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Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby JONOV » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:12 am

I have an 18 month GWP and I'm looking for recommendations for starting steadiness training. I'm training with a goal of running him in the NAVHDA UT test. I've also ran him in derby stakes in an AFTCA walking field trial and want to continue that as well, even if we are the only continental breed there.

I'm not concerned about any "holes" or problems I've created, although I wish he didn't learn he could catch planted quail. The other possible trap I've set for myself is "whoa" means don't move...but I've also paired it with a "down" command for sneaking on ducks, etc, and he has been known to lie down on whoa (sometimes).

As I understand it, he needs to be refined, not repaired. He has a nice point, and will let me get up to about his flank before going in for the takeout. In the limited times I've worked him on quail in the past I've let him get on point, and come up behind him and looped a cord around his flank to reposition him when he breaks, but that's been minimal.

With that said, what do you recommend that is most easily used/adapted by someone living in a suburban neighborhood (1/2 acre lots,) that's easy enough to follow along with. I probably could build a pigeon coop. I have near-as-makes-no-difference zero access to wild birds, unless I luck into some woodcock, the quail are all but gone and Grouse are hours away in the mountains.

Thanks in advance...
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby shags » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:54 am

Hopefully someone will come on to give you a detailed method for steadying. All I have is a couple of suggestions.

Don't come up from behind your dog when he's on birds. Dogs tend to want to 'help' you flush. Easier to keep them steady if you come in from the side, slightly to the front. Your body serves as a sort of block. It's not hard to use a cc on the collar so you can stop his forward movement. You won't prevent it, but you'll be able to stop it.

If you feel like you're going to be a whoa-er, the. don't pair other commands with it. If you want your dog down, command down - what's the use of stop, then down. FWIW, I can't remember the last time I used whoa around birds. The way I see it, if the dog wants to go in, and I say 'whoa' and he breaks anyway, then he's broken two rules - to stand his bird, and disobeyed a command. Much easier to use a physical correction for breaking the one stand -the-bird-rule.

Don't worry about him having learned he can catch tame quail. IME most dogs figure it out at some point anyway. I don't know of any dog ever who hasn't caught a bird he should have left alone, especially ones doing doing throw down trials.
It happens, amd it's totally fixable.
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby JONOV » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:20 am

shags wrote:Hopefully someone will come on to give you a detailed method for steadying. All I have is a couple of suggestions.

Don't come up from behind your dog when he's on birds. Dogs tend to want to 'help' you flush. Easier to keep them steady if you come in from the side, slightly to the front. Your body serves as a sort of block. It's not hard to use a cc on the collar so you can stop his forward movement. You won't prevent it, but you'll be able to stop it.

If you feel like you're going to be a whoa-er, the. don't pair other commands with it. If you want your dog down, command down - what's the use of stop, then down. FWIW, I can't remember the last time I used whoa around birds. The way I see it, if the dog wants to go in, and I say 'whoa' and he breaks anyway, then he's broken two rules - to stand his bird, and disobeyed a command. Much easier to use a physical correction for breaking the one stand -the-bird-rule.

Don't worry about him having learned he can catch tame quail. IME most dogs figure it out at some point anyway. I don't know of any dog ever who hasn't caught a bird he should have left alone, especially ones doing doing throw down trials.
It happens, amd it's totally fixable.

Thanks, my experience has been when he sees me he goes in sooner...approaching from behind I get closer. I haven't worked him on the check cord, I just lasso is flanks and restrain him and reset when he horns in. I'm not worried about the quail-catching. I see it as inevitable if you use pen raised quail, and its really hard around here to do any type of training without them.
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby shags » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:55 am

If he's trying to beat you to the bird, he doesn't know that it's your bird, not his, and that you are the boss of him.

