Bracco Italiano in America ?

[Trekmoor]

Is this breed worked in the U.S. ? I have been a spectator at a couple of their clubs Spring Pointing Tests here that were held on a grouse moor. I "judged a book by it's cover" and expected to see some very slow and poor work. Some of the dogs were slow but the few who had owners who had given their dogs enough experience did very well. That peculiar , long, stretching stride that is supposed to be a breed characteristic, really is very deceiving. They were not 1/2 mile out hunters but would have suited many hunters very well if they did not mind the sort of "heavy hound" look of the dogs.

The dogs just seemed to move effortlessly over the heather and they pointed well too. I was impressed by a couple of those dogs and wondered if anyone worked them in America .

Bill T.

[Gooseman07]

Hunt them or test them? I know of quite a few that are tested in NAVHDA. I assume these people hunt over them as well but I can't say for sure.

[Dirty Dawger]

Trekmoor, I have seen only 1 at a hunt test and he was pretty effective. I personally found that lopey gait houndy too but they remain true to their origins. As you know, in Europe, retaining tradition is a key to many of their philosophies and as such, I believe the Bracco I saw was yet to be crossed with a pointer.
He had strong natural ability traits, moved houndy, remained true to the breed. I wouldn't want one but could see where a more mature hunter might appreciate it's more traditional style, perhaps.

[DonF]

Something I've noticed in this country for about 20yrs now is a lot of hunter's switching to Lesser known breed's to avoid the run and drive bred in from trial dogs. Change is relatively slow but it is changing. There are not that many average hunter's that can handle a dog with excessive drive. And fewer that will go for a dog that runs excessive ranger, many want at max a 200yd dog. Would not surprise me to start seeing these Bracco Italiano dog's coming in. I do believe the trial people are doing the same thing as the show people, just in the opposite direction.

[Trekmoor]

I don't know the American pointing dog scene Don but I think you could be right. Even here where hunting with pointing dogs is usually done at considerably less than 200 yards I have friends who would not want my Brittany because she hunts out wider than that. I still have a very strong liking for fast, wide ranging dogs but my legs and my wind no longer match my likes ! A slower, closer ranging dog would suit me better now, maybe not a bracco though. I am not fond of the "heavy hound" look.

Bill T.

[Ms. Cage]

Ed Erickson ( Autumn Breeze kennels Mora MN ) has trained and put NAVHDA UT prizes on a few. Ed has female and I think he'll be breeding. Watching the Bracco's often for several summers they were pretty cool dogs' The Bracco weren't as slow moving as they looked . The boy were big dogs, so houndy ugly they were cute . Their personality was like a blood hound laying on a porch in the hills of Kentucky... The dogs pointed well , retrieved well , and were good swimmers. Tell you the truth , I grow fond of them .

navhda8-19_20-06na_ut158 (800x563).jpg

Ernie-on-point.jpg

Bracco-Italiano.jpg

[Meller]

Haven't seen one in person, but watched a couple hunting on you-tube. Might look there to see some in action.

[crackerd]

Tammy, thanks for posting the update on the red, white & blue bracci - happy to hear of their progress. They were just making way into NAVHDA as I was taking my leave (thought at the time to be temporary), and I remember watching a couple of them get ridiculously poor scores in NA, and never seeing a bracco run UT up to that time. (Have any been made up as VC yet?) Anyhow, as a hound aficionado, I liked their movement and style, and their testing shortcomings were down to inexperienced handler/trainers - as is the case with most if not all breeds that are getting introduced to a new game outside their native lands. I've told Bill T. the same "growing pains" beset the spinone back then, too - but subsequently the breeders got better, the dogs got better trained, and next thing you know spins found themselves right at home in the upper tier of NAVHDA. Yet Bill vows he's still never seen a decent spinone a'tall in the UK, and ain't no contradicting what his own eyes have come across.

MG

[Trekmoor]

The great majority of braccos and spinones I have seen have come straight from show rings to try working . Their owners were mainly show people who could tell you how their dogs should work but who had no idea how to get them to "run" as a working dog. In some cases the dogs first opportunities to work on game came on the days of the Spring Pointing Tests ! None of those dogs did well and I didn't expect them to but some of the bracco's did at least try to look the part. A couple of the bracco's did have shooting minded owners and those dogs were the one's that impressed me.

I did not judge those tests but the judges opinions seemed to coincide with mine and the better bracco's got into the awards.
I haven't judged tests or trials for years , when I did I used to tell all the competitors that if their dogs hunted in a way that gave me time to yawn and scratch my backside then they would not win. I still feel like that, hunting dogs should "go" a bit and keep me on edge as they work.

Bill T.

[DonF]

I had a similar feeling about dog's. They didn't have to run huge but they did have to make me keep watching for fear of missing something. As for running huge, I never judged or ran all age stakes. I cannot for the life of me figure out how a dog seen at best 10 min in a 30 min stake could be judged.

[crackerd]

As for running huge, I never judged or ran all age stakes. I cannot for the life of me figure out how a dog seen at best 10 min in a 30 min stake could be judged.

Fast horses, "good" singing . On the other hand, gotta wonder what ol' Bill bugling Pavarotti (with the apposite burr in his tenor) would do to accelerate the pace for bracci and spins alike.

