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Total newb

Total newb

Postby Sylar » Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:35 pm

I have a 4 month old britt and I've been teaching basic stuff like recall, sit, down, stay and some fun tricks like nose kissing and spin which is all going great. Housebreaking is still not 100% but getting there. My main reasons for getting a britt is to have a family companion that will help with upland hunting when the season comes. I'm not looking to do any sort of competitions with her and I'd be perfectly happy to have a dog that simply finds birds for me in the field. She's had some gun training from the breeder but I haven't exposed her to any gunfire myself since the only weapons I have are a .270 rifle and a 12 gauge shotgun (which I assume are far to loud to start out with). I'm just not really sure where to go with her training wise beyond basic obedience.

What should I focus on?
What are the essentials I need to be successful?
Will she this ability just come naturally to her as she grows older? I know she's still quite young but there's no signs or pointing yet.

I really just want to make sure she'll get interested in finding birds without breaking the bank.
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Re: Total newb

Postby cjhills » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:44 am

Sylar:
You are probably on the right track. getting a really good recall is very important.
I don't worry much about birds or pointing at this age. You might let her chase a quail or two with their flight feathers pulled. Take her for a lot of walks in the field. If you plan to use a check cord get a 15 ft solid core 3/8 cord ( sold at Gundog Supplt or Lion Country) and let her learn to drag it. The solid core won't tangle. If you can take her where there are wild birds , that is generally good. But A rooster pheasant can be pretty intimidating to a young puppy. Let her learn about the field and have a good time being a puppy. Let her run free as much as possible and do not restrict her at this time.
Work towards getting her excited about birds. Don't worry to much about the gun yet. Get a helper when you introduce the gun have the helper shoot the gun at a distance when she is chasing a bird. When she shows no response to the shot move closer. Remember you want her to associate the gun with a bird. this is probably the thing you need to be most careful about. Don't use the 270 but you can use the twelve gauge if you are careful. Shotguns all sound pretty much the same.You can use a cheap blank pistol. They do have a sharper sound that seems to bother the puppy more.
Different puppies have different personalities, so this is all general. If you see something happening you don't like rethink what you are doing.
You can get some very good puppy training videos. Perfect Start from Perfection kennels George Hickox Training videos are very good. The Perfect Start method requires lots of birds and at least one helper.
Have Fun.......Cj
Last edited by cjhills on Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Total newb

Postby averageguy » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:03 am

I second the recommendation for the Perfect Start DVD. They also offer an excellent gun introduction/acclimation DVD. Have fun, take lots of photos, the puppy phase goes too fast.
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Re: Total newb

Postby mask » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:40 am

You might try training with Mo. It is a good book for anyone. Under no circumstances should a hi powered rifle be fired around any bird dog let alone a pup. Have fun and enjoy the ups and downs they are all part of the bird dog world.
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Re: Total newb

Postby Sharon » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:23 pm

averageguy wrote:I second the recommendation for the Perfect Start DVD. They also offer an excellent gun introduction/acclimation DVD. Have fun, take lots of photos, the puppy phase goes too fast.


X2
or

https://www.gundogsupply.com/huntsmith- ... d-set.html

and welcome to the forum. :)
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Re: Total newb

Postby polmaise » Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:06 pm

Sylar , Everyone is a total newb ! Including those experienced folk who have not done something before :wink:
I have never owned a Brittany . So You are one up on me ! :)
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Re: Total newb

Postby birddogger2 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:56 pm

To get your youngster to where it needs to be, so that it will help you in the field It needs to be pretty solid on one personality area and about three obedience behaviors.

The first ad most important thing is to make sure the dog likes you and wants to be with you. If the dog wants to be with you, there is no end to the things you can do with it. Make friends with the dog. He needs to understand that you are the boss, but that if he does what you want, it is all good.

As far as obedience behaviors, the crucial ones are "come In(recall), kennel(send away) and whoa(stop and stand still). If your dog does these three things, it will be an asset in the field.

There are lots of ways to get from here to there with a bird dog. I have never viewed the Perfect Start series, but have heard nothing but good things about it. If you have a good trainer nearby you... a few afternoons with that trainer might be well worth the money for what they can show you.

Training with MO is a very good training manual and well worth the price.

Your pup will not be ready for this year, so there is absolutely no reason to rush anything. Take it slow and make sure the journey is fun for both of you.

Enjoy this time with your youngster. It goes by VERY quickly.

