Weimy trainers.........I need encouragement

[hustonmc]

This post has been dug up from 7yrs ago, but feel free, you never know what you might learn

First I give you a little background, then we can go from there. I'm the grandson of a Hound fanatic, and the son of a Pointer fanatic. I've always been a little excentric and always had a soft spot in my heart for the grey ghost. One deployment while I was in the Navy I saved my money to buy a precious Weimy for my welcome back to civillian present. I got him on wild birds as a pup, but knowing what I know now, not near enough. I got lucky and ran into one of the top NSTRA in NW Region history. HE kinda took me under his wing, and being a Brittany guy, I guess felt sorry for me. We got the dog on released quail and had many training sessions and instilled in me a desire for perfection. Getting Colt steady to flush, whoa, come, heal, was quite a simple process. After a "so so" first hunting season as just a 14month old pup I decided to have him polished up with a pro. He had started to sit on his points right before I flushed and started munching the birds on the retrieve, but to be honest was a better trained dog then just your average hunter. I would only settle for the best a sent him 4 hours away this winter, for 3 months. I made the trip over icy roads every other weekend and sometimes back to back to be trained myself and let Colt learn to work for me. When it was all said and done I h dog that would honor, fetch ANYTHING, whistles, wing and shot, etc. A polished dog, and for a Weimy he ran hard, and fast. Heck, for a pointing dog perios he ran big, fast, hard. I started getting whispers in my ear I could win a handful or more NSTRA events against some good Pointers, Setters, Britts. This is where the discouragment comes in. Every weekend is something new. He starting sitting on his points, so I let off pressure and let him flush birds, he steadied up. He started creeping I put the check cord back on, he stopped creeping. He started hunting close I took the cord off. He crept again so I went back to yard work on whoa, he started sitting again on birds. I put the collar under his belly and continuaay lifted him up, his tail went down. Let him get aster birds again, his tail came back up. Now he creeps again, and top it off, started rolling birs in his mouth. He is major Aplha and tries to pull one on me all the time, so anything outside the kennel the collar goes on. Even on our nightly jogs he decided he doesn't want to heal anymore, so collar and pinch collar back on that all over again.

So my question...............Is he going to outgrow this? Is there ever going to be light at the end of the tunnel? I'm lucky and have become friends with some of the most respected and succesful trainers in the NorthWest, for Setters, Pointers, Britts.
Any words of encouragment, or similar circumstances with happy endings. He knows how to use his nose, he runs AWESOME!!!! And actually has the potential to be a top Weimy. I know my timing may be off, and although I feel I have endless resources of knowledge, I am green. Thank you fellow Weim lovers, look forward to hear from ya.

[Higgins]

Here is a video of a Weim we recently had in training.



I find it helpful with most dog to let the bird do a lot of the training. This dog has never heard the word "whoa" but he knows he has to stop when a bird flushes. Knowing that, he has a lot of confidence and he is careful not to put a bird up.

Brad Higgins
Higgins Gundogs
Home of the Higgins Remote Releaser

[TrueBlu Shorthairs]

Literally, philosophically, and mentally Weims are a different breed. They mature slower than most all pointing breeds. I would tell you that you are doing all this steady training far too early. I'd get with Deb Meifert and let her look at the dog. I'd also tell you to not listen to pointer, brit, or any trainers who haven't trained a bunch of weims.

Hate to say, the alpha stuff is most likely going to become more of an aggression issue if I base my opinion on the many Weims I have seen and messed with over 30 years. The breed has changed drastically from the loving calm sweet dog they were 25 or 30 years ago.

Not exactly encouraging, but honest.

[ymepointer]

It sounds like your weim is doing pretty well actually, I would take him back to the trainer who steadied him the first time and re steady him. It is not uncommon for bird dogs to become unsteady after a hunting season or two if the owner does not reinforce the training consistently.

In my experience, Weims have the least pointing instinct overall of any pointing breed I have fooled with. They are a hound that points almost, and to boot have not had very many field oriented kennels doing long range breed improvement type breedings, but you can still find a very nice one if you look hard enough and have a little luck.( Deb and Myron have some very very nice weims, Their Gus and his Daddy Ryder are the equiviant of WEIM royalty when it comes to field dogs.) Because of that, fooling with a weim on point is very touchy business and using silent non invasive measures is the best way to go with them, otherwise they tend to loose focus. He probably won't outgrow it but you can re train him, these bad habits need to be corrected but I bet your current trainer(is it RJ?) can correct this I am sure.