Otherwise, spinoni are only "on edge" when they're working in water, which they do with the best of 'em over here.

MG

[Trekmoor]

All I ever do to speed pups up is to show them the game and let them get on with it ! Then I take the pups to places with far less game which makes them stretch out to find it . If it is "in" the dog then it will do it.

I don't train dogs to run fast or far, the game does that.

Bill T.

[crackerd]

I don't train dogs to run fast or far, the game does that.

Bill, tell the truth, did you use the same kind of training to get the Jam Tarts headed back up to the Scottish Premiership? I mean, relegation last year, what a disgrace...

MG

[Trekmoor]

All the Glorious Jambos needed was some adversive training ! The loss of their high wages for a while did that. The proof is in their win of 10 - nil a week or so ago . Not that I follow football of course...

Bill T.

[chiendog]

Of all the breeds I've studied, the Bracco Italiano may be the most misunderstood...at least by North Americans. In much of Europe the breed is fairly well known and well respected for its outstanding nose and unique working style. In Italy it has a very loyal following among hunters and field trialers and there are breeders in the UK, Holland, Germany, France and elsewhere on the continent. But in North American it is a different story. In most areas, the breed is almost completely unknown and where it is known, it tends to baffle most hunters. They have a hard time getting their head around a big houndy looking pointing dog that hunts at a fast, powerful, rhythmic trot.

More here: http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.ca/2011 ... no_13.html

[Ms. Cage]

crackerd,
Here's the NAVHDA stats for Bracco's
Invitational 2 No pass, 1 pass (VC)
UT Prize 1: 5, Prize 2: 11, Prize 3: 6, No Prize: 5, Total 27
NA Prize 1: 16, Prize 2: 14, Prize 3: 10, No Prize: 20, Total 62

[Ms. Cage]

The Bracco VC is, VC Regina Di Cascina Croce, age 5.50, score 192 , year passed 2011

[Nutmeg247]

Of all the breeds I've studied, the Bracco Italiano may be the most misunderstood...at least by North Americans. In much of Europe the breed is fairly well known and well respected for its outstanding nose and unique working style. In Italy it has a very loyal following among hunters and field trialers and there are breeders in the UK, Holland, Germany, France and elsewhere on the continent. But in North American it is a different story. In most areas, the breed is almost completely unknown and where it is known, it tends to baffle most hunters. They have a hard time getting their head around a big houndy looking pointing dog that hunts at a fast, powerful, rhythmic trot.

More here: http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.ca/2011 ... no_13.html

Out of curiosity, do they ever give voice or bay the way hounds do? We have a social friend here in NV who has bloodhounds, one of whom points birds, and after reading about brachhi here it occurred to me that, as with pointing labs, some hounds might naturally tend to point, to, which might account for some of the houndy look for this and other breeds. There's a bracco breeder in Nevada, but I've never seen the dogs in person. The trot is pretty neat on YouTube at least.

[chiendog]

I don't know if they ever bay or bark, but I am sure that if they did, the Italians would NOT be pleased. They are, and always have been, bird dogs. In Italy (and France, Spain etc.) they are used to hunt upland game. period. The Italians (and French etc.) have other breeds for doing hound work unlike the Germans who created their versatile breeds to be jacks of all trades. And that includes giving voice under certain circumstances.

I wrote about the connection between tracking hounds and pointing dogs in the history part of my book and also here: http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.ca/2012 ... -1_30.html

[crackerd]

Thanks for the update, Tammy - and as always it's great to have chien's (Craig K.'s) personal observations and published work color any breed conversation. Bill, you've gotta be simpatico with that, too, given your original post.

MG

[Trekmoor]

Yes MG, I was given Craigs book as a present a few months ago and it is superb. It is not the bracco's looks that attract me to the breed, it is the very good temperament every one of the 20-30 braccos I encountered had plus that incredible ground covering gait the better ones use when hunting. I found the gait to be very attractive and very effective too.
The bracco's who were already grouse experienced on the days of the tests did very well at pointing and producing their birds on command and none of them gave chase.
I think it was the mainly show and pet owners dogs that didn't get any awards.....a dog can't help who it is owned by.

Bill T.

[polmaise]

Bracco , is a minor breed in the UK ,probably for good reason and none of it to do with the dog.
Minor breed owners are usually owners of these elegant creatures because they are in the minority in this country.

I have seen only one by a handler in far North of Scotland that makes the breed look like a Majority choice.

I suspect the same proportionally of course in America.
Nice dog when it's trained on game .

[h&t]

I know Bracco owned by NAVHDA judge. I think he mentioned water work wasn't easy with him.
He did get at least PII UT IIRC.
The gait is called bracco trotta, I think. Bracco's trot.
I think they're also expensive.

[chiendog]

Thanks for the kind words on my book!

As for the Bracco's trot, in Italian it is 'trotto spinto', litterally a “thrusting trot”, with speed and power coming from the powerful back legs. When I asked Bracco expert Cesare Bonasegale about the trotto spinta, he replied:
The trot is not the fastest gait of the Bracco; they can gallop, after all. But the trotto spinto is the natural gait of the breed, and the one that best matches its nose. During this type of trot, there is an instant in which all four paws are off the ground at the same time.

