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Quail introduction at 5 months...

Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby Mike da Carpenter » Sat May 12, 2018 5:58 am

Introduced Levi to some Tennessee Red quail earlier this week. Our trainer, who we will be sending Levi to “Summer Camp” with, wanted to see Levi’s prey drive and natural abilities, so we bought 6 quail, released one at the trainer’s property, then brought the others home to work him a couple more days on birds. He will not see another bird until he goes to get trained in late July for 5 weeks.

Levi’s nose is simply amazing. If he lost the scent, he would work downwind in a big circle till he picked it up again, then work it right in to the bird. He flash points then dives in, and the best is that at only 5 months, he is retrieving to hand. Never knew a GSP could be so much fun to have. Below is the video my oldest son made of the bird introduction. He has edited out all the long distance nose work Levi did to get on the birds. He said nobody would want to see that, they only want close up video. I disagree, but he is the director and I want him to make decisions and stick with them. Both our boys are a huge help in the development process.

https://youtu.be/zkLw0Of_bd8
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby gspbrit » Sat May 12, 2018 7:06 am

Beautiful pup and it looks like you have been doing lots of work with him. It looks like he has plenty of prey drive and he's handlind the bird scent instinctively. Congratulations. I have a question: did the trainer have the pup try to get that close to the bird? It almost looked like he was trying to grab it. Those darned pen-raised quail have a bad habit of not flying, so they teach the pup to pounce and crunch. Unfortunately, pups learn that fast. I had no pigeons one year and tried to start a pup on pen-raised quail and regretted it. That meant he had to go back to unlearn some stuff. If it was me I'd either get a check cord or some faster quail, but maybe your trainer has some different approach.
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby Mike da Carpenter » Sat May 12, 2018 7:18 am

Trainer said not to use a check cord, as it has caused dogs to “Blink” birds in his past experience. He wanted to just let the dog be a dog with no human intervention, to include verbal commands. He knew the quail weren’t going to fly well, just wanted to evaluate his drive and natural ability. He now will not be into birds till Levi returns to him in 2 1/2 months. Then it will be his pigeons, then chucker and finish up on pheasants. Not only did Levi pounce, but also caught them in mid air. He has no problem in the prey drive department, and most impressive to me is that he delivered the birds to hand. He is hunting for me, and not himself. To me that’s a win.
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby gspbrit » Sat May 12, 2018 7:33 am

That's very interesting. I guess I'm too cheap to pay a trainer to unlearn something! :oops:
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby Mike da Carpenter » Sat May 12, 2018 10:05 am

gspbrit wrote:That's very interesting. I guess I'm too cheap to pay a trainer to unlearn something! :oops:

I agree, you are to cheap. Passive aggressive replies are a sure way to get the same in return. Nothing nice to say, then move on. Try unlearning your own behavior issues then you will be a happy person.
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby gspbrit » Sat May 12, 2018 11:58 am

Sorry if I offended you but my sense of humor is warped sometimes. I have seen trainers recommend putting pups on wild birds and have put them on wild birds myself. Yes, it makes them birdy but no, they don't catch them. As I said, I trained a (couple of) GSPs and the one that I trained with pen raised quail learned to jump on them and eat them because they wouldn't fly and he was hard-headed enough that he didn't want to quit jumping them. Now we use release traps or tip cages (even then they can knock the cages over and get the birds). I see on other threads that others have had the same experience with tame quail. Young dogs at field trials sometimes break and grab pen-raised quail, and once they start that it's a pain to train that habit out of them. So, I was curious about what the trainer told you because 6 quail is more than what I'd expect to find out the pup's potential. Your video shows that you are justifiably proud of your pup and I wish you luck.
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby birddogger2 » Sat May 12, 2018 3:13 pm

Mike da Carpenter wrote:
gspbrit wrote:That's very interesting. I guess I'm too cheap to pay a trainer to unlearn something! :oops:

I agree, you are to cheap. Passive aggressive replies are a sure way to get the same in return. Nothing nice to say, then move on. Try unlearning your own behavior issues then you will be a happy person.