He's young and full of himself, but you can establish the pecking order without taking the starch out of him. I set mine back until they get to where a tug on the cc will do it. Silently, calmly, firmly, no one gets upset.
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby gonehuntin' » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:14 am

First, he has to be steady to thrown bumpers. I keep them on a pinch collar for this, tell the dog whoa, throw the bumper and hang on. Don't say a word. He'll hit the end (keep the leash short), yip, and come back to your side. Don't let him have the bumper. Pick it up and repeat the process until he stays, then call his name to make the retrieve and let him make it.

Keep repeating until he has it. Now, tempt him. Throw the bumper and call another name. Only let him retrieve to his own name.

When he's doing this,repeat using clip wing pigeons. When he'll stay for a clip wing, he's ready for birds in a trap. If you don't have a launcher, use a fishing pole. Have someone shackle the bird to a tether on the rod and point the bird on your lawn. Command whoa, then have the friend flip the bird in the air with the rod, controlling it and landing it 50' from the pup. Keep working the bird closer to the pup until you can flush it and land it with a couple feet of him.

No flush it and add a shot from a 22 blank.

Now put the bird in cover and do the same thing.

Once he's 100%, take him to a game farm, HAVE SOMEONE ELSE SHOOT, and you handle the dog. It's the only way you'll ever steady him; forsake some of you're hunting time to train the dog.

Having a broke dog is a p.i.t.a. and something you have to continually reinforce. Let him lapse once and he'll do it again.
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby JONOV » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:00 am

gonehuntin' wrote:First, he has to be steady to thrown bumpers. I keep them on a pinch collar for this, tell the dog whoa, throw the bumper and hang on. Don't say a word. He'll hit the end (keep the leash short), yip, and come back to your side. Don't let him have the bumper. Pick it up and repeat the process until he stays, then call his name to make the retrieve and let him make it.

Keep repeating until he has it. Now, tempt him. Throw the bumper and call another name. Only let him retrieve to his own name.

When he's doing this,repeat using clip wing pigeons. When he'll stay for a clip wing, he's ready for birds in a trap. If you don't have a launcher, use a fishing pole. Have someone shackle the bird to a tether on the rod and point the bird on your lawn. Command whoa, then have the friend flip the bird in the air with the rod, controlling it and landing it 50' from the pup. Keep working the bird closer to the pup until you can flush it and land it with a couple feet of him.

No flush it and add a shot from a 22 blank.

Now put the bird in cover and do the same thing.

Once he's 100%, take him to a game farm, HAVE SOMEONE ELSE SHOOT, and you handle the dog. It's the only way you'll ever steady him; forsake some of you're hunting time to train the dog.

Having a broke dog is a p.i.t.a. and something you have to continually reinforce. Let him lapse once and he'll do it again.


Good to know. He'll do it for a thrown dead bird right now as we work on retrieves. I've had someone else shoot while I tell him whoa with no lead on him practicing for the duck search.

And I hear you on the " constant work-in-progress..." I know a dog (now a VC) that had already earned its prize 1 UT, that in the middle of an AKC Master Hunt test leg decided, "eff it, I'm taking it out and chasing" like a puppy in the NA test.
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby Featherfinder » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:21 pm

I don't train that way. I would - when he was VERY young - have allowed him to chase birds or bust in when I approached because he would NEVER catch the birds I use. In-other-words, the birds teach him to mind his manners. I'm just a witness, so-to-speak.
Yes, I have control over the outcome but the dog doesn't need to know that. I would casually come in from an angle (as already suggested) and allow the dog to respond accordingly. If he breaks/bumps/chases, I would let him, at first. Once he gets frustrated enough he will cat-walk into his finds. That's an indicator. From that point on - when you approach - if he moves, I would immediately let him know he screwed up - to heck with the bird!
Anything less means your dog is training you. It typically turns into stuff like, "I don't trial my dog. I just want a meat dog. Yaddayaaddayadda...."
Translation: A horrible excuse for a belligerent or poorly trained pointing dog.
Get on your horse and deal with this! As suggested, you need an assistant to flush, etc. so you can focus on your dog.
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby polmaise » Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:22 pm

JONOV wrote:I have an 18 month GWP and I'm looking for recommendations for starting steadiness training. I'm training with a goal of running him in the NAVHDA UT test. I've also ran him in derby stakes in an AFTCA walking field trial and want to continue that as well, even if we are the only continental breed there.