"bleep" Wilbur in Texas used to run his weims in NSTRA in texas and did quite well with them though I don't think he ever had a NSTRA champion he did have several with 9-10 points. I had a weim from his almost 20 years ago and he ended up the number 2 puppy at the Green Valley Hunting and retriever club in Eugene one year(Mike Tallerday's little Tomoka bred setter beat him out for number one, but not by much). We members ran NSTRA fun trials and kept track of points for the year. That weim was a real nice bird dog, and unusual for a weim had lots of point and lots of run, a real natural. Some of my hunting buddies who in general did not like grey dogs liked him but used to say he was a weim who thought he was a pointer

[zzweims]

I've dealt with a few weims, and yes, they have their quirks. But so do all breeds. And so do individual dogs. They mature at different rates. The style, drive, biddability, etc. varies from dog to dog. Without knowing you or your dog, I would say that he is just being hard-headed right now. That's a weim thing. It's also a gsp thing. A pointer thing. A gwp thing. etc. Some dogs test you. Some don't.

Having the Meiferts take a look at him is a good idea. They are good people with oodles of weim experience. But I disagree with Trublu on his assement that it takes 'a weim' person to train a weim. That's a myth that's been bantied about the weim community ad nasuem. Any good DOG trainer with patience and a sense of humor can train a weim. I personally applaud you for getting him out there with a Brittney guy. If he's a good trainer,and it sounds like he's gotten you off to a good start, then he'll do right by you and your dog. Plus, your boy will get to run--and learn from--those little orange and white pocket rockets. Of course, if he starts sproinking across the field like a girbil on crack, then you might want to put him down with some pointers to smoothen out his gait. Mimicking other dogs IS a weim trait

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

[WildRose]

My first though is this. You have a nice YOUNG dog of a breed known to be slow to mature and develop. Everything you describe here can be signs of a dog that's been pushed too far, too young. If he were mine I'd take him hunting for a season and get back to being serious about training in the spring.

You can get frustrated and hammer on a dog that's not ready for more and work yourself into a whole lot of unnecessary holes. CR

[Trekmoor]

I will say first of all that although I'm British I am not anti e- collar ........ in the right hands ! Now for my question . Has your Weimaraner been e- collared for flushing or chasing birds ??? If it has been then that could be the reason for the sit prior to the flush.

Bill T.

[bobman]

My first though is this. You have a nice YOUNG dog of a breed known to be slow to mature and develop. Everything you describe here can be signs of a dog that's been pushed too far, too young. If he were mine I'd take him hunting for a season and get back to being serious about training in the spring.

You can get frustrated and hammer on a dog that's not ready for more and work yourself into a whole lot of unnecessary holes. CR

Solid advice, This is what I see also, whats your hurry, you asked will he outgrow it, the answser is probably yes but only if you back off and let him

good luck

[zzweims]

Sorry, I missed the age of the dog in the original post. 14 months is VERY young to start breaking. How old is he now? In any case, I agree with Wildrose. Let him mature a little more before any serious training.

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

[hustonmc]

Sorry, I missed the age of the dog in the original post. 14 months is VERY young to start breaking. How old is he now? In any case, I agree with Wildrose. Let him mature a little more before any serious training.

Aline
http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms

He's 22 months now, I took him out at 14 months but just let him do his thing, no pressure and only shot birds if he did everything right.

[ymepointer]

22 months is pretty young for a Weim to be broke I would say, not even two, yet. It of course depends on the maturity of the dog, but in general I would say weims are slow to mature and 22 months is when most weim trainers I know would start breaking them, so given the discussion above I agree with the others on here who say to take it a little slower. I would suspect someone near you like RJ or the Meiferts, or Dan Hoke could get the job done but I would suspect broke to wing and shot by the age of 3 or 36 months whichever way you want to count it would be pretty good goal. Good luck and keep us informed of how it's going

[Vernal Pike]

Mr.Higgins,

Would you please put up this video again?
I used to have a Weimaraner that had no desire to find birds. But she loved to retrieve. In fact she got excited only when the gun went boom because that was her que to get a bird. Wonderful house pet though.