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Re: Total newb

Postby ddoyle » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:18 pm

Enjoy! Know you are gonna screw things up...correction time wrong, letting a bad behavior go because your tired etc... I love Perfect Start/Perfect Finish as it is a video and you can literally see what exactly they are telling you to do. Also, different dogs so all good and books can be hard if you don't understand what they are talking about. Do like the Mo book. Again enjoy a birddog is for your enjoyment and dog is trained to how you want it. One last thing that I would recommend if invited to hunt with others be brutally honest about your dog, easy way to lose new friends is having the dag at like a fool and always undersell your dog. That way you will never be embarrassed and get a lot of compliments. I say this because ALL dogs can have crap days.
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Re: Total newb

Postby cjhills » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:32 am

A word about your dog liking you.
I am convinced that decently bred bird dogs from foot hunting lines are basically bred to hunt with you and stay in the general area. Even big running dogs learn to keep track of you if not trained to run off. It is not about liking you, it is about respecting the leader. She will be a happy well adjusted dog when she learns this.
I have seen dogs with very bad issues caused by people who think the dog won't like them if they make them obey. Eventually the day will come when treats and "good doggie" will not work.
What the dog really needs is to respect you. Don't let her jump on you or put her foot on yours and only let her come into your space when you invite her in. Do not be afraid to discipline her when she needs it. Be firm, fair and consistent...…..Cj
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Re: Total newb

Postby Settertude » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:59 am

cjhills wrote:A word about your dog liking you.


What the dog really needs is to respect you. Don't let her jump on you or put her foot on yours and only let her come into your space when you invite her in. Do not be afraid to discipline her when she needs it. Be firm, fair and consistent...…..Cj


I think there is plenty of room for touchy feely and respect. No offense meant as I understand where you are coming from.
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Re: Total newb

Postby birddogger2 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:50 pm

Settertude wrote:
cjhills wrote:A word about your dog liking you.


What the dog really needs is to respect you. Don't let her jump on you or put her foot on yours and only let her come into your space when you invite her in. Do not be afraid to discipline her when she needs it. Be firm, fair and consistent...…..Cj


I think there is plenty of room for touchy feely and respect. No offense meant as I understand where you are coming from.



Guys - it is, IMO...both.

Yes the dog has to respect you...of course. It has to do what you ask it to do, right when you ask it.

But there is a difference between a dog doing what you ask because it feels it HAS to, to avoid discipline and a dog doing what you ask because it WANTS to...to please its partner and pack leader. I want a dog that WANTS to do what I need it to do, because that is when the magic happens in the field between dog and master.

If the dog does what it is supposed to with joy and enthusiasm... it ain't just out of respect or the expectation of a correction if it does not.

And watching a dog that does its thing with independence, with joy and with enthusiasm is what Ilike.

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Re: Total newb

Postby cjhills » Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:26 pm

My point to the Op remains the same. Unless there is something wrong in the dogs breeding or mental makeup, she will like being with you because dogs are pretty much hardwired to run with their pack. You give her food and take care of her. Dogs develop serious issues if their trainer is afraid to discipline because the dog might not like him if he does. That is not how dogs think. I see trainers every day put dogs through brutal Force fetch programs. The dog still thinks they are god when they are done..Cj
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Re: Total newb

Postby Sharon » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:27 pm

Well said!
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Re: Total newb

Postby birddogger2 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:08 pm

cjhills wrote:My point to the Op remains the same. Unless there is something wrong in the dogs breeding or mental makeup, she will like being with you because dogs are pretty much hardwired to run with their pack. You give her food and take care of her. Dogs develop serious issues if their trainer is afraid to discipline because the dog might not like him if he does. That is not how dogs think. I see trainers every day put dogs through brutal Force fetch programs. The dog still thinks they are god when they are done..Cj


cJ -

Obviously you have never been around field trial bred pointers if you think they are hardwired to run with the pack. Some are, but some...well lets just say that if they had their choice, they would be LEADING the pack. They are hardwired to be out front and going hard, looking for birds. Some dogs couldn't give a rat's patoot if there was a hunter behind them or not. The very best of them don't really need us at all. THEY are the hunters. They would do just fine without us...unless they WANT us to be a part of what they do.

Those are the ones you need to make friends with at a young age, if you want them to come back around for you. That is what I generally hunt behind. I have seen a fair amount of it in field trial bred pointers, but the same balls to the wall attitude exists in every pointing dog breed that I have seen... to some degree.

