Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
This is my first bird dog and I have a 6 month old Brittany pup. I have only been able to get her on quail and pigeons 2 times. The guy I am training with is out hunting with the more advanced dogs while season is in. She is pointing tweety birds etc and is getting better on WHOA and whistle commands. I take her out 2-3 time a week and she runs anywhere from 4-8 miles as she hunts wherever her nose leads her. My question is.....Am I missing a key development time with her or is there plenty of time to het her trained well? I see people posting pics of 6-9 month pups that they present as being further ahead of where mine is and I don't want to mess her up by not getting her trained at the right pace.
All experienced opinions are greatly appreciated.
Greg
All experienced opinions are greatly appreciated.
Greg
Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
The first dogs I trained started when they were 7 and 8 *years* old, and they did OK.
Don’t get yourself into a competition with other people on where their pups are compared to yours. Anyone can post a pic but how do you know the true story behind it? Not worth getting wound up about.
A couple more months of birdlessness won’t hurt a thing. You’re doing great just getting your pup out and letting her do her thing. IMO it’s better to start training when you can stick with a fairly set schedule, instead of trying to wedge in a session here and there.
Don’t get yourself into a competition with other people on where their pups are compared to yours. Anyone can post a pic but how do you know the true story behind it? Not worth getting wound up about.
A couple more months of birdlessness won’t hurt a thing. You’re doing great just getting your pup out and letting her do her thing. IMO it’s better to start training when you can stick with a fairly set schedule, instead of trying to wedge in a session here and there.
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Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
Nmhuntr, you are doing fine with your dog but you do need a concise program to follow - a strategy - a clear format of some sort. You shouldn't just wait until one day when you get some sort of an epiphany. There are so many things you can do with your pup right now. Getting him steady is not at the forefront.
Most folk will tell you to let your dog develop, ie. let him run. All I regularly hear about is, "You should see my dog run!" Run this....run that. If you listen to them, they'd rather see a dog run than find birds! "Run" per say, really doesn't mean squat if you did your homework when selecting your pup with the intention of having a competent bird dog. If you're really intent on run, buy a greyhound or whippet and have at 'er.
I assume you aspire to have a capable gun dog? If so, you need to embark on a program - the sooner the better. I often have dogs completely steady and retrieving to hand by 14 - 16+ months. What they do NOT have is wild bird hunting savvy. That can only come from hunting wild birds. That, is what imparts the appropriate range your dog learns to apply itself at. Therefore all the RUN stuff is virtually meaningless. Actually, it typically creates a handling issue. The range at which a utile grouse dog handles itself in the early season woods versus a dog that hunts Huns on the prairies is significantly diverse. The key is, neither one is wrong. They are aligned with the habitat and species. You/the birds will teach them that.
What you need to tackle right now is basic obedience, nurturing a natural retrieve, handling, loading up into crates/trucks etc., intro to water (you don't get the frigid temps in NM that we do or I'd ask for you to wait for summer), intro to the right kind of birds, discerning the various scents in the field (no running trash), and so much more....right now.
Do not wait! Research then layout a program that will serve you/your pup best. You are lucky to have a decent population of wild quail in NM. Running on these can actually wait until you have conveyed your expectation such as manners around birds (in a training environ), etc. Once you have a dog that handles, recalls, is steady and retrieves in a training environment, you can now take him to that next level by dovetailing it on handling wild birds!
Congrats on your pup. Get cracking on a program and above all else, have a blast training your pup!
Most folk will tell you to let your dog develop, ie. let him run. All I regularly hear about is, "You should see my dog run!" Run this....run that. If you listen to them, they'd rather see a dog run than find birds! "Run" per say, really doesn't mean squat if you did your homework when selecting your pup with the intention of having a competent bird dog. If you're really intent on run, buy a greyhound or whippet and have at 'er.