Cesare published in in-depth article (which includes one of my photos of his dogs) about the Bracco trot. It is in Italian and I may translate it at some point, but basically it explains what the trot is, why it is important to the Bracco and Spinone and how it differs between those two breeds. You can read it here. http://www.giornaledelbraccoitaliano.it ... segale.pdf

[Dirty Dawger]

Cheindog, interesting article for sure. Thanks for sharing. It supports what I had stated in that the true Italian Bracco is supposed to retain this "trotted gait", not unlike the equine version of a trotter. In summary, they espouse to keep the trot that makes an Italian Bracco an Italian Bracco and not a dog crossed with pointers, GSPs, etc, that would compromise this trot, among other natural traits. This is why I mentioned that pointers should be pointers and GSPs should be GSPs and setters should be setters and Brittanys should be Brittanys, etc. etc. I had a Brittany that could compete with pointers so I'm not pointing fingers. I played my part in this.
More-often-than-not, most all pointing breeds in America are crossed with pointers/setters, whether out of volition or necessity, at the cost of altering what distinctive attributes used to exist in those other breeds.
As I said, in Europe it is critically important to retain traditional attributes and that is what distinguishes us from them, for one.

[ezzy333]

Cheindog, interesting article for sure. Thanks for sharing. It supports what I had stated in that the true Italian Bracco is supposed to retain this "trotted gait", not unlike the equine version of a trotter. In summary, they espouse to keep the trot that makes an Italian Bracco an Italian Bracco and not a dog crossed with pointers, GSPs, etc, that would compromise this trot, among other natural traits. This is why I mentioned that pointers should be pointers and GSPs should be GSPs and setters should be setters and Brittanys should be Brittanys, etc. etc. I had a Brittany that could compete with pointers so I'm not pointing fingers. I played my part in this.
More-often-than-not, most all pointing breeds in America are crossed with pointers/setters, whether out of volition or necessity, at the cost of altering what distinctive attributes used to exist in those other breeds.
As I said, in Europe it is critically important to retain traditional attributes and that is what distinguishes us from them, for one.

Right on. No need to have ten breeds that all do the same thing in the same manner and sooner or later end up looking the same. It might support registaratins though since the papers would be the only clue to what breed your dog really is.

[chiendog]

Yes indeed, there is a tendency in North America to 'modify' the various pointing breeds. But there is a similar tendency to do so in Europe as well. In fact, I am comfortable stating that all of the pointing breeds over there have received a shot or two of Pointer and/or setter at some point in time over the last 100 years (some got more than others and some got it more recently than other). BUT there is one huge difference when it comes to modifying the breeds. In most European countries, there are formal requirements for dogs to remain closer to the standard in terms of look and hunting style, and those requirements are adhered to more than they are here.

For example, in France, a dog cannot become a field trial champion unless it is also been certified by a judge (usually at a show) to look like it is supposed to look (size, coat, head shape etc.). So while there are some lines of GSPs (for example) in France that have had a ton of Pointer bred into them over the years, they still look pretty much the same as GSPs from 'purer' lines in Germany that have not had any Pointer crossed into them in a hundred years. The same can be said for many other breeds. Pointers were crossed into Bracco lines as recently as the 1950s and 60s. But Italian breeders not only managed to keep the natural trot, but they also kept (and in fact improved on) the classic look and character of the breed.

And when it comes to field trials, two things are in place that help reduce the temptation to go overboard with crosses and modifications to a breed and help encourage breeders to keep the breeds closer to the accepted working standards. First of all (and most importantly) pointing dogs from the continental breeds almost never compete head to head with pointing dogs from the British and Irish breeds. In other words, GSPs don't run against Pointers and Brittanies don't run against Setters. So there is no need to modify them to remain competitive against the faster and bigger running breeds. Even for the two Italian trotting breeds (Braccos and Spinone) separate trials are sometimes set up, where they only compete against each other. And that is to help them keep their natural style of hunting. The other thing is that judges over there pay a bit more attention to a breed's working standard when they judge a dog. If a Bracco is supposed to trot and a Brittany supposed to gallop, and they are in the same trial, then most judges will keep that in mind and do their best to choose the best dog on the day according to how well it performed its duty as a bird dog.

I just wrote a long-ish blog post that goes into a few more differences in the hunting and bird dog cultures over here and over there. Check it out at: http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.ca/2015 ... t-one.html

[Trekmoor]

I am not sure how relevant this is to this thread but crosses of pointers and setters to the HPR breeds have been mentioned so here goes anyway ! I understand that in America both pointer and setter blood were introduced to the original brittanies and to many dogs bred long after the breeds original introduction. I think the general idea was to have brittanies that run further and faster ? You succeeded in doing that I think.

My first Brittany bought almost 30 years ago was a "half and half." She was half American breeding ( a dam from Texas) and a French type Brittany dog. She looked far more American in type than French and she ran like an American dog too. I saw a few other brittanies back then at trials and one or two out working but those dogs were all "pure" French in type . They did not hunt as far out as my bitch did or with such passion and folk said the two types were so far apart that she had hybrid vigour. They may have been correct.

My present Brittany bitch hunts just as widely as that first one did and she is pure French.... an Epagneulle Breton. I do not think that came about by accident. I have talked to men and women who have been to France and who have taken part in French trials. It seems the brits in French trials are now expected to quarter more widely than was previously the case and the dogs are possibly a bit faster than before too.