Of course you can bring a dog along without getting up close and personal with the dog. However, I do think it makes it easier for the dog and the owner if the dog enjoys being with them and has fun while learning.

If I had a dog that didn't give me the 'ol fazoole every once in a while... that most probably ain't enough dog. But that is just me.

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Re: Total newb

Postby cjhills » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:04 pm

This all makes for very nice posts, but it is mostly baloney. I admit to having no experience with pointers because they are nearly non existent in the country I live and hunt in. I have seen them in trials so I do know how they run. The few that I have worked with had the same mindset as any other dog. They wanted a leader.
My point to the OP again. It is fine to think your dog likes you. But he is born to please himself. Just make sure you don't get so concerned about her liking you that you are afraid to discipline her. There are signs that she is pushing you. don't let her put her foot on yours,jump on you, push and demand your attention and go through the door ahead of you. You can pet her and play with her all you want but when you want to. body language is importat in dog communication.Try to look like a leader. Dogs are happiest with a calm leader who will take care of them. Kind of like a football coach. The players probably won't like him but if he is good at his job they will respect him........Cj
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Re: Total newb

Postby ezzy333 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:24 pm

cjhills wrote:This all makes for very nice posts, but it is mostly baloney. I admit to having no experience with pointers because they are nearly non existent in the country I live and hunt in. I have seen them in trials so I do know how they run. The few that I have worked with had the same mindset as any other dog. They wanted a leader.
My point to the OP again. It is fine to think your dog likes you. But he is born to please himself. Just make sure you don't get so concerned about her liking you that you are afraid to discipline her. There are signs that she is pushing you. don't let her put her foot on yours,jump on you, push and demand your attention and go through the door ahead of you. You can pet her and play with her all you want but when you want to. body language is importat in dog communication.Try to look like a leader. Dogs are happiest with a calm leader who will take care of them. Kind of like a football coach. The players probably won't like him but if he is good at his job they will respect him........Cj

If you don't think a dog liking you makes a big difference, then take the time to go to an obedience trial and watch the dogs. Most are well trained and perform very well but occasionally you will find the dog that is performing because it wants to and you will see the winner and a whole new level of performance.

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Re: Total newb

Postby Sylar » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:48 am

Thanks for all the replies and advice. I live in a small rural community of approximately 6k people and I've tried asking around social media for a trainer nearby with no luck on that part. I'll check out the perfect start/finish dvds, but if it requires things like launchers, captured birds or even other hunting dogs that would be a issue for me. Are these things required? There's plenty of crown land around that I could take her out to where wild birds could be found but I would assume it wouldn't help much if she's not trained to find them. I forgot to mention I'm also teaching "whoa" every time I feed her, not sure if that would be effective though.
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Re: Total newb

Postby birddogger2 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:44 am

ezzy333 wrote:
cjhills wrote:This all makes for very nice posts, but it is mostly baloney. I admit to having no experience with pointers because they are nearly non existent in the country I live and hunt in. I have seen them in trials so I do know how they run. The few that I have worked with had the same mindset as any other dog. They wanted a leader.
My point to the OP again. It is fine to think your dog likes you. But he is born to please himself. Just make sure you don't get so concerned about her liking you that you are afraid to discipline her. There are signs that she is pushing you. don't let her put her foot on yours,jump on you, push and demand your attention and go through the door ahead of you. You can pet her and play with her all you want but when you want to. body language is importat in dog communication.Try to look like a leader. Dogs are happiest with a calm leader who will take care of them. Kind of like a football coach. The players probably won't like him but if he is good at his job they will respect him........Cj

If you don't think a dog liking you makes a big difference, then take the time to go to an obedience trial and watch the dogs. Most are well trained and perform very well but occasionally you will find the dog that is performing because it wants to and you will see the winner and a whole new level of performance.
Ezzy


Exactly my point EZZY. Thank you.

My experience has been predominantly with field trial bred pointers and a fair number of those dogs have an abundance of independence and an insatiable desire to find birds. However I have seen a fair share of GSP's, Setters, Brittanys and Vizslak with the same levels of desire and nearly the same levels of independence. Soooo, it makes good sense to assume a well bred bird dog will have some of this in its personality.

You can train any dog, to behave properly. It is easy to take that special spark out of a dog to make it behave.

To use cJ's analogy... you don't have to like your football coach to play well, just respect him/her and do what you are being trained and coached to do. A good coach will prepare his players thoroughly and they will execute properly... or they will sit on the bench.