I assume you aspire to have a capable gun dog? If so, you need to embark on a program - the sooner the better. I often have dogs completely steady and retrieving to hand by 14 - 16+ months. What they do NOT have is wild bird hunting savvy. That can only come from hunting wild birds. That, is what imparts the appropriate range your dog learns to apply itself at. Therefore all the RUN stuff is virtually meaningless. Actually, it typically creates a handling issue. The range at which a utile grouse dog handles itself in the early season woods versus a dog that hunts Huns on the prairies is significantly diverse. The key is, neither one is wrong. They are aligned with the habitat and species. You/the birds will teach them that.
What you need to tackle right now is basic obedience, nurturing a natural retrieve, handling, loading up into crates/trucks etc., intro to water (you don't get the frigid temps in NM that we do or I'd ask for you to wait for summer), intro to the right kind of birds, discerning the various scents in the field (no running trash), and so much more....right now.
Do not wait! Research then layout a program that will serve you/your pup best. You are lucky to have a decent population of wild quail in NM. Running on these can actually wait until you have conveyed your expectation such as manners around birds (in a training environ), etc. Once you have a dog that handles, recalls, is steady and retrieves in a training environment, you can now take him to that next level by dovetailing it on handling wild birds!
Congrats on your pup. Get cracking on a program and above all else, have a blast training your pup!
Last edited by Featherfinder on Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
How would you gauge that ?Nmhuntr wrote: All experienced opinions are greatly appreciated.
Greg
Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
LOL We're all experienced aren't we?
Nmhuntr is looking for the "Perfect Start Perfect Finish " programme. If anyone has one to sell please PM him.
Nmhuntr is looking for the "Perfect Start Perfect Finish " programme. If anyone has one to sell please PM him.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
polmaise wrote:How would you gauge that ?Nmhuntr wrote: All experienced opinions are greatly appreciated.
Greg
Well I guess you have a point:) I am on my first dog so I would not be in that category:)
Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
Thanks SharonSharon wrote:LOL We're all experienced aren't we?
Nmhuntr is looking for the "Perfect Start Perfect Finish " programme. If anyone has one to sell please PM him.
I just bit the bullet and ordered one. As. You said it is worth the money and I would like to get started on a true program as soon as possible. I appreciate all the feed back provided on this question and in the forum overall. I am really enjoying the forum.
Thanks again
Greg
Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
Does anyone have any experience with Huntsmith? They will be coming within an hours drive of me this spring for a weekend clinic.
http://www.huntsmith.com/index.php
http://www.huntsmith.com/index.php
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Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
Nmhuntr -
You have been given some solid advice by previous posters.
We all do things differently, but one thing is the same with every single accomplished dog trainer. The DOG is who determines the pace of the training. All "schedules" and such are merely approximations in time and all depend on so many different factors.
Some of those factors are:
The skill level and experience of the trainer.
The tools and facilities available for training., grounds, birds, launchers, e-collar, etc.
The time the trainer has for training.
Get a good solid program and follow it. Let the dog tell you what it needs and when it can proceed, based on its demonstrated proficiency(or lack thereof) in the lesson being trained for.
FWIW, my dogs do not even see a bird(aside from a pigeon or two as pups to make sure their nose functions) until they are about 8 months old. Bird dogs WILL point. That is bred into them. It is the leaning to hunt , with YOU and for YOU that needs to be developed.
Every time you interact with your pup you are training it, whether you realize it or not. What you allow, you encourage.
A trainer once gave me this advice: it has served me well:
Plan your work...then go out and work your plan.
Have fun with it and your pup will too. Enjoy the ride.
RayG
You have been given some solid advice by previous posters.
We all do things differently, but one thing is the same with every single accomplished dog trainer. The DOG is who determines the pace of the training. All "schedules" and such are merely approximations in time and all depend on so many different factors.
Some of those factors are:
The skill level and experience of the trainer.
The tools and facilities available for training., grounds, birds, launchers, e-collar, etc.
The time the trainer has for training.
Get a good solid program and follow it. Let the dog tell you what it needs and when it can proceed, based on its demonstrated proficiency(or lack thereof) in the lesson being trained for.