Thanks in advance...

What are the rules and expectations/level of accomplishment in the NAVHDA UT test?
AFTCA walking field trial , ? So what does that entail after 'Derby' ?
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby JONOV » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:42 pm

polmaise wrote:
JONOV wrote:I have an 18 month GWP and I'm looking for recommendations for starting steadiness training. I'm training with a goal of running him in the NAVHDA UT test. I've also ran him in derby stakes in an AFTCA walking field trial and want to continue that as well, even if we are the only continental breed there.


Thanks in advance...

What are the rules and expectations/level of accomplishment in the NAVHDA UT test?
AFTCA walking field trial , ? So what does that entail after 'Derby' ?

Steady to wing, shot and fall. In the UT test they do kill birds over the dogs. The dogs are also expected to retrieve to hand. I’m working on the retrieve to hand as well and feel somewhat confident I’m moving in the right direction on that front.

Mostly I’m looking at what I can/should do on both days I make it to the training field but also how I can start in a yard, in a field in a park, etc...
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby Sharon » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:59 pm

polmaise wrote:
JONOV wrote:I have an 18 month GWP and I'm looking for recommendations for starting steadiness training. I'm training with a goal of running him in the NAVHDA UT test. I've also ran him in derby stakes in an AFTCA walking field trial and want to continue that as well, even if we are the only continental breed there.


Thanks in advance...

What are the rules and expectations/level of accomplishment in the NAVHDA UT test?
AFTCA walking field trial , ? So what does that entail after 'Derby' ?


AFTCA Shooting Dog ( after Derby) Requirements etc:

Start reading about page 27

https://www.aftca.org/wp-content/upload ... actice.pdf
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby JONOV » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:09 pm

Sharon wrote:
polmaise wrote:
JONOV wrote:I have an 18 month GWP and I'm looking for recommendations for starting steadiness training. I'm training with a goal of running him in the NAVHDA UT test. I've also ran him in derby stakes in an AFTCA walking field trial and want to continue that as well, even if we are the only continental breed there.


Thanks in advance...

What are the rules and expectations/level of accomplishment in the NAVHDA UT test?
AFTCA walking field trial , ? So what does that entail after 'Derby' ?


AFTCA Shooting Dog ( after Derby) Requirements etc:

Start reading about page 27

https://www.aftca.org/wp-content/upload ... actice.pdf

Near as makes no difference same standard for steadiness
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby Featherfinder » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:45 am

JONOV, as I read this, you have a dog that has been allowed to be "unsteady" (puppy, derby, NAVHDA N/A) for 1 1/2 years. Now, you want him to be steady. My dogs are steadied when they convey they are ready. It is my goal throughout their early and formal training - not by any field trial or NAVHDA dictates.
You will likely receive a voluminous and wide ranging number of suggestions. All of which may help. One thing is for sure. You are going to have to take a firm tack now with an 18 month old GWP. My recommendation is that you solicit the aid of a knowledgeable assistant or hire someone, ASAP!
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby Trekmoor » Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:23 pm

If you train a pup/dog that any object .....bumper or bird "flying" close by is, in itself, a command to stop then no Whoa or other stop command will be needed. If you add to that a definite stop to a shot again as a stop command in it's own right , then every time a bird gets up near the dog and a shot is fired , the dog will have received two stop commands without you having to do a thing.