BUT if that coach inspires you and encourages you to reach for everything that is inside of you ... THAT is how those "plays of the season" happen.

A bird dog that does its job because it has been well trained to do it is a good mechanic. A dog that does its job because it has been well trained AND does it with joy and enthusiasm... is an artist.

It may be baloney to some but to me...it makes all the difference, because I want more. Perhaps the OP will as well.


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Re: Total newb

Postby cjhills » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:41 am

Sylar:
trying hard to keep your thread from being hijacked.
My point was and still is this. Do not be afraid to discipline because you think he won't like you, if he views you as a leader he will respect you and happily do what you want. How else could a trainer do anything with a dog he never met.

Be aware nothing that BD2 or Ezzy3 wrote has anything to do with the dog liking it's trainer. It is all about letting the dog do what was bred into her.
I just had my step daughter's dog here because she would attack anyone who went near what she perceived as her possessions. She loved her owner and was overjoyed to see her when she came home. She also bit her bad several times in disputes over possessions and bit several other people. She attacked me twice the second time she barely survived. This is a 55 pound dog. She is a very nice dog and when I seen her 5 months after she left here, she sat respectfully, happily went through all the commands I taught and walked calmly and proudly at heel on a loose leash. I did nothing to make this dog like me and I am sure she likes her owner much better than me, but she will do things for me that she will not do for her owner and the difference in her demeanor is plain to see when she walks with me. That is respect.
My step daughter was afraid she would not like it if she disciplined her. It does not work that way …..Cj
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Re: Total newb

Postby shags » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:58 am

I'm with CJ on this.

Being liked by a dog is really cute and all, but being respected is way more important. IME dogs will mostly like those who they respect, as long as that person is fair and evenhanded with discipline, and can show appropriate affection to the dog.

A dog that lacks respect can be a nightmare. I do some fill-in tech work for my vet, and one afternoon a couple brought in their dog for vaccinations. The beast was snarly and surly and a definite bite risk. The owners related that the dog always pretty much did what he wants because they thought he'd hate them if they corrected bad behavior. Sometimes the dog would park itself with a bone or chewey in the hallway, and would attack anyone who needed to leave or go into a bedroom or bathroom. They wound up euthing the dog later, when it went after a kid.
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Re: Total newb

Postby birddogger2 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:51 am

Sylar -

It seems that the position on training that I took has been framed as an either or situation. Either you have a happy dog or a respectful one.

That is not the case, nor should it be. It should be BOTH.

Of course the dog must do what it is asked to do by its trainer/owner/master. That is what training is for.
Of course, given the choice, a dog will always do what it perceives to be in its own self interest. It is an apex predator.

My position is that if the individual owner/trainer takes the time to bond with and develop a relationship of trust with the puppy, it will do several things. First it will keep the enthusiasm level of the young dog high during the training process. Second it will use the trust that has been developed to facilitate the training and allow it to proceed with a minimum amount of negative pressure. Third, the dog will tend to accept the inevitable negative pressure associated with training with less resistance, again because of the trust it has in the trainer.
Lastly, when the new, inexperienced trainer/owner screws up...which is inevitable... the dog will tend to shake it off...once again because of the trust.

When it is at its best...the trust and the respect is mutual.

It is NOT either or. It is both.

The professional trainer may not have the time or the need to develop the kind of bond with a dog that I am talking about since they are working against a timeline and to prepare a dog to hand back to the owner. I understand that. A pro has to have a fairly well defined program that they move their dogs through in an orderly fashion, to provide value to their customers.

However, the one dog owner does indeed have the time to develop that kind of bond with their one dog that they are going to have for the next 10-15 years.

I have been fortunate to have witnessed some amazing field trial performances by some awesome bird dogs. Typically, pro handlers develop sufficient rapport with all their dogs which allows them to compete with the dog.

However, there are a few dogs over the years that I have seen which have a special bond with their handlers. The mutual trust allows he handler to give the dog freedom to do its best and causes the dog to always keep the needs of its human partner in the equation.

Dogs like that tend to win... a lot... in very stiff competition because they do some amazing things for their human partner.

There is no reason that someone's hunting dog cannot do amazing things for their hunter/owner, if that same kind of bond is there.