Mike -

FWIW, I would not have introduced one of my dogs to birds that way either. Also FWIW, I also see no value in allowing a dog to do something I will have to train out or train around later on. But then I ain't getting paid to train dogs, so what do I know??

Deliberately letting a 6 month old shorthair that does not have a low prey drive issues catch birds... is a dumb thing to do. I wouldn't. From what I saw...your pup does not have a low prey drive issue, but rather... quite the opposite.

That ain't being passive aggressive...just my honest opinion. And YES that is a nice youngster. Good luck with him.

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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby DonF » Sun May 13, 2018 8:25 am

My dog's all pull a check cord early on. But, they just drag it. I've never seen a dog blink a bird because of a check cord. If that were to happen, I'd guess the trainer was being to hard on the CC. Get your dog right to where it's gonna find the bird and then start jerking on the CC I believe would make a dog blink the bird. Think of it like the dog. You get a wiff of bird and someone start's jerking on the CC. At some point the dog is going to blink the bird, that is what it was taught!
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby isonychia » Mon May 14, 2018 9:00 am

I just watched that video. Those quail have zero fly in them, they act more like couternix or some other variety of meat quail. The birds should be teaching the dog to stay by flying, especially in the first introductions (I noticed you were giving whoa gestures). Also very important, don't yank a dog off of a bird he catches. If a dog catches a bird, you act like nothing happened. Yes sometimes we card pigeons to let a pup catch a bird, maybe once, maybe twice. Typically however this is done to develop prey drive or boldness, as you stated was the purpose here, though I question the merit of this beyond 1 single bird. I have never heard of a check cord causing blinking, but then again, if a trainer is using birds like that I suppose anything could happen. If I were you, and I had a big open piece of land like that, no question I would be raising some pigeons.
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby Mike da Carpenter » Mon May 14, 2018 12:45 pm

isonychia wrote:If I were you, and I had a big open piece of land like that, no question I would be raising some pigeons.


That is the plan for next winter. Just don’t have a great place to raise them. Looking for a local place where I can trap them though. The GSP won’t see another released bird (pigeon/chucker) till he gets to Summer Camp. These quail were left over from a NAVHDA event.

Thank you all for the replies. What do I know, I’m new to all of this. It’s an absolute blast being around this GSP. It’s my boy’s first bird dog, and they are having more fun with it than me. What’s done is done, now to let him be a puppy for a couple more months, and he can go get proper training. In some guy’s eyes, what I did was wrong, I have seen the dogs my trainer had put out, and I’m not second guessing his ways or results. They work for him, your way works for you. As long as the end result is the same, who honestly cares how you got there, especially when I’m not competing for points...makes life a whole lot easier.

We found out the dog has the drive, bidibility, and temperament of a GSP that wants to please. I’ll report back how he is doing this October/November. I’m amazed at the power of the nose, and retrieval to hand already.
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby Featherfinder » Wed May 16, 2018 7:12 am

Mike, I believe a trainer could have gotten more utile info from a quick view of your dog's pedigree. While the damage done by the quail in the video is not insurmountable, I would recommend you not repeat the process again for your handsome prospect. If you are going to put him on birds at all before the pro gets the dog, try wild birds or as suggested hard flying pigeons. Absolutely no more pen raised birds for that nice dog, please?
You can play retrieve games with him now too - first with bumpers then dead birds. I'd keep one of those caught/dead quail in the freezer for uses just like this. That will serve you going forward and should not compromise the trainer's efforts.
Congrats on what looks like a fine GSP, Mike!
Last edited by Featherfinder on Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby isonychia » Wed May 16, 2018 8:45 am

Mike da Carpenter wrote:
isonychia wrote:If I were you, and I had a big open piece of land like that, no question I would be raising some pigeons.


That is the plan for next winter. Just don’t have a great place to raise them. Looking for a local place where I can trap them though. The GSP won’t see another released bird (pigeon/chucker) till he gets to Summer Camp. These quail were left over from a NAVHDA event.

