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Heel/Sit Issue

Heel/Sit Issue

Postby SouthernTied » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:19 am

Ok backstory to begin. My roommate owns/runs a kennel for retrievers. We have everything from English cockers to a Grand lab. He doesn't really care for anything other than labs and my personal GSPs. We like most do our training through phases. We have a GSP that finished phase 1 obedience after what felt like forever. The dog is owned by a girl who does nothing but baby him and support bad habits. After 3 months off she now wants us to force fetch him and have him running true marks. Why? Who knows. But we weren't going to turn her away. Well Monday was our first day having him back. TOTAL DISASTER. The dog will come into heck perfect. Walk in heck but refuses to sit. He will lay down and wrap around your leg. When I say refuses to sit I mean under no circumstance will he sit. If you hold his collar and force him to sit he will just drop his weight and hang there. we have worked with him the past 2 days and he will not sit. Even on whistle he will just drop and lay there. We even took as far and putting him on the training table and gave the sit command. He just flops to the ground.
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Re: Heel/Sit Issue

Postby Timewise65 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:39 am

I would be very suspect that the lady or more likely someone that thinks they are a 'trainer' used to much pressure on the dog. Maybe an e-collar, pinch collar, or 'healing stick' all great training tools but when used improperly they will ruin a potentially good dog. If it were me I would return the dog to her suggesting that he has been damaged in someway and now if fearful and not really trainable, unless you want to spend a year trying to work around his issues....

Can't save em' all.....!
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Re: Heel/Sit Issue

Postby SouthernTied » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:54 am

Timewise65 wrote:I would be very suspect that the lady or more likely someone that thinks they are a 'trainer' used to much pressure on the dog. Maybe an e-collar, pinch collar, or 'healing stick' all great training tools but when used improperly they will ruin a potentially good dog. If it were me I would return the dog to her suggesting that he has been damaged in someway and now if fearful and not really trainable, unless you want to spend a year trying to work around his issues....

Can't save em' all.....!



When he left us he was jam up. We never touched an e collar or pinch collar. It was a slip lead and heeling stick. I introduce e collar usually during force fetch. I spoke with her this morning. When he would lay at her feet she would baby him and try to lay on top of him. So now he thinks "if I lay down I get affection" I guess to him it's like another dog running to another trainer thinking it will stop the pressure. I found another issue was during the time he wasn't with us he was staying at a friends with another GSP. The owner of said GSP has ZERO control of her dog. This one has absolutely no training or manners. We are giving the one we have this week. If he doesn't want to cooperate we are sending him back and refunding her money. It's not worth it to spend 2 hours teaching this dog to sit when we have other dogs that take 15-20 minutes and produce.
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Re: Heel/Sit Issue

Postby cjhills » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:08 pm

This is very easy to fix. Do not let him come all the way in to you. Make him respect your space and make him stand up. Basically make him respect you. Sometimes you have to be pretty rough. Once he stays out of your space and respects you training can proceed as you would normally train sit. It takes a little extra time, maybe a week, but you just confuse him trying to train him on a table until he understands he can not get attention by dropping and going limp.
You might be surprised how quick things proceed when he gets what you want...Cj
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Re: Heel/Sit Issue

Postby SouthernTied » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:35 pm

cjhills wrote:This is very easy to fix. Do not let him come all the way in to you. Make him respect your space and make him stand up. Basically make him respect you. Sometimes you have to be pretty rough. Once he stays out of your space and respects you training can proceed as you would normally train sit. It takes a little extra time, maybe a week, but you just confuse him trying to train him on a table until he understands he can not get attention by dropping and going limp.
You might be surprised how quick things proceed when he gets what you want...Cj



I didn't clarify. He lays down. No matter where you give him the command. Even with space. Whistle sit. He still lays own.
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Re: Heel/Sit Issue