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Re: Total newb

Postby polmaise » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:21 pm

Sylar wrote:I have a 4 month old britt and I've been teaching basic stuff like recall, sit, down, stay and some fun tricks like nose kissing and spin which is all going great. Housebreaking is still not 100% but getting there. My main reasons for getting a britt is to have a family companion that will help with upland hunting when the season comes. I'm not looking to do any sort of competitions with her and I'd be perfectly happy to have a dog that simply finds birds for me in the field. She's had some gun training from the breeder but I haven't exposed her to any gunfire myself since the only weapons I have are a .270 rifle and a 12 gauge shotgun (which I assume are far to loud to start out with). I'm just not really sure where to go with her training wise beyond basic obedience.

What should I focus on?
What are the essentials I need to be successful?
Will she this ability just come naturally to her as she grows older? I know she's still quite young but there's no signs or pointing yet.

I really just want to make sure she'll get interested in finding birds without breaking the bank.

I had a Client recently ,who brought a Young dog for an assessment for potential Gun Dog Training . ..It really doesnt matter the breed honestly !
Most who get a Gun Dog Breed that have had no previous experience , Good or Bad or In -Different or whatever ,are drawn on the course (internet) ..by the course of either the Breed or the words Gun Dog.
I asked on First Introduction "What is Your expectation of what you want the dog to do" ? ...
I will not bore you with the long sentence from the owner ,which included all sorts of quotes and phrases and conjectures which were obviously snippets of Hundreds of Information gathered from various sources and had No Logical sense . (To Me) . So I waited till this "Mythical" dog in the eyes of the owner was port raid , and asked "So How do you think You are going to achieve this?" ...
...
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Re: Total newb

Postby cjhills » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:36 pm

A disciplined dog with good leader is a HAPPY DOG. The dog needs a leader not a friend. He is very likely to get neither if you think he needs a friend......Cj
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Re: Total newb

Postby birddogger2 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:59 pm

cjhills wrote:A disciplined dog with good leader is a HAPPY DOG.



The dog needs a leader not a friend. He is very likely to get neither if you think he needs a friend......Cj


I do agree with the second statement, especially that a dog needs a leader first and foremost... but I question why the leader cannot also be a friend. I believe it is possible and desirable to be both. A leader first...of course...but a trusted partner as well.

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Re: Total newb

Postby cjhills » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:01 pm

birddogger2 wrote:
cjhills wrote:A disciplined dog with good leader is a HAPPY DOG.



The dog needs a leader not a friend. He is very likely to get neither if you think he needs a friend......Cj


I do agree with the second statement, especially that a dog needs a leader first and foremost... but I question why the leader cannot also be a friend. I believe it is possible and desirable to be both. A leader first...of course...but a trusted partner as well.

RayG

Sharon or Ezzy: The second statement in the above quote appears to be by me but it is not. How does that Work and who can insert a statement into my post. This is just getting way too silly.
think about people who let their dog lick face and say she's giving kisses. Well guess what else she has been kissing......Cj
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Re: Total newb

Postby oldbeek » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:02 pm

If training aids are out then Perfect start is to expensive. Put a bird wing on a fishing line and see if the dog gets excited. Teach strong obedience training especially recall. Use a 20 ft check cord all the time. If you can find wild quail, walk dog into them on the cord and whoa him. When the birds flush keep him whoaed up. You pro guys have turned this amateurs post into an argument on how to make a perfect competition dog. He doesn't even know if his dog has any hunting instinct. Basic obedience training and a little hunting instinct can make all the bird dog most people want. I used Walters " Gun Dog" book on my first pointer 40 years ago and thought I had the best dog in the world. He would round up running wild chucker on open desert and pin them for me. Never had a dog since that had that much brains. He loved me and I loved him.
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Re: Total newb

Postby averageguy » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:01 am

Friend vs Leader - I think dogs respond well to fair and consistent leadership which critically includes praise for work done right. I also think all dogs are not the same and attempting to train them as though they are is off the mark. The first dog I trained was 50 years ago. The dog was a German Shepard whose mission in life was to please me, working for verbal praise and strokes on the head and looking broken hearted with a stern verbal NO from a 10 year kid.

Most of my gundogs have required a stronger hand in the right moments than that dog did. I use OB to keep my dogs at a place where they understand I am the leader. Last night a UPS delivery came up our rural farm lane and the driveway sensor sounded off. My GWP jumped to his feet and ran to the windows and doors in a guarding his turf manner. If I allowed him he would bolt through the door when I went out to take the delivery. So I placed him in a down command where he remained until I came back into the house and praised him for his compliance and then released him to move about. The behavior I am controlling could get out of hand if I did not handle the dog in the manner that I do.