Thank you all for the replies. What do I know, I’m new to all of this. It’s an absolute blast being around this GSP. It’s my boy’s first bird dog, and they are having more fun with it than me. What’s done is done, now to let him be a puppy for a couple more months, and he can go get proper training. In some guy’s eyes, what I did was wrong, I have seen the dogs my trainer had put out, and I’m not second guessing his ways or results. They work for him, your way works for you. As long as the end result is the same, who honestly cares how you got there, especially when I’m not competing for points...makes life a whole lot easier.

We found out the dog has the drive, bidibility, and temperament of a GSP that wants to please. I’ll report back how he is doing this October/November. I’m amazed at the power of the nose, and retrieval to hand already.


Think about how big your loft will be and how many birds you will be able to find and buy. If you can only buy 20 birds, plan on 4 months or so before they will re-home, can be much shorter, but you will likely lose some at 4 months too so it is a toss up. Time it right in other words. If you go for 100 birds, you can afford to loose more to trying to get them to home earlier. I can't fly birds in the winter here due to falcons but my opinion is sooner the better, your trainer will only have the dog for a short period of time and my guess is that there will be some bird followup you will want to do with the dog. At that age, the trainer won't be steadying the dog (or shouldn't be) and if you run in to any issues (you will) that you need birds for, you will wish you had them and waiting 4 months is a long time. Next summer ('19) will be the steadying process, your going to need birds until probably 3-4 years old. After that, you will still want one here and there to work on something.
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby DonF » Wed May 16, 2018 10:51 am

I think the big problem with pen raised game birds is that few people have the flight pens needed to get the birds flying. As a result, they end up with bird's that let dog's catch them. The best bird in my opinion is the pigeon. Lot of folk's dog's get to where they won't point pigeons anymore. That's because the owner has turned the pigeon into a training bird. It seem's to me that the hardest thing for people to overcome is not to make a training bird out of a pigeon Do that and for many dog's it becomes the same ole, same ole. Word of caution on getting pigeons. Don't buy to many, 20 is pushing it! The things multiply like rats!. Try to sort out males and females, you want them to nest. Once they have young one's you can start letting them fly, don't push them out the door, simply open the bob's and come and go as they please. In a few days start dropping one bob at a time till they are all down. Spend some time watching them and the males will sort themselves out, they strut trying to get the attention of females. Start with four or five pairs and next year your gonna be over run with them.

You'll probably have to buy homer's if that's what you want but, feral are really pretty easy to catch. Make's them pretty much free. I've had feral over thirty years now. Been that long since I've had the replace any at all.
Homers maybe six or seven years and same thing with them. Started them with three pairs. Little secret to buying pigeon's, feral or homer. Buy squeakers. Young birds with the bridge of their nose still pink and some hairs still on their head and never been outside the loft they are in. Once they fly around the loft and are eating and drinking on their own, you have them. Open the bob's the first time and they will come back in, it's the only home they know. Works with feral and homer's.

Unless your training say 50mi or less from home, you don't need homers, feral will make the trip if you start them out right. Feral are a lot smaller than homer's. They fit into the old small release basket's much better. In hot weather homer's in those small basket's have a problem with dying before you get back to them. If your out planting by hand, feral are much much easier to work with because of their smaller size. Lot easier to tuck the head of a feral! I really like my homer's but still prefer my feral birds.

Had a guy tell me a few weeks ago that he has a homer he paid $100 for, yep homer's can get pretty expensive. Get them from someone that raise's them to race and if they are considered good birds, they''l cost you. But all of them get birds they won't race and usually they put them down. If they don't and you get some from them. Even after they've been on the nest a few time's, they just may go back to where they were hatched. Racer's need to fly them before separating the cull's. Five of my first six homer's are gone and been gone several years. Don't know if hawks got them or if they went home. Doesn't matter either as I got a lot of young one's out of them. Once you get the first few young one's eating, drinking and flying in the loft, the older birds don't matter anymore. The young one's will come back. But you do need to train them a bit.

