next meal is coming from, will kill with the same enthusiasm as when they're sharp..another subject though eh?

Steve

[SCT]

I think dogs think we are stupid .

Absolutely!!

[Pepper]

“Reading a dog”…I believe only comes from Human’s past dog experience, and that doesn’t happen overnight. We store that past and present experience and when we see a similar behavior, we have a pretty good idea of what the dog will do base on that experience, and hopefully be prepared to do what is meant for the task at hand…be it in the yard or in the field.
All dogs are different IMO, but, they do show like behaviors in some areas and with that, we can react.

[hettmoe]

I like to think that my dog and I have one braincell each. She thinks "Get the Bird." And I follow her around with my mouth wide open, amazed at her abilities. Is there really anything more to it?

[Swampbilly]

I've seen some comments recently concerning my posts. Seems some take issue with my comments concerning how and what a dog may be thinking at specific times. Virtually everyone would agree that reading a dog is the most important element of successful training. That means taking note of his reactions to training and anticipating what he will do in a future situation. Here is a question for you. Is reading a dog well, and being correct, the same as understanding how or what he may be thinking in a given training situation?

This will probably start a lively debate. Thanks in advance for the emotion.

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs

For me it's not the same. Who knows what the dog is "thinking"? What matters to me, is you've read the dog right and can determine whether to move forward or more reps.
As long as you're training objectively to me, it doesn't matter how the dog feels about politics.
What the dog 'thinks' about retrieving in general is worth pondering

[polmaise]

The man or woman that knows what a dog thinks is a learned person indeed!

The man or woman that thinks they know what a dog thinks is a fool.
I have been amused and bemused ,fascinated and amazed with what I thought a dog would think .

I think I am a fool and the dog is smarter than I .

Polmaise.circa 2014.

[Stoneface]

To answer your question, it is exactly the same. If you read a page of a book well and correct, you understand what the author was thinking when he wrote it. If you read a dog well and correct, you understand what he is thinking. Dogs wear their heart on their sleeve and their body language is a surefire, unmistakable dictation of what they think if you know what you're looking at.

[DonF]

To answer your question, it is exactly the same. If you read a page of a book well and correct, you understand what the author was thinking when he wrote it. If you read a dog well and correct, you understand what he is thinking. Dogs wear their heart on their sleeve and their body language is a surefire, unmistakable dictation of what they think if you know what you're looking at.

I don;'t think that's quite true. Some writer's seem to have a problem getting their point across!