That same GWP worships me in the field. I have never had to do anything to persuade him to keep track of me and he naturally swings to the front of whatever direction I am hunting in, hunting out bold and happy to be working. Everything the dog finds he will retrieve to hand e.g. antler sheds, live animals, dead heads, deer legs. When he retrieves shot birds his tail and head are straight up as he proudly returns straight to me with the prize. He is an obviously happy dog. The rapport we have is founded in spending a great deal of time together and my consistency in providing praise and discipline every step of the way.

The right mix of that will vary by the dog as will the degree of gentle vs more harsh in the reprimands.
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Re: Total newb

Postby cjhills » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:02 am

This post is exactly my point and why I do not think it is proper to tell a new trainer he needs to make his dog like him.
I am totally convinced if you decided to beat the crap out of this dog it would not change how he thinks of you. That is bred into him. Not that I think you should do that. He respects you as his leader and he is proud and happy to do what you want. But, if you tried to make him like you by letting him do what he wants and rewarding bad behavior, such as jumping on you and demanding your attention because you think when he does that it shows that he loves you, he would go the other direction and stands a good chance of turning into a dangerous over protective dog.
this is the type of dog I strive to breed......Cj
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Re: Total newb

Postby birddogger2 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:20 am

cjhills wrote:This post is exactly my point and why I do not think it is proper to tell a new trainer he needs to make his dog like him.
I am totally convinced if you decided to beat the crap out of this dog it would not change how he thinks of you. That is bred into him. Not that I think you should do that. He respects you as his leader and he is proud and happy to do what you want. But, if you tried to make him like you by letting him do what he wants and rewarding bad behavior, such as jumping on you and demanding your attention because you think when he does that it shows that he loves you, he would go the other direction and stands a good chance of turning into a dangerous over protective dog.
this is the type of dog I strive to breed......Cj


My GOD man! Where do you get this stuff?

No one, anywhere in this thread, or anywhere else on this board that I have seen...advocates allowing a dog to continue bad behavior...MUCH LESS REWARD THEM for it. That would be stupid AND counterproductive to the development of a good bird dog and absolutely counterproductive to the development of a family dog.

You really need to read what folks are actually saying and not go off the deep end.

If you breed dogs that don't go anywhere when you cut them loose, you probably don't have to worry about whether the dog likes you or not.

If, on the other hand, you are dealing with a dog that has designs on that far treeline, whether or not the dog actually likes being around you can have a lot to do with that dog coming back around for you after it rims that treeline. If a big going dog likes you it will come back for you instead of heading out for the next treeline...because it wants to be with you. If it don't...it may not.

If you don't have a big going dog, or if you crushed the desire to seek out of the dog...you don't have to worry about it.

I guess it comes down to what you want a bird dog for. Some folks only want a tool to help them kill birds and retrieve them.

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Re: Total newb

Postby Settertude » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:21 am

I tend to look at training and bird dogs in a somewhat simplistic way based on many years of owning, training, associating and reading about such.

These two groupings are very general, but in my mind help to bracket where an individual may want to be.

A mechanical tool

A friend and partner

Its the owner's mindset and desires, as well as his degree of self-knowledge, that will determine where he falls along the continuum on which these two lie.
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Re: Total newb

Postby ddoyle » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:53 pm

I am sorry to pick at this sore BUT how would you ever even train with only love? If you train with love and dogs disobeys a command what do you do? Love ‘em until they kennel?
I train a dog to work with me and not just obey me...makes time in the field much more enjoyable. How many times have you seen a dog on point looking out the corner of their eye because of pressure to do it “right”?
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Re: Total newb

Postby cjhills » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:09 pm

Anthropomorphism can't be trained but the belief that it exists ruins good dogs.....Cj
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Re: Total newb

Postby Sharon » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:02 pm

cjhills wrote:
birddogger2 wrote:
cjhills wrote:A disciplined dog with good leader is a HAPPY DOG.


The dog needs a leader not a friend. He is very likely to get neither if you think he needs a friend......Cj


I do agree with the second statement, especially that a dog needs a leader first and foremost... but I question why the leader cannot also be a friend. I believe it is possible and desirable to be both. A leader first...of course...but a trusted partner as well.

RayG

Sharon or Ezzy: The second statement in the above quote appears to be by me but it is not. How does that Work and who can insert a statement into my post. This is just getting way too silly.
think about people who let their dog lick face and say she's giving kisses. Well guess what else she has been kissing......Cj


...............................................