It looks like the French are now expecting more of an American Brittany style of performance ? I was told by people I have no reason to distrust that a few French kennels , known only for their brittanies, have quietly introduced a pointer or two to the Brittany breed. It would seem that that is true if the rather sudden increase of both pace and range I am now seeing is to be explained ?

I am well known for liking fast , hard going hunting dogs and I like my present Brittany very much .....but I cannot keep up with her ! I don't think the original brittanies were ever meant to hunt as far out as seems to be the case now both in American trials or in French trials. Were they not supposed to hunt/work much closer to the hunter than we now expect ? Were they not originally worked for a great deal of the time in fairly thick woodlands ?

Bill T.

[chiendog]

I suppose there could be any number of reasons why someone would breed Pointer or Setter blood into another breed of pointing dog. It could be everything from an accidental breeding to an attempt to widen the gene pool to just a personal choice of 'why not'. After all cross breeding is not illegal. But clearly, when competition enters the equation, the temptation to add a dash of this and a dash of that to a breeding line increases exponentially. So that is the most likely explanation for the development of bigger and bigger running Brits...on both sides of the ocean. In North America, Brittanies and other Continental breeds compete against Pointers and Setters and amongst themselves in field trial formats (horseback) that favour big running, fast dogs. So if big running is good, bigger running is better and huge running is even better still. All breeds that develop lines selected for field trials basically evolve in that direction. There are now huge running GSPs, Vizslas and even Weimaraners (I own one) over here. Did crosses to Pointers and Setters happen at some point? Probably.

In France, there is a huge and highly competitive field trial scene and, among the continental breeds, Brittanies (and GSPs) completely dominate it. And there too, bigger and faster running dogs are what catch the eye of judges, even if they are running in a way that is far outside the standard. So once again, we see the 'if big running is good, bigger running is better and huge running is even better still' idea in action. And yes, in all likelihood Setters and Pointer blood has been infused into Brittany lines.

BUT there are a couple of really important thing to keep in mind. First of all, the Brittany is one of the most popular breeds of pointing dog in France. It usually competes with the English setter for the number one position in terms of numbers bred there, which is usually in the neighborhood of 5000 Brit pups whelped per year in France (the breed is also very popular across Europe, so there are probably another few thousand bred elsewhere). And that means you can find just about any 'flavour' of Brittany you want. I've seen Brits there that ran like all-age setters, and I've seen Brits there that worked more or less in gun range at a comfortable lope. It all comes down to finding the right line and the right breeder that is producing the kind of Brittany you are looking for. Secondly, I should mention that the idea that the Brittany was always a close working dog that only developed into a wider ranger in modern times may not be quite accurate. There have probably always been big running Brits in France. In fact in one of the very first descriptions of them in English, from 1863, George Lowth, an English hunter who frequently traveled to Brittany to hunt woodcock wrote that everywhere he went in Brittany he came across pointing dogs and that "There is also a breed of setters, quite equal to any in England, and, in fact, not to be distinguished from them..."

I wrote about the history of the breed here: http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.ca/2011 ... eek_2.html

[ezzy333]

I doubt if the cross breeding has been quite as prevalent as you indicate, but there is little doubt it has happened. One of the tell tell signs of setter breeding are the uneven head markings that show up in some Britts in the recent past. You didn't see that years ago and it was clearly stated in the standard that the eyes and ears had to be covered. And without a doubt when we have breeders who think it is fine to have, breed, and run oversize dogs that we have left the field wide open to crossbreeding. And people being people there are those to quickly take advantage of just such an opening. It is hard to explain the lack of integrity but the lure of winning and money just completely overrides any thought of performing within the rules. Oh well, things sure do change.

Just another sign of advanced age,

Ezzy

[Dirty Dawger]

I personally don't agree with the statement that, "If big running is good and bigger running is better and huge running is best." Some people would rather hunt birds than dog(s).
More-often-than-not, a bigger running dog requires a more "hands-on" or in the least, experienced handler and/or a significant investment in technology so that at the end of the day, you go home with your dog. Hey, whatever floats your boat BUT huge running does not directly translate into greater success afield unless you are horseback trialing.
There are hunters that enjoy a relaxed hunt with their canine hunting buddy - a QUIET walk through the woods - a brace of birds in the bag that will make good table fare. They don't want to work at it. It's why they took the day off work.
That's why there's something out there for us all. The issue is when a chap acquires a Brittany, Vizsla, or GSP in search of a less independent hunting companion and gets an AA pointer whose only similarity to a Brittany is the appearance! The whole point of having a selection is that there should be differences - even if subtle ones - within that selection. If not, we should ALL own pointers/setters.
What far too many people end up with are "other" breeds that are hybridized yet on their best day are quasi-pointers. ????

[chiendog]

Yes, of course for a hunter, finding the right dog that has the right range/speed for you and the game and terrain you hunt is essential. My comment of 'if big running is good, bigger running is better and huge running is even better still' was meant to underline an almost inevitable side effect of any kind of competition. For example, in the show ring, really, really long coats are the result of that sort of slippery slope and one of the reasons why show bred and field bred lines in longhaired breeds such as setters, springers etc. look so vastly different. There are even rumours of show breeders breeding Afghan hounds into Irish Setter lines to get more coat, because at one time long coats were good, longer coats better and super long coats even better still. Similar things occur in terms of overall size. In a lot of breeds, the show lines are huge compared to the field bred lines because (for whatever reason) bigger dogs seem to catch the eye of the judges more than smaller dogs. And on and on it goes.