FWIW, my dogs do not even see a bird(aside from a pigeon or two as pups to make sure their nose functions) until they are about 8 months old. Bird dogs WILL point. That is bred into them. It is the leaning to hunt , with YOU and for YOU that needs to be developed.
Every time you interact with your pup you are training it, whether you realize it or not. What you allow, you encourage.
A trainer once gave me this advice: it has served me well:
Plan your work...then go out and work your plan.
Have fun with it and your pup will too. Enjoy the ride.
RayG
Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
Thanks a lot
Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
Don't miss it!! Wonderful learning experience . The free wonder lead tooejm4 wrote:Does anyone have any experience with Huntsmith? They will be coming within an hours drive of me this spring for a weekend clinic.
http://www.huntsmith.com/index.php
The beginner course( which you should choose) will not affect your present use of the Perfect Start Perfect Finish programme- after that it is quite different imo .
Just read the write up here:
http://www.gundogsupply.com/sicosyofdogt.html
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
ejm4 wrote:Does anyone have any experience with Huntsmith? They will be coming within an hours drive of me this spring for a weekend clinic.
http://www.huntsmith.com/index.php
Worth every penny! You might want to bring a hat that will accomodate an exploding head for the ride home
Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
LOL so true girl.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
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Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
TRUTH!shags wrote:ejm4 wrote:Does anyone have any experience with Huntsmith? They will be coming within an hours drive of me this spring for a weekend clinic.
http://www.huntsmith.com/index.php
Worth every penny! You might want to bring a hat that will accomodate an exploding head for the ride home
I'm working with one of their trainers currently and am impressed with the knowledge and ability. We'll be attending a clinic here this spring as well and I'm excited!
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Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
your pup is young nothing wrong with teaching your dog some basic commands but a dog that young any form of training should be short and fun for both you and dog.as far as that goes ever time your with your dog your training if its just out for a run use your whistle and change direction your teaching your dog to come and go with you its not hard just by doing this your pup is learning. there are lots of things you can do that will make formal training a lot easy
Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
Like what ?setterpoint wrote:there are lots of things you can do that will make formal training a lot easy
Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
No.
I fell into this (pointless) trap myself. This is not a race, and there isn't a test to pass on to the next grade level. Other dogs or owners won't make fun of your dog for not being steady or whatever at X age limit.
If your looking at facebook or instagram or whatever, remember that it is an edited version of reality, for their own self esteem, and not likely a reflection of reality.
You and a buddy (who needs only to know how to operate an iPhone) could put out a quail, walk your dog to a point, get a nice/pic video, shoot it, and get a picture of your dog on a nice point, "retrieving the bird," etc...It doesn't tell you much when you think critically about it.
My wife shared pictures of our duck hunt last weekend, pictures of my dog swimming back with the duck in the Albemarle sound, holding a fat Bluebill nice and pretty at the blind.
She didn't show me running down the bank in my waders with the dog to give it a good line to intercept the duck being moved out quickly by the tide since he couldn't get a mark and doesn't handle like a HRCH Labrador does. She didn't show me yelling at him when he broke before the shot at working ducks over the decoys. Etc...
I fell into this (pointless) trap myself. This is not a race, and there isn't a test to pass on to the next grade level. Other dogs or owners won't make fun of your dog for not being steady or whatever at X age limit.
If your looking at facebook or instagram or whatever, remember that it is an edited version of reality, for their own self esteem, and not likely a reflection of reality.
You and a buddy (who needs only to know how to operate an iPhone) could put out a quail, walk your dog to a point, get a nice/pic video, shoot it, and get a picture of your dog on a nice point, "retrieving the bird," etc...It doesn't tell you much when you think critically about it.
My wife shared pictures of our duck hunt last weekend, pictures of my dog swimming back with the duck in the Albemarle sound, holding a fat Bluebill nice and pretty at the blind.
She didn't show me running down the bank in my waders with the dog to give it a good line to intercept the duck being moved out quickly by the tide since he couldn't get a mark and doesn't handle like a HRCH Labrador does. She didn't show me yelling at him when he broke before the shot at working ducks over the decoys. Etc...
Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
LOL That is so true!
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
I'm falling behind .
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Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
first its better to take your time than moveing to fast. you asked what all you could do training.im saying you keep you dog inside in a kennel ever time you put your dog in his kennel make the dog stay untill told to go in say kennel and put the dog in it wont be long till the dog will go in on command.nothing wrong with playing retrieve with you dog as i said when the dog is out running change directions offten the dog learns to keep track of you and go to the front thats just a few things you can do everday you cab teach heel if you like
Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
I'll keep the key to the medicine cupboard safe for now .setterpoint wrote:first its better to take your time than moveing to fast. you asked what all you could do training.im saying you keep you dog inside in a kennel ever time you put your dog in his kennel make the dog stay untill told to go in say kennel and put the dog in it wont be long till the dog will go in on command.nothing wrong with playing retrieve with you dog as i said when the dog is out running change directions offten the dog learns to keep track of you and go to the front thats just a few things you can do everday you cab teach heel if you like
Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
Following a program like Perfect Start is good way to go, best way to go. But "bleep" birds are birds and don't down play them. They help teach your dog it can't catch birds. Without a progrm and I do think you need to get one, there are other ways. Lot of people simply take their dog hunting and start shooting birds over them. It really does work! But unless you have a lot of wild birds around you'll go long dry spells looking for them. And if you have some small problem to work on, the wild birds won't care, they are wild birds after all. For myself wild bird's just don't co-operate very well, but it will work!
I strongly suggest building a pigeon pen and getting pigeon's. Best co-operating training bird there is and let them go and they go back into your pen! Generally speaking they don't land on the ground in front of your dog either, they land in a tree! Check cord for you t handle your dog and helper to handle the bird and your good to go. I always use remoter traps and pigeons. That way I can pretty much remove myself from it and have control of the pigeon well enough to make it act like a regular game bird. Great tool. I can take a young dog to a well started dog with the traps and never open my mouth. The dual is between the dog and the bird and I'm just the umpire.
I strongly suggest building a pigeon pen and getting pigeon's. Best co-operating training bird there is and let them go and they go back into your pen! Generally speaking they don't land on the ground in front of your dog either, they land in a tree! Check cord for you t handle your dog and helper to handle the bird and your good to go. I always use remoter traps and pigeons. That way I can pretty much remove myself from it and have control of the pigeon well enough to make it act like a regular game bird. Great tool. I can take a young dog to a well started dog with the traps and never open my mouth. The dual is between the dog and the bird and I'm just the umpire.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
DonF' I can't comment on the program content , because I know nothing of it ! , that said ..with the title ,would it be right that someone who has already started or embarked on some other avenue and encountered issues and or problems on the way that the 'Start part' is/has been missed in this program ?.DonF wrote:Following a program like Perfect Start is good way to go, best way to go.
If so, would any issues/concerns not need to be addressed first in isolation so that a fresh start could be obtained ....to follow the program for example ?
Or does the program eradicate previous issues with a dog and handler such as the OP' ?
Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
Perfect start/perfect finish is a great program to use, BUT be aware you have to have access to a very large number of pigeons(plus a couple of launchers) if you are going to start & finish the dog.
Penny4--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3227
Shooter--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3228
Penny5--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3229
Star--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3732
DeSeeker Britts 402-426-4243
Shooter--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3228
Penny5--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3229
Star--http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3732
DeSeeker Britts 402-426-4243
Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
I think so. Keep in mind the parts that didn't work before will probably go missing this time around. Most dog's can't be screwed up so bad they can't be fixed. Dog's want the bird, that's all they want.polmaise wrote:DonF' I can't comment on the program content , because I know nothing of it ! , that said ..with the title ,would it be right that someone who has already started or embarked on some other avenue and encountered issues and or problems on the way that the 'Start part' is/has been missed in this program ?.DonF wrote:Following a program like Perfect Start is good way to go, best way to go.
If so, would any issues/concerns not need to be addressed first in isolation so that a fresh start could be obtained ....to follow the program for example ?
