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VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby Higgins » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:09 pm

Here is a link to a video of Jax, a nice young Lab pointing his bird. Reagan is the shooter. When it comes to dogs (like Labs) that have been bred to flush birds, I like to give them the freedom to choose their strategy, to work with their strengths. If a flushing dog demonstrates a talent for pointing, and the type of hunting he'll be doing is conducive to it, I say let him point.

https://youtu.be/OhiYEXv6800

http://www.HigginsGundogs.com
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby mnaj_springer » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:12 pm

Well, here we go again!

Edit to clarify: The debate of Labs flushing or pointing.
Last edited by mnaj_springer on Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby nikegundog » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:31 pm

Do you always hunt with that check cord attached?
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby DonF » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:06 am

If you want to teach your cat to point and hunt with it, more power to you. For myself there are breeds that were designed to point over a lot of years and a lab will never be one of them. And I like labs! Labs are also used as flushing dogs and truth is lot's of different breeds have been used that way. heard from a guy in Eastern Montana that use's his Border Collie! But if you want to compete with a Field Springer, you ain't gonna make the cut. About like an E. Setter trying to compete in a retrieving trial. They will certainly retrieve but they will come out on bottom of the pile. No lab will ever be competitive against a bog intended to be a pointing dog!
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby polmaise » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:22 pm

Higgins wrote:When it comes to dogs (like Labs) that have been bred to flush birds, I like to give them the freedom to choose their strategy, to work with their strengths. If a flushing dog demonstrates a talent for pointing, and the type of hunting he'll be doing is conducive to it, I say let him point.


Im having Real issues understanding this . I have obviously misunderstood the whole concept (I usually do , so apologies) Im just plain old simple .
I thought Retrievers (Lets call them Labs for simplicity) were bred for Retrieving and Not Flushing ? - : Disclaimer , They sure can flush like any other dog including a Pontefrac pound hound :wink: ..
Its the Giving them the Freedom to choose their Startegy I have issue with in understanding the have been bred for flushing part )! (Did you think that was a typo error ? :lol: ) ..oh yes , Strategy , er/hum , .Now , to work on their strengths..If they are Labs then that would be ???
This bit actually blows me away honestly mate .... @ If a flushing dog demonstrates a talent for pointing. :roll: ..You can see why I am so perplexed with this ..me being a simpleton who has Flushing breeds that are Not Labs (disclaimer) - although they can flush !! (Disclaimer) and has Pointing Dogs although they can Flush !! (Disclaimer) and has Earth dogs although they can Flush !! -- Oh, did I mention they can also wait/stand still without a check chord at the entrance of the hole almost like they were on Point!!??> amazing honestly. :mrgreen:
.........
ps . I personally dont believe any dog chooses to point ! (including pointers) ..go figure ....then Ill probably get the jist.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby ezzy333 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:50 pm

I think the videos and posts that you see Higgens make are well thought out marketing tools and have little to do with a dogs ability to perform or think, if they even can. Trainers , by that very moniker, indicates to me that whoever it is, are training the dog and not just observing what the dog is doing. It is my opinion, at least, is that a dog with genetic traits uses them and is not thinking about them or at times he doesn't use them and that is where we as trainers come in to the picture. We teach or train the dog how and maybe even when, to use those genetic traits in a manner that is in agreement with what we want as well as how to use them to the best advantage for our needs. After the hunt, in front of the fire is the place for the dog to decide how close to the fire and whether to lay on the rug or on the hard floor. This way we all, dog and me, share in the decision making that leads to a great day in the field and here on Planet earth.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby polmaise » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:15 pm

Like Collies herding sheep ?
If the handler says cum bye ,when the dog is actually herding towards the handler then it looks like its a command for example . ? :mrgreen:
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby Trekmoor » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:01 am

I've seen labs that point and spaniels that point and I don't mind it at all. What they don't do is point as well as a decent pointing breed dog.
So if I like to see classy looking points and want to see a dog that covers a lot of ground fast , which I do, I won't buy a lab or a spaniel and then hope it points and quarters out to 2 - 300 yards.