Basically, competition can (and often does) lead to a sort of 'arms race' as breeders attempt to one up the competition in one or more aspect. On the other hand, competition can (and often does) lead to very useful improvements in our dogs. Personally, as a hunter, I will always look for dogs out of proven (by field trials or hunt test) stock. And while I don't need or want the kind of speed and range that the top of the line trial dogs must have to compete and win, I do appreciate the huge amounts of desire and natural ability they transmit to their offspring. And since the majority of their offspring usually don't have as much range or speed, they end up being really good dogs for the average hunter.

But I understand what you are saying. I too like a dog that I can just take hunting and enjoy time in the field with. I currently have three such dogs and I love the way they hunt. I got them from breeders who aim to breed dogs that are easy to handle, easy to enjoy (but who also rely on trials and tests to keep their stock far above average in terms of natural ability). But I also have one that is a freakin rocket. I love the dog, and he thrills the heck out of me in the field, but hunting with him is like riding a bucking bronco. Not exactly a 'zen' experience

[Dirty Dawger]

chiendog, I'm more like you than not. I need a dog that thrills me from the moment I release her/him until I call "time" and not JUST when they're on point - a handful for most but I've been doing this a long time and was weaned on horseback trials. But that isn't the point I was trying to make. If you buy a mini-van, you don't want to get 100 feet from the dealer when it turns into a super-charged hot rod. You don't want to buy a pick-up truck and it too turns into a super-charged hot rod. ??? If you want a hot rod you buy a hot rod. If you don't want one and need a pick up truck, you should get what you expected.
I've seen GSPs that are GSPs by name alone! It is grossly misleading and does a huge disservice to those that want an actual GSP. What's the point? Buy a pointer and you'll get a pointer by name, form and function.
Again, I'm not casting stones because I contributed to this homogenization with Britts, GSPs, and a Gordon that Sherry Ebert said, "was too much dog" for the Gordon Nationals. To quote her, "That's the first AA Gordon I've ever seen." Where this Gordon ran he was destined only to find native sharptails and not the quail planted on either side of the horsepath. I did my part. ..........doesn't make it right.
You can ride high in a saddle with a mandatory scout, or you can have a leisurely walk with a partner that I as impassioned as you about the outdoors, nature, bird hunting. That's why there's something out there for most of us and why not ALL birds dogs should be pointers or setters with various tail lengths.

[chiendog]

Sorry, my last post was not very clear. What I meant to say is that I now actually prefer a more relaxing experience with my dogs. I like dogs with a medium range and medium pace. The one hot rod dog I have is a thrill machine and he is fun to hunt with, but I actually prefer hunting with my more moderate pace/range dogs. But I hear what you are saying. There are lines in many breeds today that are way beyond what the original specs called for in terms of range and speed. On the other hand, in those same breeds there are also more moderate lines , and that is a good thing. With a bit of homework, a guy can find the style he likes, whether it be comfortable foot hunting dog or a rip snorting horizon hunter. The key is to fit the dog to your tastes and comfort zone. Even in Bracco's there are lines that are more extreme than others. I watched some in field trials in Italy that ran pretty darn bit. They would make casts of 3-400 meters (at a trot/gallop) to either side of the handler. But the majority of Braccos will be a bit closer working than that and not as full throttle in terms of their trot/gallop.

[Dirty Dawger]

Chiendog, I hear you. Range and pace are most often determined by environment/habitat. True field trial pointers/setters have an elevated aspect of independence. That of itself is what crossing pointers and setters to other breeds has brought to the table, among other traits too. But it's this independence that comes naturally to the pointer/setter (and now other breeds because of the crosses) that distinguishes the more independent dog that MUST have a more capable handler perhaps even a helper/assistant just to run him! What does the chap that bought a GSP (or Britt or Vizsla, etc.) do because he wants a "GSP" but thinks his dog a scatter-brained renegade?!?!? Cook him with a collar, buy a GPS, enlist a pro trainer....
Furthermore, his son loves the dog but even worse the dog and his wife are inseparable! Does he lie to them and say he lost the dog? Does he just say, "To heck with the wife and kids, I'm getting rid of this "bleep"!" Does he bitch at the breeder that mislead him? Does he get yet another dog and hope he's more lucky this time? ....wow.
It just ain't right.

[chiendog]

What does the chap that bought a GSP (or Britt or Vizsla, etc.) do because he wants a "GSP" but thinks his dog a scatter-brained renegade?!?!?

