how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

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weimdogman
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how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by weimdogman » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:25 pm

hunting pheasants with bird dogs for close to 40 years and it amazes me when dogs cant find a dead bird?

I mean a deadbird laying in plainsight. I had a Weim who was a very,very good retriever,never lost 1 bird in 2 years, with a dead bird laying in a barren grazed pasture and she searched all around. she had marked it down but just couldnt pick up the scent? i just had this happoen again and no the dog isnt birdshy. I have witnessed this with multiple dogs over the years.

anybody else experiance this? any ideas what causes it?

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:04 pm

It's called "air washing" the bird. When they fly through the air their scent is "washed" off them and dogs can't scent the. I've had that happen in cover, couldn't find the bird, left and a scent pool had built up. When I got back,dog got the bird no problem.
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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by polmaise » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:35 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:It's called "air washing" the bird. When they fly through the air their scent is "washed" off them and dogs can't scent the. I've had that happen in cover, couldn't find the bird, left and a scent pool had built up. When I got back,dog got the bird no problem.
I can buy that for a dollar .

"I mean a deadbird laying in plainsight. ". He said .

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by JONOV » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:35 pm

polmaise wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:It's called "air washing" the bird. When they fly through the air their scent is "washed" off them and dogs can't scent the. I've had that happen in cover, couldn't find the bird, left and a scent pool had built up. When I got back,dog got the bird no problem.
I can buy that for a dollar .

"I mean a deadbird laying in plainsight. ". He said .
I’m no biologist or Veterinarian, but I think it’s fair to say they don’t see the same as human beings do. What’s plain site to us may not be to a dog. I know when I deer hunt I can look directly at a deer wearing an orange shirt and if I’m still, the deer will ignore me. To me I can spot a human in a tree stand half a mile away.

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by porochi » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:05 pm

Happens to me too. My GSP is great at finding live birds but sucks at finding dead ones. I'm better at hunting dead than he is. So we make a great pair. I need him to find the live ones and he needs me to find the dead ones.

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by JONOV » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:12 am

Thinking again about this...I sent my dog on a dove retrieve that he didn't mark, but the dove was visible to me from where i sat. He struggled to find it. But, I'd take a walk around the field and guys would say, 'I couldn't find on here or there' and he'd come out with it.

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by weimdogman » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:38 am

In plain sight really wasnt about the dogs abillity or lack of abillity to "see" the dead bird. It was merely proof that I could witness this conundrum.

I have read of studies which document that dogs vision is better then it may seem, their brain processes images differantly then ours. Movement, as it relates to body posture, is what images are processed for. A simple explanation: a owner can stand a short distance from the dog and the dog doesnt recognize them until they move/walk/gesture. At quite a long distance the same is still true. Now you know how a dog can retrieve a injured bird which you believe was missed.

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by polmaise » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:19 pm

[quote="weimdogman"]In plain sight really wasnt about the dogs abillity or lack of abillity to "see" the dead bird. It was merely proof that I could witness this conundrum.
/quote]
Plain scent . ?

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by isonychia » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:53 pm

I have definitely found birds before my dog, but I have never lost a bird that I "knew" went down. If I give him (the older brittany that is) enough time, he will find it. This post makes me appreciate that more. I remember the hardest search was on a triple, which I never ever ever do on grouse but there was a friend with me and we just hammered that covey, him shooting 1 and me a double. The 3rd bird took us about 30 minutes to find, but we found it.

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by kstater » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:23 pm

I had a quail last year that we shot and it landed on a road next to some heavy cover. My pup has a great nose and retrieves well. I watched her run within a couple feet of it at least twice and I finally just picked it up....completely baffled. The air wash theory makes some sense to me but she pointed several singles after the covey flush that would have also been washed.

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by polmaise » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:43 pm

You certainly cant teach experience.
On a Shoot day , There was a crowd of Guns and folk with their dogs all searching a small area as I approached .
"What you looking for "? ..There was x11 dogs all hunting this area with their handlers .
"One of the guns said this Rooster landed right here ,stone dead "
...
There was an upturned Tree stump where the roots were torn up on last years Fall , it was full of water .
I sent my Spaniel to hunt the same area that the other dogs had been hunting ...She stopped at the flooded Tree stump , stuck her head under the water and pulled out the bird .
I reckon , it was Invisible to her .