I have some really pretty bird's, seldom let them out much because they are to lite. I understand that hawks are much harder on the white birds than the darker birds. But some of them I do train with here at home. Have two pretty good fields on y property. Haven't ever seen a hawk get one here but the people next door saw a hawk grab on the roof of a shed. Bad luck for the hawk as the rest of the pigeons attacked and it left hungry!

Pigeons are really easy to work with and they'll take a whipping and still come back for another training session with the dog. Years ago I had one I thought a dog had killed, appeared lifeless. Put it on the wood pile when I went in the house and the thing came to and went back in the loft! True story!
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby JONOV » Wed May 16, 2018 3:06 pm

Mike da Carpenter wrote:
gspbrit wrote:That's very interesting. I guess I'm too cheap to pay a trainer to unlearn something! :oops:

I agree, you are to cheap. Passive aggressive replies are a sure way to get the same in return. Nothing nice to say, then move on. Try unlearning your own behavior issues then you will be a happy person.

birddogger2 wrote:
Mike da Carpenter wrote:
gspbrit wrote:That's very interesting. I guess I'm too cheap to pay a trainer to unlearn something! :oops:

I agree, you are to cheap. Passive aggressive replies are a sure way to get the same in return. Nothing nice to say, then move on. Try unlearning your own behavior issues then you will be a happy person.



Mike -

FWIW, I would not have introduced one of my dogs to birds that way either. Also FWIW, I also see no value in allowing a dog to do something I will have to train out or train around later on. But then I ain't getting paid to train dogs, so what do I know??

Deliberately letting a 6 month old shorthair that does not have a low prey drive issues catch birds... is a dumb thing to do. I wouldn't. From what I saw...your pup does not have a low prey drive issue, but rather... quite the opposite.

That ain't being passive aggressive...just my honest opinion. And YES that is a nice youngster. Good luck with him.

RayG
Be nice to one another.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, and I've seen enough pro trainers with enough bona fides doing things different ways that I'm not convinced there's always a right way and a wrong way, just preferences.

If a trainer prefers not to work the dogs on a check cord, that's his experience and perfectly valid. Its not the first time I've heard a pro trainer tell someone to take the check cord off the dog and let him dog.

**Almost** any training equipment will bring its own set of challenges or has potential pitfalls in its application, and they might be different from dog-to-dog.
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby averageguy » Wed May 16, 2018 5:59 pm

When I saw the video it immediately presented a dilemma for me as to whether to speak up or let it lay. I believe the folks speaking up have the pup and owner's best interest at heart in doing so.

Letting an adequately bold 5 month old pointing breed puppy catch 6 weak flying pen raised quail in a row is "training" for the exact wrong behavior. Which the puppy eagerly demonstrated by following its nose right in on every bird it smelled, seeking to catch one after the other. No flash point at all by day two. As would most every other bold puppy put in the same situation.

Given a plan to keep the pup off birds until sent back to the trainer it is not likely to be an insurmountable hurdle/setback, but it did make me question the trainer who gave the advice to go home and work the puppy on five more birds that can't fly he sent home with them ... The check cord, or not, is not the issue.
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby isonychia » Thu May 17, 2018 3:28 pm

When I saw the video it immediately presented a dilemma for me as to whether to speak up or let it lay. I believe the folks speaking up have the pup and owner's best interest at heart in doing so.

Letting an adequately bold 5 month old pointing breed puppy catch 6 weak flying pen raised quail in a row is "training" for the exact wrong behavior. Which the puppy eagerly demonstrated by following its nose right in on every bird it smelled, seeking to catch one after the other. No flash point at all by day two. As would most every other bold puppy put in the same situation.

Given a plan to keep the pup off birds until sent back to the trainer it is not likely to be an insurmountable hurdle/setback, but it did make me question the trainer who gave the advice to go home and work the puppy on five more birds that can't fly he sent home with them ... The check cord, or not, is not the issue.


...exactly. Also beware; I have heard of trainers who got their start by showing off dogs they purchased as finished dogs. I am not saying at all that this is normal, or even from true stories, though I believe them. So... just because someone has a dog that does a good job, and just because they might make you think that is the case, doesn't mean it is...