I have an old cocker that points before he flushes and , at times, I have found the points he makes quite useful which I suppose is why the little guidance booklet for spaniel field trial judges here in Britain used to state that pointing should be considered to be an added excellence.

If you needed a dog for rough shooting (Upland shooting) and you had a lab or a spaniel that hunted close and then pointed prior to flushing it would be quite a useful dog. My cocker does this but I am not going to pretend that I trained him to. It is purely instinctive on his part. He points , I think, to get a good fix on the birds position and then he charges in with the intention of pegging it ! :lol:

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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby mnaj_springer » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:15 am

Bill T.

I know a lot of guys who like that little hesitation before the flush with their flushing dogs (usually retriever owners), but I have personally seen the benefits of a dog that flushes incredibly hard and fast: the bird does not have time to get to an ideal escape route (whether on foot or wing) and makes a mistake. I watched a Ruffed Grouse literally fly smack into a branch (almost fall out of the air) because of a hard flush. Made my job with the gun easy. Plus, birds focused on escaping a dog seem to forget about the gunners.

Again, to each his own. I couldn’t care less what Joe Blow does, but I know what I like in flushers and why I like it.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby Trekmoor » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:36 am

I don't disagree with you. In Britain a spaniel that pointed prior to flushing would probably be marked down in trials or eliminated ...especially if it held the point until the handler commanded the flush. No trialer I know of in Britain wants his spaniel to point ….our judges want to see "hard" flushes nowadays. Pointing was however, considered to be an added excellence in a trial spaniel some years back.


The main difference between what we expect and Americans expect is in what happens during or just after the flush. If our trial spaniels made a serious attempt to actually catch a flushing bird or rabbit it could be eliminated ….being marked down would be the least it could expect. I have seen spaniels here actually deliberately bump game with their noses in order to make reluctant to fly birds ...and rabbits , fly or run. Any serious attempt to actually capture the game would however be likely to get the dog eliminated ...or at least , "not required for a future run."

If the dog actually caught the bird or rabbit that dog would be out for pegging.

A spaniel or a lab that hunts and points is however, quite a useful dog in the minds of many rough shooters on this side of the pond.

There are differences here between trialing and just going hunting and this is one of them.

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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby mask » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:15 pm

There is such a thing as a pointing lab right? I see them for sale and advertised as such so what is the big deal about this video? It does look like the dog is being trained to point or they are trying to improve and advance this behavior. So am I missing something.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby nikegundog » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:35 pm

mask wrote:There is such a thing as a pointing lab right?

Sure there is just cross a Weim with a Lab and Voila.....pointing Lab.
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby DonF » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:18 pm

polmaise wrote:
Higgins wrote:When it comes to dogs (like Labs) that have been bred to flush birds, I like to give them the freedom to choose their strategy, to work with their strengths. If a flushing dog demonstrates a talent for pointing, and the type of hunting he'll be doing is conducive to it, I say let him point.


Im having Real issues understanding this . I have obviously misunderstood the whole concept (I usually do , so apologies) Im just plain old simple .
I thought Retrievers (Lets call them Labs for simplicity) were bred for Retrieving and Not Flushing ? - : Disclaimer , They sure can flush like any other dog including a Pontefrac pound hound :wink: ..
Its the Giving them the Freedom to choose their Startegy I have issue with in understanding the have been bred for flushing part )! (Did you think that was a typo error ? :lol: ) ..oh yes , Strategy , er/hum , .Now , to work on their strengths..If they are Labs then that would be ???
This bit actually blows me away honestly mate .... @ If a flushing dog demonstrates a talent for pointing. :roll: ..You can see why I am so perplexed with this ..me being a simpleton who has Flushing breeds that are Not Labs (disclaimer) - although they can flush !! (Disclaimer) and has Pointing Dogs although they can Flush !! (Disclaimer) and has Earth dogs although they can Flush !! -- Oh, did I mention they can also wait/stand still without a check chord at the entrance of the hole almost like they were on Point!!??> amazing honestly. :mrgreen:
.........
ps . I personally dont believe any dog chooses to point ! (including pointers) ..go figure ....then Ill probably get the jist.
atb
Sincerely