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:15 am

I once spectated at an Open Retriever trial on a warm day near to the start of the shooting season. A covey of partridge was flushed and one bird fell stone dead on to fairly short stubbles about 40 - 50 yards behind the line of trailers. It looked like a very easy retrieve as we could all see the bird lying dead on it's belly.

The judges tried 5 dogs in succession on that bird and none of those experienced and trial winning dogs could either see it or scent it. One of the dogs tried was a field trial champion and his owner handled him "onto the sixpence." The dog actually stood on the bird for a second but still did not detect it.

After that the judges just picked the bird by hand and sent no more dogs ! They felt that every dog in the trial could have been eliminated on that one bird ….it had already eliminated 5 pretty good dogs !

I have seen things similar to that happen many times , I've seen it happen with pheasants, partridge, grouse and snipe.
It sometimes happens that several dogs have tried and failed to find a bird and then along comes some hairy assed little demon of a dog and it catches wind of the bird from a different height or a different angle and has itself a somewhat lucky find ! On a couple of occasions it has been one of my dogs that has found such a bird but I know better than to brag about it because the same dog is sure to fail on a different bird on another day ! :lol:

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by polmaise » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:16 pm

Trekmoor wrote: The judges tried 5 dogs in succession on that bird and none of those experienced and trial winning dogs could either see it or scent it. One of the dogs tried was a field trial champion and his owner handled him "onto the sixpence." The dog actually stood on the bird for a second but still did not detect it.

After that the judges just picked the bird by hand and sent no more dogs ! They felt that every dog in the trial could have been eliminated on that one bird ….it had already eliminated 5 pretty good dogs !
Bill T.
Rarely done these days (un like in the day) . !
Pretty sad ..(imo) ...and poor judging and Poor ..qualifying of Game finding ability in favour of handling . ..One breeds from these dogs that qualify .

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:57 pm

I watched exactly what others have stated happen where the dog is standing in immediate vicinity of a dead bird and they have NO idea it is right there!?! It has happened on Bobwhite, woodcock, etc. with both veteran bird dogs and young ones too. It is puzzling!
I agree with gonehuntin' that birds get air-washed. I think there is another dynamic(s) that goes hand-in-hand with this phenomenon. Live birds have a pulse and breathe. Could the absence of these two elements play a role is the success/failure of what might otherwise appear to be a simple straight-forward find/retrieve (coupled with the air-wash). That might help to explain why dogs can find singles soon after a covey disperses.
???

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:38 pm

Featherfinder wrote:I watched exactly what others have stated happen where the dog is standing in immediate vicinity of a dead bird and they have NO idea it is right there!?! It has happened on Bobwhite, woodcock, etc. with both veteran bird dogs and young ones too. It is puzzling!
I agree with gonehuntin' that birds get air-washed. I think there is another dynamic(s) that goes hand-in-hand with this phenomenon. Live birds have a pulse and breathe. Could the absence of these two elements play a role is the success/failure of what might otherwise appear to be a simple straight-forward find/retrieve (coupled with the air-wash). That might help to explain why dogs can find singles soon after a covey disperses.
???
That is a really interesting theory and I very strongly believe it.
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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by weimdogman » Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:24 pm

I believe if I waited awhile and then brought the dog back it would find the bird after a scent fog occurs.
Polmaise, you seem to not believe this could happen with a good dog? You have never seen it?
I am not familiar with hunting in Scotland, do you hunt wild birds?

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by NEhomer » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:27 am

My setter locked up solid on a dead bird this weekend. It's something he's never done so I'm still wondering if the point wasn't a live bird that was a runner.

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:33 am

My Brittany was eliminated from a field trial once for pointing and then moving in on and catching a live partridge. The local gamekeeper saved me from "the walk of shame" by examining the bird closely and finding pellet marks on one of it's wings. My bitch was allowed back into the trial. She'd pointed on a live but wounded bird that had been shot but not found a day or two earlier.

The keeper said he'd looked for that bird for quite a while so he was pleased it had now been found and collected. It was, in the end, a sensible bit of judging to reinstate my bitch in the trial. She'd done nothing wrong, she'd found a wounded bird and brought it back and that is what I keep dogs for. Sometimes it can take a dog a few seconds to notice that the bird it is pointing has a blood scent.