Tennessee Red Quail are bred as meat quail because they are larger, Jumbo Bobwhites also are pretty bad at flying: https://www.strombergschickens.com/product/Tennessee-Red-Quail/Quail-For-Sale

PS - I would want a trainer to have my pup, if I chose to do so, around 5-7 months, hopefully before the first season, then again sometime between 1.5-2.25 years (depending on the dog )to steady and then as needed. Your only talking about a small handful of months with the trainer.
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby Mike da Carpenter » Sat May 19, 2018 7:22 am

Well, worse case scenario is that he continues to pounce and retrieve all the birds I hunt, and that should drastically increase my bring home percentage and save me a ton of $ on shotgun shells.

All kidding aside, I have no doubts you all mean the best in your replies, and they are appreciated, but this is something I chose to do with my own money and time. My boys are super geeked about being a part of raising a bird dog and the oldest (14) is into making films for YouTube, and my youngest (12) shows up quite a few at the trap range with my Grandpa’s SxS 12 gauge. It sure beats the heck out of giving them a computer/babysitter and not allowing them to enjoy the outdoors as so few kids now a days get out in the fresh air.

Not to mention, There is no way I would ship my dog off for 1/2 a year (+) to let someone else raise him, just as I will not allow someone else to raise my kids. If all I get out of this is a perfect house dog that my wife enjoys having around, it’s a WIN. If he hunts birds like we all know he will, it’s a win/win. When I report back this fall on a recapped hunt that Levi pointed and held the bird till I flushed it, then he retrieved it and we go get another...We have the trifecta.
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby averageguy » Sat May 19, 2018 7:32 am

Hey Mike, You have a great thing going on there with your pup and your boys. I encourage you to buy and follow the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish DVDs and your dreams for this Fall can fall into place.
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby ezzy333 » Sat May 19, 2018 8:08 am

Mike da Carpenter wrote:Well, worse case scenario is that he continues to pounce and retrieve all the birds I hunt, and that should drastically increase my bring home percentage and save me a ton of $ on shotgun shells.

All kidding aside, I have no doubts you all mean the best in your replies, and they are appreciated, but this is something I chose to do with my own money and time. My boys are super geeked about being a part of raising a bird dog and the oldest (14) is into making films for YouTube, and my youngest (12) shows up quite a few at the trap range with my Grandpa’s SxS 12 gauge. It sure beats the heck out of giving them a computer/babysitter and not allowing them to enjoy the outdoors as so few kids now a days get out in the fresh air.

Not to mention, There is no way I would ship my dog off for 1/2 a year (+) to let someone else raise him, just as I will not allow someone else to raise my kids. If all I get out of this is a perfect house dog that my wife enjoys having around, it’s a WIN. If he hunts birds like we all know he will, it’s a win/win. When I report back this fall on a recapped hunt that Levi pointed and held the bird till I flushed it, then he retrieved it and we go get another...We have the trifecta.


I'm my mind you are talking exactly how I feel about our dogs and kids and how to get the utmost enjoyment out of having both. There are much more important things than having a perfectly trained dog when we do it right.

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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby ddoyle » Sat May 19, 2018 10:05 pm

Mike,
I believe you are correct people are trying to help they just might be a little to blunt sometimes... I agree with Ezzy if you love the dog and the kids enjoy it have at it! If you are like me and my kids you will realize things you wish you had done different and work on with other dogs. I imagine everyone on this board no matter how many dogs they have trained still have moments where they say to themselves "I wish I hadn't done that!" Have fun enjoy the dog and the kids it all goes too fast!
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby averageguy » Mon May 21, 2018 6:52 am

Yes but let’s not miss the point here with happy talk. The pup is 5 months old. Plenty of time to train this pup right and heeding the advice of persons with more knowledge and experience would seem the productive purpose of public forums. Especially when that advice has a great deal of commonality.

This is not an either or proposition, the pup can be trained to be a staunch stylish bird finder while all involved enjoy the journey. Which includes learning how to best develop and train the puppy.
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby Mike da Carpenter » Mon May 21, 2018 7:58 am

averageguy wrote: Which includes learning how to best develop and train the puppy.