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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby Sharon » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:45 pm

I don't think anybody has mentioned this, but as great as wild birds are steadying to flush is something that starts in the back yard imo. I wouldn't want to start teaching a dog steadiness in a wild bird setting. I've never used it , but Is the 'barrel' still used by some?
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby polmaise » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:10 pm

The 'Barrel' is in the same stable as a 'Wing on a string' and a 'Wonder lead' .
There has to be a sequential process for any resultant behaviour ,so simply hunting a dog on game with no previous 'process' belongs in that same stable (imo) .
Yard drills and training shape discipline behaviour and basic communication between handler and dog in 'preparation' for any Game encounter.
I took the pup Vizsla 'Buddy' on his first shoot a couple of weeks ago and he inadvertently flushed a pheasant in long white grass . He had never seen a pheasant in his life before and he had never knew the scent of one before,but he knew what the stop whistle meant ,before we went out that day .He probably got startled with the flight feathers and the Rooster call' ?, well he is just a puppy , but I'm sure was re-assured by a known constant of the stop whistle and praise for doing it :wink:
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby isonychia » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:18 pm

I got the book Training with Mo, out of all the books I purchased this one is the smallest, yet it worked like a charm, training with mo and then a decent dvd on force fetching (can't remember it right now) and that was it. Of course I think I read about 6 books all together.

I'll mention I also went to Greenville, SC to see Mo one weekend when I still lived in NC, very nice guy, ran my dog and gave me some pointers.

In the end, if you want a steady dog for trials or tests it is much easier with pigeons. Pigeons stink and are good to teach basic pointing instinct but beyond that, their use isn't so much for finding wild birds but for how to behave once they do. If you "probably could build a pigeon coop" I would do it. heck, that has been half the fun for me. You need more than a 1/2 acre, any game lands nearby? Pigeons can home long distances, especially out there without accipiter species of falcons. I used to live in Winston, I feel you living in Raleigh, you are a better man than I am. You couldn't pay me enough to live in the triad again. With any luck maybe one day you will end up somewhere with good bird populations or help a few buddies buy some land and put out surrogates.
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby Sharon » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:20 pm

polmaise wrote:The 'Barrel' is in the same stable as a 'Wing on a string' and a 'Wonder lead' .
There has to be a sequential process for any resultant behaviour ,so simply hunting a dog on game with no previous 'process' belongs in that same stable (imo) .
Yard drills and training shape discipline behaviour and basic communication between handler and dog in 'preparation' for any Game encounter.
I took the pup Vizsla 'Buddy' on his first shoot a couple of weeks ago and he inadvertently flushed a pheasant in long white grass . He had never seen a pheasant in his life before and he had never knew the scent of one before,but he knew what the stop whistle meant ,before we went out that day .He probably got startled with the flight feathers and the Rooster call' ?, well he is just a puppy , but I'm sure was re-assured by a known constant of the stop whistle and praise for doing it :wink:


Not sure, but I think you agreed with me. :)
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby polmaise » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:17 pm

Sharon wrote:Not sure, but I think you agreed with me. :)

Shucks !! for someone to come right out in the open and say that , would be like heck no ! :lol: :wink:
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby oldbeek » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:24 pm

Get electronic traps and pigeons. Dog moves after establishing point launch the bird. Dog will train its self. Move and bird leaves. Same as in the field with wild birds. My Brittany will point at 40 yards from the bird. If I want to get more definition on where the bird is, I tap her on the head to have her move forward. She is rock steady on moving coveys in open grass once she establishes point. She knows moving will just put them in the air. You say traps cost to much.?? Buy them , use them then sell them on this site at a little loss.Cheaper than a trainer.
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby Featherfinder » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:11 am

oldbeek, your response sounds like launchers and pigeons are a replacement for professional training. I've seen more very promising young dogs ruined by launchers alone than you can shake a stick at. Some are on this site dealing with the aftermath. While we all started as newbies, there is a place for the self-trained dog trainer and a place for professional aid.
Amateur training methods are not ALWAYS a reflection of their training prowess. Like a pro once told me, "Your dog is simply amazing....in spite of YOU!"
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby ezzy333 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:57 am

