Another puppy question...

Hdfilmmaker · Post by **Hdfilmmaker** » Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:34 pm

We have two 14 week old DDs. Male and female brother and sister. He is so easy to train he just does whatever you give him. She? Wow just like most girls...... Very very stubborn.

Do you use a stronger amount of discipline with her or coax her? I was working on heel today and everytime we'd walk past a certain point she wanted to go another way and would put the brakes on, well I kept walking and making her come with the pressure if the collar. She would cry and holler like I was killing her then she would stop and walk the way I was going. This went on for 18 minutes before she'd go by that spot without locking up. So with that stubborn nature what technique do I use for sit down and others?

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Post by **Sharon** » Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:47 pm

I don't think it is "like most girls". My last two female setters were a dream to train.

Consistency and reward work well with a stubborn dog.

( Welcome to the forum.

)

edit: the word female was added

Hdfilmmaker · Post by **Hdfilmmaker** » Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:59 pm

Thank you for the welcome. I do reward the dogs when they do wants asked. At this age I'll do clicker for "mark" and then give a treat 3 out 5 times and then just give praise, then once a week they'll get a treat. But she doesn't do anything asked willingly. She puts the brakes on and will not move. I know she knows whats being asked of her.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:37 am

They're babies; bribe her. Treats will get you further than discipline right now.

greg jacobs · Post by **greg jacobs** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 5:58 am

To strict of obedience can take take things out of the pointing breeds that you may not want to remove.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:58 am

Just a suspicion here:
Littermate syndrom. One dog is nearly always less responsive to people and looks to the other dog instead. Often they will be friendly, jumpy and obnoxious and seem people focused because they are so excited around people, but the concept of communicating with you is less understood. They do not watch for cues, and listen to commands. Train her alone and start at the beginning a if she was 7 weeks and just came home. Play with her, and spend tim with her alone. Let her drag a short CC, build retrieve drive. Introduce water. Introduce field romps dragging that CC. Introduce birds dragging that CC. Take away her play time with her brother until she has confidence on her own, looks for you in the field, plays retrieve with you a little, and has at least 3 "tricks" or commands and is doing pretty well with them. Not Here command. I mean train Here, but don't count it as one of your 3 because it's a shaping deal that takes time and does not have a clear "aha" moment for a puppy. usually anyway. I train Place (place board or platform), Spin, and Touch (a Targeting cue) first usually. Leave it, Sit, Heel position, Stand/Whoa (up out of a sit) next .... you don't have to follow my way I just am throwing out ideas.
When she is working well with you and making progress give her an hour or two a day to play with her brother. Probably will take a week or so.

Please do not overdo the obedience with pressure. If a puppy that young is crying and hollering it is because they do not understand or are afraid. Maybe you are just trying leash walking or restraining them but if they do not trust the situation to the extend that they scream and flail, you need to introduce it more slowly and gently.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:05 pm

and Heel POSITION is fine to train a puppy with treats. But don't do walking at heel yet. It should be way on down the list after field confidence, and bird time, unless you really want a "porch sweeper" pointing dog. Puppies that age can learn it but only if they are excelling at everything else and bold confident puppies that are very early to mature or you are very comfortable with working with gentle puppy techniques. Which is more rare than most people want to believe.

oregon woodsmoke · Post by **oregon woodsmoke** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:53 pm

18 minutes is far too long to work the heel exercise with any dog, except maybe a battle hardened mature 5 year old police dog who is working the job at the time. Heel takes a lot of mental concentration from a dog and it is tiring.

With a pup that age, we heel for no more than a few seconds. We walk on the leash with nice manners, and then I'll order "heel" and we will march smartly, in formation for 20-30 feet, no more, and then they are told they are good and we go back to just walking on the leash with nice manners. After that is a different exercise and then maybe a bit more leash walking with another 20-30 feet of precise heeling.

You do have to be persistent and insist, but before you can do that, the pup must understand what you want. It doesn't do any good to bully when the dog is confused. Getting tough is not what makes it clear to the pup.

oregon woodsmoke · Post by **oregon woodsmoke** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:03 pm

I have no idea how you are training, but I teach "controlled walking" before the heel. It's a game. I laugh and the pup grins. I try to make a turn and get away from the pup while they are on the leash. They get really focused on following me and not letting me get away, (because they give themselves a jerk on the neck of I change directions and they don't; at which point I laugh and say what happened? Hurry up!). After the pup learns that he must keep an eye on the ditzy person who can't decide which way he is going, it is very easy to transition into a heel

Post by **mnaj_springer** » Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:57 pm

14 weeks? Relax. Have some fun before worry about discipline for following commands.

Hdfilmmaker · Post by **Hdfilmmaker** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:18 am

mountaindogs wrote:Just a suspicion here:
Littermate syndrom. One dog is nearly always less responsive to people and looks to the other dog instead. Often they will be friendly, jumpy and obnoxious and seem people focused because they are so excited around people, but the concept of communicating with you is less understood. They do not watch for cues, and listen to commands. Train her alone and start at the beginning a if she was 7 weeks and just came home. Play with her, and spend tim with her alone. Let her drag a short CC, build retrieve drive. Introduce water. Introduce field romps dragging that CC. Introduce birds dragging that CC. Take away her play time with her brother until she has confidence on her own, looks for you in the field, plays retrieve with you a little, and has at least 3 "tricks" or commands and is doing pretty well with them. Not Here command. I mean train Here, but don't count it as one of your 3 because it's a shaping deal that takes time and does not have a clear "aha" moment for a puppy. usually anyway. I train Place (place board or platform), Spin, and Touch (a Targeting cue) first usually. Leave it, Sit, Heel position, Stand/Whoa (up out of a sit) next .... you don't have to follow my way I just am throwing out ideas.
When she is working well with you and making progress give her an hour or two a day to play with her brother. Probably will take a week or so.