You sure do believe YOUR way is the best, don’t you? What part of “my money, my time” can you simply not grasp. You’ve said your peace...time and time again. If you don’t like what someone is doing, is there a constant need to try and inforce your method?

I’m 100% happy with MY gsp’s development. If you are not, I honestly do not care. If you have a better way, to train a 5 month old GSP pup, make your own video and present it to all who believe they know better than you, at least then you will have something else to do instead of telling me how wrong I am.

Remember one thing, if it were your dog and you were doing it your way with your money and your time, how many people are you going to let tell you how to best spend it. If you can’t accept that there are plenty of ways to get to the finish line, then maybe you shouldn’t be in the race.

I’ve said my piece, and I’m done with this subject. If all this site is going to be is bitter old men who are holier than thou, I’m done and moving on. Life is way to short to let a few feeble minded individuals occupy free space in one’s Head. I first found this site and was interested in the content, not the negativity and strongly opinionated attitudes of a few who have overshadowed the well intentioned folks who are also on here.
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby shags » Mon May 21, 2018 8:42 am

I don't think anyone is trying to be critical of your dog or your efforts per se. The point is, most of us have been there too, and now that we've travelled that route, we see the pitfalls of certain methods and are trying to save you time and money in the long run.

Most of us probably have regrets in not bringing along our first dogs to their potential. Most of the posters on this thread want to spare you that kind of regret.

It's your monkey, your circus. If you want only applause, fine. If you want to develop a brag dog, fine. Do your thing and have fun with it. But I think it's unfair to post and complain about the responses, and to denigrate the experience and knowlege of seasoned trainers.

But know that this is a public forum and questions, answers, opinions, and advice aren't only read by OPs. Lots of other folks may read and learn even though the information is useless to you.
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby cjhills » Mon May 21, 2018 8:49 am

Mike da Carpenter wrote:
averageguy wrote: Which includes learning how to best develop and train the puppy.


You sure do believe YOUR way is the best, don’t you? What part of “my money, my time” can you simply not grasp. You’ve said your peace...time and time again. If you don’t like what someone is doing, is there a constant need to try and inforce your method?

I’m 100% happy with MY gsp’s development. If you are not, I honestly do not care. If you have a better way, to train a 5 month old GSP pup, make your own video and present it to all who believe they know better than you, at least then you will have something else to do instead of telling me how wrong I am.

Remember one thing, if it were your dog and you were doing it your way with your money and your time, how many people are you going to let tell you how to best spend it. If you can’t accept that there are plenty of ways to get to the finish line, then maybe you shouldn’t be in the race.

I’ve said my piece, and I’m done with this subject. If all this site is going to be is bitter old men who are holier than thou, I’m done and moving on. Life is way to short to let a few feeble minded individuals occupy free space in one’s Head. I first found this site and was interested in the content, not the negativity and strongly opinionated attitudes of a few who have overshadowed the well intentioned folks who are also on here. \)


Mike;

A little story:
I got my first GSP about 25 years ago. I had never seen a dog on point. We looked at a lot of dogs before I found the one I wanted. With no knowledge of pointing dogs I may have passed up some very good puppies. I bought a cheap puppy from a one time breeder because when I drove in the yard the mother came to meet me and I was sold before I got out of the truck. It was the right decision he turned out to be a great dog. I raised a few pheasantsand chukars and let him hunt them. I still remember his first point on a planted Chukar. In had no idea what to do I finally sent him to flush and of course missed the bird. We went on to preserve hunting and shooting everything pointed, flushed or both. We had great fun. Took him to South Dakota with my kids. We shot every thing that flew pointed or not. Also great fun. Over the next couple years we shot hundreds of birds over that dog he would retrieve anything. He was a classic meat dog we loved hunting over that dog and for years made at least two trips to SD. Hunting with kids and grand kids. I still miss them days so make the most of them.
I bought another pup and met a pro trainer. I decided to try hunt tests and with a little help from the trainer an a lot of errors from me I train that dog to a Master title. he was still a meat dog on wild birds. We shot over 2000 pheasants over him. Wild bird and Game farm birds.
The moral is: Do what you want with your dog. If you are happy that is all that counts. If you want to do something different you can. Like you said it is your time and money. You can't ruin your dog if he is doing what you want
Yes, I am an opinionated old guy, but to me it is about the dogs and having fun nothing else makes any sense. Everything else is window dressing.
I have absolutely no regrets and what is the dogs full potential. The dog does not care ands you won't either
There is a lot of good stuff on this forum. Hang in there.................Cj
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby averageguy » Mon May 21, 2018 9:37 am