Bizarre. NOt added by me or Ezzy I'm sure . We don't add , we may delete. No idea how that happened. Just delete what you didn't say , or if you can't because it is in a copy, let me know and I'll do it. Also let us know if this happens again please.

(I deleted the statement you felt was not yours. )
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Re: Total newb

Postby polmaise » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:14 pm

cjhills wrote:Anthropomorphism can't be trained but the belief that it exists ruins good dogs.....Cj

Amen !
One is Human ..and the Other is Dog .
How each or everyone communicates is determined on how you perceive this .
..........
Any one on here Speak "Dawg" ? ... :wink:
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Re: Total newb

Postby birddogger2 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:26 pm

Sylar wrote:Thanks for all the replies and advice. I live in a small rural community of approximately 6k people and I've tried asking around social media for a trainer nearby with no luck on that part. I'll check out the perfect start/finish dvds, but if it requires things like launchers, captured birds or even other hunting dogs that would be a issue for me. Are these things required? There's plenty of crown land around that I could take her out to where wild birds could be found but I would assume it wouldn't help much if she's not trained to find them. I forgot to mention I'm also teaching "whoa" every time I feed her, not sure if that would be effective though.


Actually, teaching the dog to stand and wait to eat until released is VERY good use of your time with the dog. Larry Mueller expanded this concept in his book "Speed training your bird dog". The takes a number of the things you need to do with your dog , regardless, and uses that necessary interaction as an opportunity to teach something, thereby "speeding " the process along. Look for those opportunities and use them to your advantage.

Always remember, what you permit the dog to do, you teach the dog to do and what you allow...you encourage.

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Re: Total newb

Postby ddoyle » Sun Oct 14, 2018 3:54 pm

I agree with Ray G on this as it also backs into one of the points in Perfect videos. Not introducing whoa around the point allows you to reinforce command without having to use pressure when dog is on point.
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Re: Total newb

Postby birddogger2 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:46 am

Sylar wrote:Thanks for all the replies and advice. I live in a small rural community of approximately 6k people and I've tried asking around social media for a trainer nearby with no luck on that part. I'll check out the perfect start/finish dvds, but if it requires things like launchers, captured birds or even other hunting dogs that would be a issue for me. Are these things required? There's plenty of crown land around that I could take her out to where wild birds could be found but I would assume it wouldn't help much if she's not trained to find them. I forgot to mention I'm also teaching "whoa" every time I feed her, not sure if that would be effective though.


Sylar -

To figure out whether or not your youngster has "birdiness" in them, all you need is butterflies or song birds. Take the dog out for a walk and see what you see. I think you will be pleased at how "birdy" your youngster will be.

I have to say that just about all the Brittanys I have ever seen...including some that were conformation champions in the show ring, were pretty good hunters when given the chance.

There are any, many ways to get from here to there with a bird dog. Many of us (myself included) do not have the luxury of running and training on wild birds, so we do lots of other things and use numerous tolls and training aids to move the process along.

Oldbeek's post earlier, was a reminder of just how simple it can be if you have wild birds.
An old training book that you might find useful is Paul Long's "Training Pointing Dogs". Another is "Training with Mo" by Martha Greenlee. Both books are readily available and quite inexpensive. They are both very easy reads. They are different methods, but each has a wealth of information for the new trainer.

Good luck with your youngster and have fun.

I do apologize for getting off track and failing to adequately address your questions and needs.

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Re: Total newb

Postby cjhills » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:00 am

cjhills wrote:Sylar:
You are probably on the right track. getting a really good recall is very important.
I don't worry much about birds or pointing at this age. You might let her chase a quail or two with their flight feathers pulled. Take her for a lot of walks in the field. If you plan to use a check cord get a 15 ft solid core 3/8 cord ( sold at Gundog Supplt or Lion Country) and let her learn to drag it. The solid core won't tangle. If you can take her where there are wild birds , that is generally good. But A rooster pheasant can be pretty intimidating to a young puppy. Let her learn about the field and have a good time being a puppy. Let her run free as much as possible and do not restrict her at this time.
Work towards getting her excited about birds. Don't worry to much about the gun yet. Get a helper when you introduce the gun have the helper shoot the gun at a distance when she is chasing a bird. When she shows no response to the shot move closer. Remember you want her to associate the gun with a bird. this is probably the thing you need to be most careful about. Don't use the 270 but you can use the twelve gauge if you are careful. Shotguns all sound pretty much the same.You can use a cheap blank pistol. They do have a sharper sound that seems to bother the puppy more.
Different puppies have different personalities, so this is all general. If you see something happening you don't like rethink what you are doing.
You can get some very good puppy training videos. Perfect Start from Perfection kennels George Hickox Training videos are very good. The Perfect Start method requires lots of birds and at least one helper.
Have Fun.......Cj