Professional trainer is someone just like the OP that has more experience than the OP while the launcher is just a tool both can use. I don't see where anyone is saying a pro trainer can be replaced by the launcher, I never considered sending a dog to a trainer, as the minimal training most dogs need, is part of the fun of owning a dog. Maybe that was because I never consider training so that a dog could be the best it could be but I was in the camp that wanted my dog to be as good as I needed it to be. Just two different concepts that both will work and both will produce a dog that fills your need and desire. One you did and the other you bought, take your pick as to what works for you. Dogs are hard to ruin but you do need to be slow, patient, and consistent for the best results. Have fun either way.
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby isonychia » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:06 am

ezzy333 wrote:Professional trainer is someone just like the OP that has more experience than the OP while the launcher is just a tool both can use. I don't see where anyone is saying a pro trainer can be replaced by the launcher, I never considered sending a dog to a trainer, as the minimal training most dogs need, is part of the fun of owning a dog. Maybe that was because I never consider training so that a dog could be the best it could be but I was in the camp that wanted my dog to be as good as I needed it to be. Just two different concepts that both will work and both will produce a dog that fills your need and desire. One you did and the other you bought, take your pick as to what works for you. Dogs are hard to ruin but you do need to be slow, patient, and consistent for the best results. Have fun either way.


Absolutely! I wouldn't be in to gun dogs if all I did was pay a trainer, training is my favorite part. Even force fetching was fun for me, just watched a DVD and in 2 weeks my dog was transformed, he even got obsessed with the tennis ball over night. Just read, read, read. Also, take what people say that you meet with a grain of salt, there are some wild ideas out there. But seriously, you live in Raleigh and your choices sound like pigeons and launchers or no birds to speak of. One thing is for sure, no birds, no bird dog.
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby oldbeek » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:12 pm

isonychia wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Professional trainer is someone just like the OP that has more experience than the OP while the launcher is just a tool both can use. I don't see where anyone is saying a pro trainer can be replaced by the launcher, I never considered sending a dog to a trainer, as the minimal training most dogs need, is part of the fun of owning a dog. Maybe that was because I never consider training so that a dog could be the best it could be but I was in the camp that wanted my dog to be as good as I needed it to be. Just two different concepts that both will work and both will produce a dog that fills your need and desire. One you did and the other you bought, take your pick as to what works for you. Dogs are hard to ruin but you do need to be slow, patient, and consistent for the best results. Have fun either way.


Absolutely! I wouldn't be in to gun dogs if all I did was pay a trainer, training is my favorite part. Even force fetching was fun for me, just watched a DVD and in 2 weeks my dog was transformed, he even got obsessed with the tennis ball over night. Just read, read, read. Also, take what people say that you meet with a grain of salt, there are some wild ideas out there. But seriously, you live in Raleigh and your choices sound like pigeons and launchers or no birds to speak of. One thing is for sure, no birds, no bird dog.

Sorry for the brief answer about launchers. Training is the best part of owning a bird dog. OK, I have had bird dogs for 40 years. I have worked with several pro trainers. The video I currently use is Perfect Start/finish. I like Standing Stone Kennels videos on FF. Yes you need to be very careful with young dogs. Go slow and keep that tail wagging.
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby Featherfinder » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:26 pm

Quote: Buy them (launchers) , use them then sell them on this site at a little loss.Cheaper than a trainer.
I may have misunderstood the aforementioned quote. If so, my apologies.
Buying a tool is one thing. Knowing how/when to use it....priceless. They also sell e-collars to anyone as well. Need I say more?
I guess what I'm alluding to is launchers are not a replacement for a competent trainer whose knowledge of launchers is just one small aspect of his many attributes.
My assessment as per the OP's comments/videos tell me launchers are part and parcel of the challenges he faces. Just my opinion.
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby gonehuntin' » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:02 pm

Don't get too upset or worried here. A dog can be steadied at any age. In fact, more dog's by far have been ruined steadying them too young than too old. Having a steady dog is simply a matter of consistency in training and in hunting. Launchers are indispensable for training young dog's because you control the bird precisely. Wild birds are very difficult to train with. You never know where they are or what they'll do. I think you're probably well on your way to having a very nice dog.
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby isonychia » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:57 pm

I'll admit, this post is more about me than the OPs question, but here it is anyways...