Please do not overdo the obedience with pressure. If a puppy that young is crying and hollering it is because they do not understand or are afraid. Maybe you are just trying leash walking or restraining them but if they do not trust the situation to the extend that they scream and flail, you need to introduce it more slowly and gently.

"Mountaindogs", This makes the most sense to me. I had the feeling she was relying on her littermate to help her understand. He was easy cause we had him the first three weeks by himself. So, I will start working with her on commands with him not around.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:36 am

The guide dog people have said for years that they have never had two littermates raised together where they both made guide dogs. From my own experience with bird dogs you can get by with it but thy need to be separated in the kennel as well as during any and all training. In othr words make them forget they are even related.

Ezzy

Steve007 · Post by **Steve007** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 3:29 pm

Raising two puppies at a time is not the easiest thing to do. If this is a choice, you may wish to reconsider.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:39 pm

If you are near me I would be happy to help you get started. Puppies are turning into my specialty. If not, find a NAVHDA club nearby. Most train monthly and even with the little puppies it's a good time to get some bird exposure, water play, and hear 101 different ways to train our dog

just like on here. But in the case of NAVHDA you can at least see the 101 ways in action and the products of their training.
best of luck!

Hdfilmmaker · Post by **Hdfilmmaker** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:11 pm

Yea, I'm a little far from you. In the Fort Worth area.

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Hdfilmmaker · Post by **Hdfilmmaker** » Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:53 pm

Steve007 wrote:Raising two puppies at a time is not the easiest thing to do. If this is a choice, you may wish to reconsider.

Dude just cause things are hard is no reason too throw in the towel. These two will make the best hunting/gun dogs you've ever seen. Their parents are world class stock. They'll be fine. After two days of being in the field on birds she has made great strides towards her confidence level.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:41 am

Hdfilmmaker wrote:
Steve007 wrote:Raising two puppies at a time is not the easiest thing to do. If this is a choice, you may wish to reconsider.
Dude just cause things are hard is no reason too throw in the towel. These two will make the best hunting/gun dogs you've ever seen. Their parents are world class stock. They'll be fine. After two days of being in the field on birds she has made great strides towards her confidence level.

If I remember right, it was you who asked about problems you were having with one of the two 14 week old littermate puppies you have. During the discussion that has taken place it has been noted that it is very hard to train two pups at the same time and is even harder with littermates. No one said it can't be done but from experience we also know that one or the other will have some problems and that is not really fair to the pups. Steve, while trying to help made the comment,

Raising two puppies at a time is not the easiest thing to do. If this is a choice, you may wish to reconsider.

Sounds like a very nice comment and not bad advice either. Maybe I am wrong but your answer sounded like you misread or understood what Steve was saying as he didn't suggest you quit but he did say if you have the option do not try to train both at the same time you might want to change your mind. Up to you of course, but that was good advice. I am sure you will have an interesting experience and your results will probably hinge on what level of training you will be satisfied with. Hope it works out and I am sure you will have an interesting couple of years and I will also bet you will have a different prospective of dog training in a few years than you do now. It happens to all of us. Just remember to try and be fair to both pups without letting the comparison of one against the other sway you too much. The two started as different dogs and will end up far more different than they started.

Good luck, Ezzy

Hdfilmmaker · Post by **Hdfilmmaker** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:20 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Hdfilmmaker wrote:
Steve007 wrote:Raising two puppies at a time is not the easiest thing to do. If this is a choice, you may wish to reconsider.
Dude just cause things are hard is no reason too throw in the towel. These two will make the best hunting/gun dogs you've ever seen. Their parents are world class stock. They'll be fine. After two days of being in the field on birds she has made great strides towards her confidence level.
If I remember right, it was you who asked about problems you were having with one of the two 14 week old littermate puppies you have. During the discussion that has taken place it has been noted that it is very hard to train two pups at the same time and is even harder with littermates. No one said it can't be done but from experience we also know that one or the other will have some problems and that is not really fair to the pups. Steve, while trying to help made the comment,
Raising two puppies at a time is not the easiest thing to do. If this is a choice, you may wish to reconsider.
Sounds like a very nice comment and not bad advice either. Maybe I am wrong but your answer sounded like you misread or understood what Steve was saying as he didn't suggest you quit but he did say if you have the option do not try to train both at the same time you might want to change your mind. Up to you of course, but that was good advice. I am sure you will have an interesting experience and your results will probably hinge on what level of training you will be satisfied with. Hope it works out and I am sure you will have an interesting couple of years and I will also bet you will have a different prospective of dog training in a few years than you do now. It happens to all of us. Just remember to try and be fair to both pups without letting the comparison of one against the other sway you too much. The two started as different dogs and will end up far more different than they started.

Good luck, Ezzy

Yes perhaps the misunderstanding was having two to train. I took what he said add don't train two dogs. I totally train them at separate times each day. My question was her personality and her lack of wanting to listen, but that was answered in limiting how much interacting with the two of them together until they both learn to look to us for communication. Right now the female relies on the male. After all day Saturday working with the local navhda on birds and water seperatly she is starting to get her confidence. And btw we are limiting their play time together to just an hour a day at the moment.

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Timewise65 · Post by **Timewise65** » Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:45 pm

All dogs mature at different rates. Maturity levels have a lot to do with how well a pup responds to initial training. Be patient and use no negative reinforcement with a dog that young. I would never put pressure and a gun dog until they are at least 6 months, and they only if they are training well.

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