Postby Steve007 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:19 pm

Try using food, and teach him to go from a "down" to a "sit" , Use a "hup" command if he responds poorly to "sit". If he's in a down already, have him lift up to a hup command to reach for a GOOD treat. Try cheese. Forget an automatic sit for the moment. Just switch around the order to a down followed by a sit until he thoroughly figures it out. And just to cover your bases, watch him to make his hips and back legs are OK.
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Re: Heel/Sit Issue

Postby polmaise » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:51 pm

SouthernTied wrote:
When he left us he was jam up. We never touched an e collar or pinch collar. It was a slip lead and heeling stick. I introduce e collar usually during force fetch.
This one has absolutely no training or manners. We are giving the one we have this week. If he doesn't want to cooperate we are sending him back and refunding her money. It's not worth it to spend 2 hours teaching this dog to sit when we have other dogs that take 15-20 minutes and produce.

This is all just weird .
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Re: Heel/Sit Issue

Postby Trekmoor » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:07 pm

I agree, something other than too much petting has happened to that dog.

I'd probably change the vocal command to sit, the visual command to sit and the whistle command to sit. I think the commands already in use have been "poisoned."

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Re: Heel/Sit Issue

Postby cjhills » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:20 pm

SouthernTied wrote:
cjhills wrote:This is very easy to fix. Do not let him come all the way in to you. Make him respect your space and make him stand up. Basically make him respect you. Sometimes you have to be pretty rough. Once he stays out of your space and respects you training can proceed as you would normally train sit. It takes a little extra time, maybe a week, but you just confuse him trying to train him on a table until he understands he can not get attention by dropping and going limp.
You might be surprised how quick things proceed when he gets what you want...Cj



I didn't clarify. He lays down. No matter where you give him the command. Even with space. Whistle sit. He still lays own.

When lays down pick him up and make him stand no matter how limp he is.
Do not give him the sit Command make him stand up. When he is standing up Stroke him and praise him. Forget sit for awhile train with him standing and use whoa. When he learns there is no benefit to laying down he will quit......Cj
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Re: Heel/Sit Issue

Postby polmaise » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:10 pm

I smell something :)
SouthernTied wrote:I missed your line about collar during force fetch. I used light pressure with ear pinch at first then moved into just collar. My issue is my GSPs are very "emotionally" sensitive but have a very high tolerance in other aspects. When running certain drills it takes 2 Dogtras to even get a correction out of one.

SouthernTied wrote:I introduced the collar pretty young. Never used stimulation until basic obedience was solid. I used the beep/vibrate as a que starting out. Then it was a light nick with commands. I didn't really introduce true collar pressure until force fetch.

SouthernTied wrote:His and my dog are a month apart. My dog being the younger of the two. Mine is 6mo his is 7mo. I got a program outline from a very well known trainer and work with him for 15-30 minutes a day. I understand mine is a puppy so I am very patient. My buddy is very impatient and uses a lot of negative reinforcement. You can tell the difference when working our dogs together. His is very timid and anytime he feels he didn't do something exactly as expected he will try to hide.

SouthernTied wrote:I have been working on fetching and back to heel then walk away and come back to heel before taking the bumper. My only issue is when he is hyped up he will heel then try to snatch away. Still no pressure. My buddy uses a lot of pressure with his GSP and his dog literally shuts down.
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Re: Heel/Sit Issue

Postby Sharon » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:05 pm

" When he would lay at her feet she would baby him and try to lay on top of him. So now he thinks "if I lay down I get affection". " quote

That might explain it. DEfinately use a new command word - not "sit". I feel sorry for this dog. He's probably confused totally.
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Re: Heel/Sit Issue

Postby gonehuntin' » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:24 pm

He's B.S.ing you trainers the same way he did the owner. You guys are professionals? Don't put up with the dog's crap. Put a choke collar on dog and heel him. Command SIT and if he collapses, step on his front feet, command NO, SIT! And simultaneously jerk him up. Every time he lays down, step on his front feet and jerk him up. It's an easy problem to fix. I'm surprised a Professional would even ask about it on this forum. When he was initially obedience trained, he should have been through heel-sit-whoa-here at that time. Start over. Re-work obedience in all phases then proceed to force. Don't run him on marks, which I doubt he'll do well on until he is through force.