Sylar
Back up to the beginning.
In a later post you questioned taking her to the field if she has not been trained to point. Decently bred birddogs do not need to be trained to point, birds will do that. Different dogs point at different ages and she may be a bit young, but she will likely point. If you have access to cover with wild birds use it. Many trainers would love to have that situation. If you get her gun conditioned and season is open don't be afraid to shoot an accidental flush or two, either by you or the dog. This can help her understand the gun gets the bird. I don't shoot intentional flushes. Some Brittneys, especially smaller ones, do not have a lot of style on point. Remember style only counts for style, it does not make the dog a better birddog or family dog. Make sure you know when she is on point. If she will hold point and let you walk in front, wonderful!!! but don't expect her to be steady to flush and don't whoa her when she chases. Do not approach her from behind when she is on point. circle wide and approach from the side. Some dogs get very nervous when approached from behind. If the dog is whoa broke I do quietly caution her on time as I go in to flush.
Wild birds will teach the dog a lot, don't be afraid to use them and don,t control or correct her. She can do no wrong at this age. serious training can wait until she is
older. Just enjoy now Watching her turn into a little birddog is one of the best parts of dog ownership........Cj
Last edited by cjhills on Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Total newb

Postby Settertude » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:37 am

cjhills wrote:
cjhills wrote:Sylar:
You are probably on the right track. getting a really good recall is very important.
I don't worry much about birds or pointing at this age. You might let her chase a quail or two with their flight feathers pulled. Take her for a lot of walks in the field. If you plan to use a check cord get a 15 ft solid core 3/8 cord ( sold at Gundog Supplt or Lion Country) and let her learn to drag it. The solid core won't tangle. If you can take her where there are wild birds , that is generally good. But A rooster pheasant can be pretty intimidating to a young puppy. Let her learn about the field and have a good time being a puppy. Let her run free as much as possible and do not restrict her at this time.
Work towards getting her excited about birds. Don't worry to much about the gun yet. Get a helper when you introduce the gun have the helper shoot the gun at a distance when she is chasing a bird. When she shows no response to the shot move closer. Remember you want her to associate the gun with a bird. this is probably the thing you need to be most careful about. Don't use the 270 but you can use the twelve gauge if you are careful. Shotguns all sound pretty much the same.You can use a cheap blank pistol. They do have a sharper sound that seems to bother the puppy more.
Different puppies have different personalities, so this is all general. If you see something happening you don't like rethink what you are doing.
You can get some very good puppy training videos. Perfect Start from Perfection kennels George Hickox Training videos are very good. The Perfect Start method requires lots of birds and at least one helper.
Have Fun.......Cj

Sylar
Back up to the beginning.
In a later post you questioned taking her to the field if she has not been trained to point. Decently bred birddogs do not need to be trained to point, birds will do that. Different dogs point at different ages and she may be a bit young, but she will likely point. If you have access to cover with wild birds use it. Many trainers would love to have that situation. If you get her gun conditioned and season is open don't be afraid to shoot an accidental flush or two, either by you or the dog. This can help her understand the gun gets the bird. I don't shoot intentional flushes. Some Brittneys, especially smaller ones, do not have a lot of style on point. Remember style only counts for style it does not make the dog a better birddog or family dog. Make sure you know when she is on point. If she will hold point and let you walk in front, wonderful!!! but don't expect her to be steady to flush and don't whoa her when she chases. Do not approach her from behind when she is on point. circle wide and approach from the side. Some dogs get very nervous when approached from behind. If the dog is whoa broke I do quietly caution her on time as I go in to flush.
Wild birdswill teach thedog a lot don't be afraid to use them and don,t control or correct her. She can do no wrong at this age. serious training can wait until she is
older. Just enjoy now Watching turn into a little birddog is one of thebest parts of dog ownership........Cj


There ya go...good stuff in my opinion.
Watching a pup's natural stuff surface is an adventure for both. Learn to 'read' your pup and take pleasure in small steps and then bang--one day, you will watch it click and that is a very cool thing.
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