Well Mike,

I hope you control your short fuse better when you are "dog training" than you do at the keyboard.

What I have posted in this thread touched lightly on mainstream dog training methods that I learned from highly successful pro trainers and experience gained from the multiple breeds of dogs I have owned, trained and hunted with for decades now. The DVDs I recommended are the best of a dozen or so I have purchased and studied over the years. My intent was to help you.

You have attacked others when they dare to comment on the glaring problems in your video posted in the "Training" section of a public forum, and now I am your latest victim. I won't make the mistake of trying to help you and your pup again.
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby averageguy » Mon May 21, 2018 11:31 am

cjhills wrote:You can't ruin your dog if he is doing what you want


True Enough, but the OP posted above his dream of his puppy pointing and holding a point until he the handler flushed the bird, and then the dog retrieving to hand. And then doing it again on the next bird...

Hence all the following concerns which were posted given that objective.
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby isonychia » Mon May 21, 2018 3:08 pm

Just a side note, but there was some mention of flushing birds not being a big deal and you can just shoot them. That is true, but a 5 month old pup isn't going to range like a 2 year old. You can't shoot a flushed bird at 200 yards. Everyone on here that replies often is hoping for an opportunity to let a little ego out on what they know. I realize you posted a video and just wanted to share something with us and I think we all benefited in the discourse one way or another. Don't write us off. When you come back with questions in the future we will be just as eager to answer them.
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Re: Quail introduction at 5 months...

Postby Featherfinder » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:32 pm

Mike, I appreciate where you're coming from. It just so happens that a forum has novices as well as more experienced contributors all in one melting pot. It can be frustrating being told you might want to try a better way. It can also be disappointing offering sincere well-intended suggestions only to have them dissected, criticized or even ridiculed.
I just want you to know that my very first pure bred bird dog became a USA and Canadian Open Field Trial Champion! Let me be frank. It wasn't because of me! "I" owned the dog BUT I had a mentor. He took me under his wing and taught me a great deal. Not all of it made sense at the time nor did I always agree with the lessons or analogies.
I know....you're not looking for a champion. You just want to enjoy developing your dog with your sons. Actually, I envy you. That aside, if you end up too far down the wrong path, enjoyment is not likely where it will take you.
I know...sometimes the best of intentions come across this medium as being very autocratic. In part it is this medium. In part it is because some of us have burned and burned bad for mistakes we made in the past that could have been easily avoided. We want to save the bird dog world! ( :roll: It ain't happenin'.)
At the end of the day, it's your dog, you money, your sons. No one can dispute that. There is another aspect that cannot be disputed. You do play a BIG part in how this dog turns out whether it's a brag dog or a royal pain in the asterisk.
Also keep in mind that sometimes I personally am guilty of making suggestions with the dog's best intentions in mind, over the owner's. It comes from seeing so many owners devastated by where their dog ends up and looking for help when they realize they toasted their canine hunting buddy (more than one dog was headed for euthanization).
Take what you like from this forum....discard what you don't. Just don't alienate those that have your best interest at heart even when they don't come across that way on here. I sincerely believe averageguy offered salient content with your best intentions in mind.
Lastly, I've reread my very own posts in the past and thought, "What the _ _ _ _!?!?!" It might be the aluminum pots/pans my Mum cooked with. :lol:
All the best going forward with your sons and pup Sir. Enjoy...because they both grow up FAR TOO fast!
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