Seems to me there's about 64 parts missing to this story.
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Re: Heel/Sit Issue

Postby polmaise » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:34 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Seems to me there's about 64 parts missing to this story.

Then some !
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Re: Heel/Sit Issue

Postby SouthernTied » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:57 am

gonehuntin' wrote:He's B.S.ing you trainers the same way he did the owner. You guys are professionals? Don't put up with the dog's crap. Put a choke collar on dog and heel him. Command SIT and if he collapses, step on his front feet, command NO, SIT! And simultaneously jerk him up. Every time he lays down, step on his front feet and jerk him up. It's an easy problem to fix. I'm surprised a Professional would even ask about it on this forum. When he was initially obedience trained, he should have been through heel-sit-whoa-here at that time. Start over. Re-work obedience in all phases then proceed to force. Don't run him on marks, which I doubt he'll do well on until he is through force.

Seems to me there's about 64 parts missing to this story.


1. I never claimed to be professional by any means.
2. I asked for recommendations not rude remarks.

Anyways WE have ran him through basic obedience in more ways than one. his hips and legs are fine. We tried a different command. The dog will walk in heel fine. Whoa is fine. Stepping on feet and "forcing" him to stand doesn't solve a thing. When we had him previously he did fine. The girl didn't want to pay anymore so the took him back for 4-5 months.
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Re: Heel/Sit Issue

Postby polmaise » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:21 am

SouthernTied wrote:
1. I never claimed to be professional by any means.
2. I asked for recommendations not rude remarks.

Anyways WE have ran him through basic obedience in more ways than one. his hips and legs are fine. We tried a different command. The dog will walk in heel fine. Whoa is fine. Stepping on feet and "forcing" him to stand doesn't solve a thing. When we had him previously he did fine. The girl didn't want to pay anymore so the took him back for 4-5 months.

1. You charged the client a fee and were paid for services required of a professional
2. The only question you asked was, Why the client would want the dog to be FF and run true marks ? The rest were statements.

There is much reference in the OP with regard to (we) in this business and since your partner who is the owner and runs the show ,perhaps it would be best to direct the Girl to someone who can help.
Best advice : If one has reverted to physically forcing any dog to sit and the dog freezes it's sure fire sign that something is obviously wrong . It would either resist or comply . So continuing with physical after the collar force restraint to the training table is acting 'Un-professional' imo. You probably are also not privy to any or other training the dog has had in the 3 months away ,so that would have been My first question to the owner ,not a forum .

"Ok backstory to begin. My roommate owns/runs a kennel for retrievers. We have everything from English cockers to a Grand lab. He doesn't really care for anything other than labs and my personal GSPs. We like most do our training through phases. We have a GSP that finished phase 1 obedience after what felt like forever. The dog is owned by a girl who does nothing but baby him and support bad habits. After 3 months off she now wants us to force fetch him and have him running true marks. Why? Who knows. But we weren't going to turn her away. Well Monday was our first day having him back. TOTAL DISASTER. The dog will come into heck perfect. Walk in heck but refuses to sit. He will lay down and wrap around your leg. When I say refuses to sit I mean under no circumstance will he sit. If you hold his collar and force him to sit he will just drop his weight and hang there. we have worked with him the past 2 days and he will not sit. Even on whistle he will just drop and lay there. We even took as far and putting him on the training table and gave the sit command. He just flops to the ground."
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Re: Heel/Sit Issue

Postby gonehuntin' » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:38 pm

SouthernTied wrote:Stepping on feet and "forcing" him to stand doesn't solve a thing. When we had him previously he did fine.


Really? Because that's a very easy problem to solve that many dog's try. Me thinks you two should go watch a real pro work.
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