[gonehuntin']

Instead of working with the collar and cc, try to get someone to lend you some LAUNCHERS and work him with no pressure on those. I think you post was great by the way. I don't have much experience with Weims but yours isn't doing anything many others don't do. You may simply be expecting too much of him. I'm a bettin' he's going to be a pretty nice dog.

[Mikezx18]

I have had Weims since 1996. Sounds like you are doing ok with him. All dogs are different. Keep it fun. They are super smart and can challenge you every step of the way sometimes. Maybe take a month off and just have fun. Then return to training. Sounds like all the dots are there. They just need connected. I suspect one day it will all come together. Patience

[hustonmc]

I have had Weims since 1996. Sounds like you are doing ok with him. All dogs are different. Keep it fun. They are super smart and can challenge you every step of the way sometimes. Maybe take a month off and just have fun. Then return to training. Sounds like all the dots are there. They just need connected. I suspect one day it will all come together. Patience

This post is 7yrs old.
But it does bring back some memories of my evaluation as well. I learned more about training with that dog then I could have with anything else. I did indeed win with this dog, but I placed him in a home that could appreciate a Weim for a Weim. For me, I went back to my roots, I'll probably never own anything but a Pointer, Setter, Briit. But who knows. I know I've trained some darn fine dogs since this post. I've ran the winningest Pointer to ever compete in NW NSTRA and that dog is still only 5 with a LOT more winning to do. I've raised and trained others that most people would love to own. Reading this post I'm reminded how much I thought I knew just being a hunter. I've traveled all over campaigning dogs, met some great people as well as complete douche bags. I learn something new every day and still seek advice from the ones that have been there and done it.
Now as an accomplished amateur trainer, I can answer this question to me, 7yrs ago.
All that wild bird hunting you love to do, do it as much as you can afford. Good breeding makes training easy, great breeding makes training FUN!!!!! Your Weim is a Weim, you've expected too much too fast. Be proud of what you've done with him, he's farther along then you think.

[Mikezx18]

I never looked at the date. Wow

[Higgins]

Mr.Higgins,

Would you please put up this video again?
I used to have a Weimaraner that had no desire to find birds. But she loved to retrieve. In fact she got excited only when the gun went boom because that was her que to get a bird. Wonderful house pet though.

Helo Vernal,

I'm looking for that video for you. In the meantime, here is a more recent video I did of another Weim.
http://youtu.be/VSegnBq1oIQ

Here is a Weim and a Griff exchanging honors.
http://vimeo.com/114089811

Enjoy,

[Vernal Pike]

Mr. Higgins,
Thanks for looking up the old vid and posting the new. I look forward to seeing the old one. Hope you find it.
Also, to Hustonmc, is was nice to know how your Weimaraner ended up.

In learning of dog training on this here forum, I think that I may have inadvertently taught my Weimaraner not to hunt for birds, but rather walk by my side in the fields and woods. I never had her chase and catch birds as a pup. We just went out and I would shoot birds. So she looked to me as the one who had the power to get her birds.

So We would walk in the pheasant field. I'd shoot a bird and then she would go pick it up. This was fun for the Weimaraner.
Without knowing it, I taught her that if she stayed at my side, Dad would shoot a bird for her. So that's what she did.
I never forced her to walk next to me. That's just what she did. And when I was carrying a shotgun I rewarded her for walking next to me by killing a bird for her to retrieve.
I actually rewarded the dog for staying at my side by getting the bird for her to retrieve, which is what she liked to do.

Very enlightening .

For all the e-collar folks; No I never used the collar on her. There was no whoa training. The dog was never reprimanded around birds. We just went out and hunted birds.

The weimaraner loved birds and went crazy when I would put on my hunting pants and got the shotgun out. She knew it was time to get birds.

So I've learned that the puppy "bump and chase game" is really important.

Thanks Mr Higgins. I saw the importance of bump and chase for pups in one of your other videos.
I might have had a Good hunting dog if my dog was introduced to birds properly as a pup.
But this was a few years ago. There was no internet back then.

Best wishes,

Vernal Pike