Or does the program eradicate previous issues with a dog and handler such as the OP' ?
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
Yea, that's what I figured . I figured also that when the only thing they want is the bird they ain't working with you , they are working for them selves.DonF wrote:Most dog's can't be screwed up so bad they can't be fixed. Dog's want the bird, that's all they want.
Ray ' had some pretty good markers earlier in the thread ,that maybe ..and just maybe ' the OP should look at ..before a program ..but that's just my guess.
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Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
For the sake of the OP and his pup, allow me to re-iterate:
What you need to tackle right now is basic obedience, nurturing a natural retrieve, handling, loading up into crates/trucks etc., intro to water (you don't get the frigid temps in NM that we do or I'd ask for you to wait for summer), intro to the right kind of birds, discerning the various scents in the field (no running trash), and so much more....right now.
Perhaps my use of the word "handling" is obscure. It does mean, we (the dog and I) do this together as a team minus all the verbiage, whistles and flailing arms that looks impressive to human onlookers but is in fact, a detriment to wild bird hunting. I also used the words "right now" (twice actually) intimating that it can be done right now with a young dog, as a natural progression or more appropriately a dovetailing into a formal training program.
What you need to tackle right now is basic obedience, nurturing a natural retrieve, handling, loading up into crates/trucks etc., intro to water (you don't get the frigid temps in NM that we do or I'd ask for you to wait for summer), intro to the right kind of birds, discerning the various scents in the field (no running trash), and so much more....right now.
Perhaps my use of the word "handling" is obscure. It does mean, we (the dog and I) do this together as a team minus all the verbiage, whistles and flailing arms that looks impressive to human onlookers but is in fact, a detriment to wild bird hunting. I also used the words "right now" (twice actually) intimating that it can be done right now with a young dog, as a natural progression or more appropriately a dovetailing into a formal training program.
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Re: Young pup and training (am I falling behind)
I didn't get pigeons until my dog was 1.5 and then I couldn't fly them until he was 2, then I focused up wild birds when he was 3.5-4. Pigeons are very important, but they aren't make or break it at 6 months, try to formulate a plan to get some controlled bird time in,but it could be at the 1-2 year mark. 6 months you are still working on conditioning for anything hunt related and then obedience and collar conditioning.
I was moving out west when my dog was 9 months old, working on a ranch with him in the field, he chased more blue grouse than you could imagine, I thought he would never point one! 1 Year is young. This all being said, I will be "conditioning" my next pup with birds from as early as he seems fit for and will likely start planting birds for him in launchers around the 5-7 month time frame. ONLY to teach him that if he gets to close, birds fly. With young dogs, you launch those birds far enough away as not to scare the dog and you don't use collar stim on a young pup, honestly, if this is your first dog then you had really better know what you are doing if you ever use your collar on him with birds, even if he is chasing them, especially if he is chasing them and not in danger of going off a cliff. I'm jumping the gun on collar talk but it's an important point. You live in New Mexico? You should be able to find wild birds out of nest season that could be fairly dependable, just take the pup out and get him that exposure for now, no expectations or hunt commands, no whoa, just chasing those birds!
I was moving out west when my dog was 9 months old, working on a ranch with him in the field, he chased more blue grouse than you could imagine, I thought he would never point one! 1 Year is young. This all being said, I will be "conditioning" my next pup with birds from as early as he seems fit for and will likely start planting birds for him in launchers around the 5-7 month time frame. ONLY to teach him that if he gets to close, birds fly. With young dogs, you launch those birds far enough away as not to scare the dog and you don't use collar stim on a young pup, honestly, if this is your first dog then you had really better know what you are doing if you ever use your collar on him with birds, even if he is chasing them, especially if he is chasing them and not in danger of going off a cliff. I'm jumping the gun on collar talk but it's an important point. You live in New Mexico? You should be able to find wild birds out of nest season that could be fairly dependable, just take the pup out and get him that exposure for now, no expectations or hunt commands, no whoa, just chasing those birds!