Well, it's a tough call for the Chap and I would not want to be in his position. About the only thing I can suggest is that next time he get a dog, he do a bit more homework. Every hunter needs, first and foremost, to find a breeder that is breeding the kind of dog with the range and pace that suits his wants/needs. That is why I always tell folks who write to me about what breed they should get (since my book was published, I get that question a LOT), that the most important thing to do before getting a pup is to make sure they can find a breeder that has dogs that will suit them. If not, find another breed. No use trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

So the best breeder is the one with which you see eye to eye, even better is a breeder that hunts similar game in similar terrain to yours and has similar goals. Even if you find such a breeder that is breeding a different breed than the one you want, it may be a better fit. In any case, in breeds like the GSP, Britt or Vizsla, there are dogs of just about every stripe. But it is up the the puppy purchaser to do his/her due diligence and find the right breeder, with the right style of dog for him/her. With a bit of homework and patience, you can find a dog in any of those breeds (and some others) that would be a perfect fit for an 80 year old hunter with a bum leg or a 25 year old horseback field trialer... and everything in between. The keys are homework and patience.

[Dirty Dawger]

You \re right on my friend. But some first time buyers or youngsters joining our beloved sport "think" they did their homework. Heck, "the breeder" said their MULTIPLE champions are gorgeous AND they have their "junior field title" to prove they are hunters.
Other breeders are going to tell this newby what he should be looking for and it's what they have right there, multiple horseback trial champion that I referred to above that by-the-way, doesn't retrieve either.
Britts, GPSs, Vizslas, etc. were bred to do these things (work to the foot handler/gun, retrieve, etc.) as natural ability traits. Most pointer/setters were not. I'm not saying pointers setters don't retrieve, just that they weren't designed to. The casual bird hunter would prefer his dog retrieve.
Most every trial no longer requires a retrieve. How is that inuring their natural ability as per what they are supposed to do?
In Britain, a Lab that doesn't not have a natural retrieve is typically "removed" from the breeding program. Most American Labrador RETRIEVERS are trained to retrieve.

[Trekmoor]

I am in the process of calming my 2 years old Brittany bitch down a bit when hunting woodlands. Her normal hunting "style" is slash and burn which is great out on a wide open snipe bog or moor but not so good in fairly thick woodlands. She has bumped pheasants in the woods that I think a slower moving dog would probably have pointed. The bumps are not always caused by an inability to scent birds before they flush, they are also caused by the crashing of the groundcover as she tries to move through it fast. The birds being hunted at the moment are the survivors of last seasons shooting and they are extremely wary, they flush at the first signs of danger .....or run off as fast and as far as they can.

I think this has been beneficial for my bitch , she is now considerably more careful when hunting in woodlands. Dogs are good at adapting to conditions if it gets birds in front of their noses. I have never tried doing this with a really hard going pointer or setter so would a "horseback trial" pointer or setter adapt in the same way or is their breeding to run fast and far just too strong to make adapting fairly easily possible ?

Bill T.

[cjhills]

You \re right on my friend. But some first time buyers or youngsters joining our beloved sport "think" they did their homework. Heck, "the breeder" said their MULTIPLE champions are gorgeous AND they have their "junior field title" to prove they are hunters.
Other breeders are going to tell this newby what he should be looking for and it's what they have right there, multiple horseback trial champion that I referred to above that by-the-way, doesn't retrieve either.
Britts, GPSs, Vizslas, etc. were bred to do these things (work to the foot handler/gun, retrieve, etc.) as natural ability traits. Most pointer/setters were not. I'm not saying pointers setters don't retrieve, just that they weren't designed to. The casual bird hunter would prefer his dog retrieve.
Most every trial no longer requires a retrieve. How is that inuring their natural ability as per what they are supposed to do?
In Britain, a Lab that doesn't not have a natural retrieve is typically "removed" from the breeding program. Most American Labrador RETRIEVERS are trained to retrieve.

The Forum must be evolving. I used to get a lot of insults for a post such as this.
I hope the Bracco Italiano breeders do not try to change them. we have different breeds for a reason.
When we breed designer dogs to compete in specialized venues the breed overall loses something. One man's idea of better is not everybody's. I have dogs that will range 1,000 yards in open country. They will cue off me and go with me but I do not believe I handle them at that distance. Outcrossing to the big running breeds was not by itself and improvement.
When the Gsp breed started in America, I believe the Mn Gsp club was the original GSPCA, they wanted the name to be " German Shorthaired Pointer and Retriever" but AKC thought a dog could not do both.
I have never seen a foot bird hunter, whether casual or serious, who did not want their dog to retrieve.
Bigger is not necessarily better and I have not met one person who wants a family bird dog that has 1,000 yard range or that you need to spend A years income on training. Most want a natural reasonable range, point, honor and retrieve naturally. All of which the original GSP was bred to do. This is what myself and most of the breeders I know and deal with strive for. We have greatly improved the temperament in most cases. These are medium range dogs who are exciting, stylish and fun to hunt over. They also meet you at the vehicle when it is time to go home......................Cj

[crackerd]

...In Britain, a Lab that doesn't not have a natural retrieve is typically "removed" from the breeding program. Most American Labrador RETRIEVERS are trained to retrieve.

The Forum must be evolving. I used to get a lot of insults for a post such as this.

The quoted excerpt of "a post such as this" is so preposterous, nobody would bother wasting insult on it.

Per your post, cj, the original naming intent of the Minn. club is borne out by GSPs (and GWPs and spinoni among others) today being eligible for AKC retriever tests. Not that many of them have shown up in the 3-4 years they've had hunt test eligibility, but the opportunity's there.