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by cjhills » Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:08 am

Trekmoor wrote:My Brittany was eliminated from a field trial once for pointing and then moving in on and catching a live partridge. The local gamekeeper saved me from "the walk of shame" by examining the bird closely and finding pellet marks on one of it's wings. My bitch was allowed back into the trial. She'd pointed on a live but wounded bird that had been shot but not found a day or two earlier.

The keeper said he'd looked for that bird for quite a while so he was pleased it had now been found and collected. It was, in the end, a sensible bit of judging to reinstate my bitch in the trial. She'd done nothing wrong, she'd found a wounded bird and brought it back and that is what I keep dogs for. Sometimes it can take a dog a few seconds to notice that the bird it is pointing has a blood scent.

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Over here you would be done if your dog did that in atrial or test......Cj

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:26 am

To me that doesn't make much sense. If in your field trials a dog had held it's point on that lightly wounded partridge and then , because the bird could not fly or be found by the handler, was never even seen by the judges then wouldn't the dog be eliminated anyway for false pointing or unproductive pointing ? Lightly wounded partridge tend to creep about and can be very hard for the human eye to spot in thick, long grass or in a root field.....but a dogs nose can find them if the dog is doing it's job.


In Britain it is written into the rules that wounded game must be collected and dealt with as soon as possible. This rules out having people try to find a wounded bird ….if a dog can do it much faster and easier.

Experienced dogs can discern between unshot and wounded birds and if a dog held it's point on a wounded bird the dog might have it's nose or it's training called into question in a British trial.

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by polmaise » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:55 am

Perhaps the "merican way" of the handler kicking the bird up is not so bad in this situation Bill. ? :D ..
If the injured bird didn't or couldn't fly ?...........The dog would still have to be "Steady" though ..Huh. !

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:52 pm

The handler would have to find the partridge and that would be far from easy among some kinds of cover. A kick into the nearby cover will send an unshot bird into flight but probably not a wounded one. Unless the dog was allowed to investigate further that bird would maybe never be seen never mind "found." If that happened then maybe the judges would eliminate or at least mark down the dog for unproductive pointing …..poor old dog, it had done only what it had been trained to do which is to stand rigid on point while it's handler kicked around with no result.


Where flushing birds is concerned I definitely prefer "the British way." Dogs are far better at it than boots are.


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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by polmaise » Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:25 pm

Either way , the Bird is in the dogs Gob ... and hopefully edible for Us ? :lol:

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by polmaise » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:15 pm

I suppose one could debate until the birds come home (pun intended) regarding scenarios in the shooting field or events /happenings in Competition of years gone by ,with Individual dogs and experiences .
Dead birds seem invisible to any dog if they do not scent them . .............
Their eyes are only good for movement . Full stop.

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by averageguy » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:22 pm

Another vote for Air-washed. I program my puppies from the start to excel at recovering downed game, but the occasional instance where the dog cannot get scent on a downed bird happens. Sometimes the bird is laying in a low spot where the air does not seem to move its scent. Sometimes it is impossible to explain but I have certainly experienced it a few times along the way. Hunt enough and you will experience it with your dog.

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by Featherfinder » Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:56 pm

Weimdogman, I have tried marking the area where the dead bird rested and returned to it 5 minutes (real time) later. It didn't help although admittedly 5 minutes might not have been enough. ??? That's why I offered that IMO, there is another dynamic to this. Something....more.
Early in the hunt, while hunting Huns (Grey partridge) on the prairies, my friend nocked down a few birds which the dog struggled to find/retrieve. Too often, this dog was put in a situation where it was OVERHANDLED in an unproductive attempt to find said downed birds. It was becoming ethically disturbing. Furthermore, there was a fair amount of overhandling of the poor dog that had tried valiantly to find said bird(s) but failed. Then, the light went on! I asked him, "What are you shooting (shells)?"
He responded, "_____ -plated 7 1/2s." They were pretty hot rounds too.
I said, "You will have a better experience shooting 6s. You will also have less trouble recovering your birds. With patience, you will also have better table fare." (And I thought to myself, "Your dog will thank you for it too!") I made the same mistake years before. 6s helped immeasurably!
Still - as Averageguy mentioned - if you hunt wild birds enough, you will undoubtedly experience this frustrating phenomenon.....hopefully rarely!
Don't get on the dog. Deep down, he wants to find it too.