Have to agree that no dog chose's to point. But the instinct to is deeper in them than other breeds. If pointing dog's didn't need trained, where would we be. Dog's point for a cpouple different reason's. First they actually want to catch the bird but can't. So, they blink. A point is no more than a long blink. The dog learns that it will get it the bird if it wait's there. Then you'll notice that dog's that are able to catch a few birds on the ground think they can catch more. We teach that when we allow the dog's to pick up healthy live birds off the ground. Guy came here a few years ago with a GSP a preserve gave him. he said it had to much prey drive and refused to point a bird. Took under 20 min to get that dog pointing! Problem was, IMO, the preserve took the dog out and worked it on pen raised birds that didn't fly well and taught the dog it could catch birds on the ground. now had they stopped and got the dog on wild birds, that would not have happened and the dog would hesitate, blink, trying to figure out how to catch the bird until the bird taught the dog it couldn't and the trainer showed the dog how to get what it wanted. So you see a lab pointing? It's because it was taught to point! The best pointing dog's have it bred into them but take them out young and teach them to catch birds on the ground and that is what they'll do. If a dog has any desire to chase game, it can be taught to point. If a dog has any desire to chase game, it can be taught to retrieve. If a dog has any desire to chase game, it can be taught to flush! Want to teach a dog to flush hard Plant birds with flight feather pulled and the dog will take them out. It will not hesitate, blink, because it's learned it can catch them all. Now take that dog on wild birds and it will put them up and the reward is gained with a shot. Quit shooting and let the birds go and you will teach the dog to blink then rather than flush they just might run out! Dog's do what they learn to do either through us or other wise! A dog bred for the instinct to point is easier to teach to point and does a better job than one bred for something else!
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby polmaise » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:04 pm

DonF wrote: Dog's do what they learn to do either through us or other wise! A dog bred for the instinct to point is easier to teach to point and does a better job than one bred for something else!

+1
Wonder why there are so many specialists in one breed? :)
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby ezzy333 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:54 pm

The point is nothing more than the dog gathering itself so it can make the leap tp catch the bird. Over decades of breeding dogs that tend to hold that position longer we have developed a pointer. Dogs, cats, and just about every other animal including us, has the need to do that if they are going to be successful in the catch.

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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby DonF » Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:32 am

ezzy333 wrote:The point is nothing more than the dog gathering itself so it can make the leap tp catch the bird. Over decades of breeding dogs that tend to hold that position longer we have developed a pointer. Dogs, cats, and just about every other animal including us, has the need to do that if they are going to be successful in the catch.

Ezzy


Something I noticed with the pointing breeds is that they can come off point into a huge jump if not to stretched out. Has to be something to that. My son's old pointer Pete was that way. He never stretched out and came off the ground like a rocket. Son though it was funny and taught him to catch the birds when they flushed! Little snot! :-)
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby polmaise » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:01 pm

There Just has to be a market for a Pointing Cocker Spaniel . :lol:
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Re: VIDEO: Flushing Dogs That Choose to Point

Postby cjhills » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:45 pm

I must be missing something here. Why do you say dogs don't choose to point? I have never trained a dog to point. Every dog I ever had pointed on it's own. I also don't get pointing being blinking. Blinking the flush? To me blinking is ignoring a bird the dog knows is there. Generally because of something it is not comfortable with. Usually the gun or rough training for steadiness. Pointing is the pause before the pounce. Pointers are Bred to do it longer and trained to hold until released.
Their are definitely pointing Labs that do a good job. Maybe trained but they have at least some natural tendency to point...…………...Cj
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