MG

[chiendog]

I have never tried doing this with a really hard going pointer or setter so would a "horseback trial" pointer or setter adapt in the same way or is their breeding to run fast and far just too strong to make adapting fairly easily possible ?
Bill T.

I've had friends bring their huge running field trial Pointers and Setters to hunt with me in the fall and they adapt fairly quickly when we run them in the woods for woodcock and grouse. And my friend Colvin Davis trains and runs horseback Pointers and setters up here in the summer months. He's won more field trials and championships than you can shake a stick at and was even inducted into the bird dog hall of fame a couple of years ago. So if anyone has hard going horseback dogs, its him. Yet in the winter months, he runs those very same all-age dogs for clients shooting quail down in Alabama. The dogs adapt, and work closer and handle nicely in the piney woods and smaller fields. In fact, they actually work with cocker spaniels at the same time. The Pointers run, find and point the game and the cockers do the flushing and picking up. So yes, I would say that hard going Pointers and setters can adapt.

[cjhills]

...In Britain, a Lab that doesn't not have a natural retrieve is typically "removed" from the breeding program. Most American Labrador RETRIEVERS are trained to retrieve.

The Forum must be evolving. I used to get a lot of insults for a post such as this.

The quoted excerpt of "a post such as this" is so preposterous, nobody would bother wasting insult on it.

Per your post, cj, the original naming intent of the Minn. club is borne out by GSPs (and GWPs and spinoni among others) today being eligible for AKC retriever tests. Not that many of them have shown up in the 3-4 years they've had hunt test eligibility, but the opportunity's there.

MG

As usual you are totally misinterpreting my post and quoting the least important part. it May be preposterous to you but breeding the natural retrieve out of gun dogs because they can be trained to do it is preposterous to me.
The intent of my posts was to point out that we are losing some of what GSPs were originally bred for And in my opinion it is not bettering the breed.
I am not sure you were there for the original naming of the GSPCMN But what we had in mind was not a field trial or hunt test retriever, it was simply a dog which would run out or swim out and get the bird you shoot. It had absolutely Nothing do do with retriever trials and allowing pointers in retriever trials and test has nothing to do with intent.

[crackerd]

The preposterous part is what's claimed about Labs - *you* are misinterpreting that. Who is breeding "the natural retrieve" out of gundogs" that *you* find preposterous?

MG

[cjhills]

Myself and my training friends see Many more GSPs without a natural retrieve. We have more puppy buyers every year who are not interested in a natural retrieve because they can train for it.
IMO the more I can get naturally the better I like it.
If we can train for every thing we might as well have one breed and train the dog to do what we want. Is there any reason to try to breed better dogs and how would they be better. Maybe tougher so they can handle the training.
Incidentally the first Gsp trial was in MN. 70 years ago the dogs retrieved then. The last trial I attended three of the top four dogs in open gun dog retriever stakes could not do a very simple set up retrieve. Three places were withheld. I rest my case.
The point was let the Braccos be Braccos there are enough pointers and setters.............Cj

[crackerd]

Myself and my training friends see Many more GSPs without a natural retrieve. We have more puppy buyers every year who are not interested in a natural retrieve because they can train for it.
IMO the more I can get naturally the better I like it.
If we can train for every thing we might as well have one breed and train the dog we to do what we want.
Incidentally the first Gsp trial was in MN. 70 years ago the dogs retrieved then. The last trial I went to three of the top four dogs couldn't do a very simple set up retrieve. Three places were withheld..............Cj

Point taken - for GSPs. Reckon what kind of rebuttal you'll get on this board to that point? As for withholding places at a trial, maybe Bill (Trekmoor), who started this thread, can tell you how they withheld not just placements, but the trial itself for versatile breeds in the UK for what, Bill, 17 years without staging it?

MG

[chiendog]

If there are more and more GSPs in your area that don't have a natural retrieve, then the solution is pretty simple for anyone seeking a pup that will have a ton of natural retrieve. Find a breeder who produces such dogs. If there isn't one in your local area, look a bit further afield. GSPs with a ton of natural retrieve are not hard to find. The GSP is the most popular continental pointing dog on the planet, bred in just about every flavour imaginable and widely available across all of North America, Europe and beyond. If you want a 'classic' GSP, bred exactly, to the letter, as they should be according to the parent club in the breed's original homeland, get a DK (deutsch kurzhaar). If you want one that has a bit more North American flavour look at lines that have done well in NAVHDA. Dogs from those sources are highly likely to have all the natural retrieve anyone could want.

[Trekmoor]

Hi MG. It is true, the top placings are fairly regularly withheld in British H.P.R. (hunt-point-retrieve) trials. They are also sometimes withheld in our spaniel and retriever trials. Our dogs are expected to be the best dogs at the trial AND to meet the standard of overall work the judges have in their heads. If they do not meet the judges expectations then I have seen ALL the placings being withheld and perhaps just a couple of Diploma's of Merit awarded .

To my way of thinking, and I have had a few Diploma's of Merit, these awards are the equivalent of the judges telling me straight ...." the work was good but not good enough.....better luck next time !"