Steadiness is somewhat overrated too (oh boy). Steady on a bump flush is just as important as pointing in the first place, wind can be bad, it happens. You will notice a lot of hunters and non FT folks don't find it is worth the effort on a consistent, lifelong training effort to keep a dog at steady to release. Yes it is safer, but honestly birds tend to fly up, even when bombing down a hill, it isn't that hard to not shoot your dog. If you waited three years to steady and had lots of exposure to birds before that, you could still do it and it would be harder to turn off the bird in that dog and cause blinking, etc. The one thing that I had to be consistent about was my dog staying on point with me walking in parallel to him and very close, often that is the only way in thick cover while grouse hunting.

At the end of the day, I hunt more for my dog than I do for myself. Field trials, well, I never was very fond of showing what I could do in a test myself, I would rather perform when it counts and show what I could do in a real life situation. It's all fun, and your dog will just be happy you are spending time with him. I played dead bird with a dummy and a wing in home a bunch. Just hiding it while I locked the dog up in the bathroom. Finding is what makes them happy.
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby gundogguy » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:30 am

isonychia wrote:I'll admit, this post is more about me than the OPs question, but here it is anyways...

Steadiness is somewhat overrated too (oh boy). .


:roll: :roll: That is funny stuff, so where you come from breaking,chasing, running -in is underrated.
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby polmaise » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:11 pm

Often,an excuse for inability is used to promote self worth.
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby Sharon » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:14 pm

isonychia wrote:....................... Field trials, well, I never was very fond of showing what I could do in a test myself, I would rather perform when it counts and show what I could do in a real life situation................


I don't think I know a field trialer that doesn't also hunt.
Often people who speak down about field trials/tests have dogs that aren't at that highly trained level.Anything required of a dog in a field trial - once exception in my mind- is essential for effective hunting.
Before you ask: :) In American field trials the dog can't relocate a bird on it's own, after first pointing. I want a dog that relocates on its own when when hunting.
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby shags » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:27 pm

Sharon wrote: In American field trials the dog can't relocate a bird on it's own, after first pointing. I want a dog that relocates on its own when when hunting.


Yeah they can :) As long as the handler hasn't begun an attempt to flush. IME that can mean once the handler gets in proximity to the dog, or once the handler dismounts. Depends on the judge. I have no idea how they figure the dismount thing for walking trials :)
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby Sharon » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:03 pm

The judge I had didn't think so. :)
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Re: Recommendations for Steadiness Training

Postby JONOV » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:06 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Don't get too upset or worried here. A dog can be steadied at any age. In fact, more dog's by far have been ruined steadying them too young than too old. Having a steady dog is simply a matter of consistency in training and in hunting. Launchers are indispensable for training young dog's because you control the bird precisely. Wild birds are very difficult to train with. You never know where they are or what they'll do. I think you're probably well on your way to having a very nice dog.

Thanks, not overly concerned about it. It’s simply a case of wanting to gather as much info as possible, and not wanting to invest in material that won’t ROI. An example was FF with the dog. Someone recommended a toe pinch method I could never make work. Using the ear pinch, i struggled with something that was so simple, but didn’t learn til i got in touch with an expert that threw the dog’s ear open and showed me how and where to pinch at...while I was about to make a thumb tool with a beer cap and make the sucker bleed. I thought he was being stubborn, I wasn’t pinching right. If using a tool or applying a methods is more frustrating than the training itself then being consistent is going to be a struggle. This has been helpful.
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