Some 17 to 20 years ago our K.C. was getting numerous reports of some "funny" goings on at our H.P.R. trials. These reports were "proved" to most of the rest of us when someone made a film of one of our Championships for the HPR breeds. We saw some pretty awful dog work and maybe some dubious decisions made by the judges too. I was not at that trial but I did qualify a Brittany and a GSP for two earlier Championships. My dogs were awarded "Commendations of Merit" at those two trials which failed to cheer me up much ! I had seen dogs go out of control while hunting , dogs only just called back in when they made run-ins of several yards on fallen game. Handlers shouting at their dogs for not doing as instructed and at least one handler who had to manhandle his dog into the correct "line" for a blind retrieve that should have been a simple mark .....if the dog hadn't been elsewhere ! One of those handlers was given a place.
It was at that trial that I made up my mind to not compete in them again ....... I think I may have mumbled something about me not casting any more pearls before swine !

Anyway , our K.C. got wind of what was going on and cancelled any more HPR Championships for about 17 years ! The K.C. also sent scrutineers to several "ordinary" HPR trials for a few years and those scrutineers were recruited from the ranks of the spaniel and retriever field trial judges . It was very noticeable that the awarding of 1st., 2nd and 3rd places in HPR trials took a sharp downward swerve when those men began visiting HPR trials.

I once got so annoyed at watching birds being crunched by dogs at an Open HPR trial and still being kept in the trial, that when it was my dogs turn to run and she came back with a hen pheasant runner still very much alive and feather perfect , I sort of lost control of my mouth and said to the judges as I handed the bird over to them ...... " I'm terribly sorry but you will have to kill this one yourself !" The judges made no reply but I did not win the trial ..... one of the hard-mouthed dogs did and thus became a Field Trial Champion ! :roll:

Things improved following the appointment of scrutineers by the K.C. but I hear they are sometimes slipping back to the "old school tie" system. I am talking only about the HPR trials where all this is concerned. I have never competed in a spaniel trial, all I have done with spaniels is to win a few tests. I did compete in several Retriever trials and only once did I feel I'd definitely been under a "bent" judge.

Bill T.

[Dirty Dawger]

Crackerd, I am entitled to have an opinion just like everyone else on this forum. Here is the difference between you and I. If I don't agree with a post, I don't attack the source.
As per the subject at hand, I have extracted my observations over a period of 30+ years, numerous trials and tests, did my first judging assignment (horseback trial) in 1982 and will be doing my next in a month. I've seen more dogs in a weekend than some bird hunters have in their lifetime. So, I have a palate that is unique to those years around dogs BUT I know it is not for everyone. The kind of dog I personally enjoy is not the kind of dog most gentleman hunters or ladies would enjoy as a casual gun dog (with natural ability traits). I'm just sharing what I am seeing.
Chiendog, I met Colvin and Masie Davis at a Classic in Saskatchewan years ago. They are unparalleled ambassadors of our sport and deservedly HOF inductee(s). But to my point, they - as pros - could get pointers to do things many others couldn't. If you look up the definition of a "pro" you should see Mr. & Mrs. Davis' pics (among others).
A pro can take a hot pointer or setter (especially if they get them as young pups) and make them whatever the client asks, but once again, that's a pro.
The average weekend bird hunter is looking for an inseparable companion in the home for him/his family first and foremost along with a very capable bird hunter when required. Not all bird hunters are as relentless as I am or some others here on this forum. Hence my comments.
Yes jchills, I did expect to have a diverse opinion from some contributors here in this forum - insults "no" - diverse opinion ".....why not?"
One thing I believe cannot be disputed. Most of us come to this site because they enjoy the opportunities it brings, the exchange of ideas, the diverse opinions, the educational value.
I don't believe any at all enjoy being ridiculed or attacked, again in my opinion.
The point made that a buyer need do his homework is not as easy as you might expect. Re-reading some of the posts here-in should help you understand how diverse the definition of a gun dog specific to it's origins with inherent natural ability traits is for many.

[cjhills]

DD
Nothing I said was directed at you. My point was that people used to be called names on here routinely if they disagreed. Moron and Idiot were two of the most prominent. People who disagreed were insulted. We do not see that anymore. I consider that a good thing some do not. I was seven years old when I attended the first GSP trial and even then there was discussion about breeders going the wrong direction. Also I love the big running dogs I just do not think they are what everybody wants and bigger is not better. The nice trainable naturally talented, family type dogs are what has made GSP popular and what most people think of as a GSP.
Personally, I like to see the different breeds have somewhat different Identities and buyers have at least some idea of what to expect from the different breeds.
That is why I like to see the Braccos trot and hope they keep that. That and their looks are their identity and it should stay that way.
Chiendog also misses my point, it is not about me finding a dog that naturally retrieves, I have a kennel full. It is about breeding what made GSPs the most popular pointing breed out in the name of improving the breed...............

[chiendog]

Dirty Dawger, you are correct. Colvin and other pros can do wonders with hard charging dogs, for sure. But so can very talented amateurs like my friends who hunt with me and their hard charging dogs. But ya, I hear you. For the average guy, like me (actually I am far below average...I suck as a trainer/handler) hard charging dogs can be too hot to handle. I actually have a dog like that right now. I love him, he loves me, we have fun in the field, but I admit that he is a bit too much dog for me and that I do better with more 'moderate' dogs. And as for photos of Colvin and Maisey, have a look at some of the one's I've taken of em in this photo essay: https://cdog.exposure.co/prairie-dogs