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by weimdogman » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:26 pm

FF I hunt a lot of public land which requires non toxic. I shoot 2's in steel. 4's and 5's in heavyshot/bismuth.
I never get down on my dogs about any retrieve problems.(well having 3 pups working over 1 bird, and not wanting to give it up, I may get a little excited!) I just am amazed by this invisible bird when it happens.

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by birddogger2 » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:50 pm

I think folks that have hunted any amount over dogs, will have had the same experience.

It was fairly common for me to tag a pheasant and have it fly off and die in midair. I never said I was the world's best wingshot. Most of the time it was not a big deal but if the bird fell in the middle of a standing cornfield...I knew I was in for a long search and the dogs were pretty much useless if I couldn't put them in the immediate vicinity of the fall.

I think the air washing effect, coupled with the fact that the bird hit the ground stone dead minimized the available scent. The standing corn pretty much eliminated any air movement as well. This happened far too many times to be ignored and it happened to several dogs, some of which that had cannons for noses, and I mean cannons.

The wounded bird comment reminded me of my first dog. He had an absolutely uncanny ability to detect and pounce on a wounded pheasant. If the bird was not wounded, he would stand and point until the bird flushed. He might nail the bird if it had problems getting off the ground, as some big pen raised birds can, but he was very staunch, as a rule.
On many, many occasions, He would point until I got there, then pounce on the bird. If I went hunting the day, or the afternoon following a stock day, it was not unusual for me to limit out without so much as firing a shot. That SOB had a nose and a half.

On examination, during cleaning, I almost always found that the bird had been previously wounded. I strongly suspect he could smell the blood and knew what he needed to do.

Back then I was all about a full game bag, so the means by which it got filled was less important, so I encouraged that behavior.

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:19 pm

Weimdogman, I agree. It is something we haven't quite been able to pigeon-hole. It happens yet "to us" it is a struggle. That is precisely why I offered that there is something else. Something that adds to the bird being wind-washed.
Last edited by Featherfinder on Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by polmaise » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:54 pm

weimdogman wrote:I believe if I waited awhile and then brought the dog back it would find the bird after a scent fog occurs.
Polmaise, you seem to not believe this could happen with a good dog? You have never seen it?
I am not familiar with hunting in Scotland, do you hunt wild birds?
I am sure You would find the bird ,with any dog ! Not necessarily a good a dog , just a dog.
Weim..I have had a couple of days out hunting ,and a few on wild birds ,never made me an expert on doing it several thousand times .
Best mentor I did have was my Grand father . He said ,that when a wild bird is shot in flight and Not stone cold dead, when it hits the ground it has a natural defence strategy to "Draw in its Feathers real tight " to Not release any scent such as blood or adrenaline or even Shot scent ,never mind its own Game scent !!
Never known this to be scientifically proved, but then My Grand Father knew a thing or two about hunting wild birds and all manner of Game ,so I believe him :wink:

I seen a Partridge on many occasions drop from the sky like it hit a glass pane window and land on short stubble only 50 feet away from a dog that seen it land ,and the gun that shot it ! ..Four spectators could see bird plain as a spot on your nose ! ..The dog hunted all over the place and even at one point was stopped on the whistle and it was standing over the bird ! ....The handler walked up and picked the bird . It was just alive and eyes open . Best etiquette to dispatch shot game as quickly and ethically as possible :wink:

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by Featherfinder » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:02 pm

Polmaise - with the utmost respect for your Grandfather - (he sounds like someone I would have loved to hunt with!) perhaps cripples can do as he alluded but dead birds can't draw in feathers nor withhold bleeding. And yet, I witnessed exactly what you described with dead birds on more than one occasion. As in your situation, my own dog was standing on a dead woodcock it had searched for?!?!? I think we agree that occasionally there is another aspect in the challenge of finding dead birds. There are times when a dog finds dead birds even though my mark and his nose were significantly diverse! As in, "I saw that bird fall right by that rock! Why is he way down that valley?" Then the dog shows up with the dead bird in his mouth!?!
It's those times when you can actually see the dead bird and yet the dog is running ragged, still searching that is....baffling?!? That is why I suggested that there is some other element that we are not 100% clear on. It's also why I offered that dead birds might not give scent (perhaps depending on how/where they were shot, what organs were hit, how they expired, etc. etc.) along with being wind-washed explains this phenomenon.
I have had my dogs find cripples and go on point - not retrieve immediately - many times. These birds obviously still gave off scent, were still breathing, still had a pulse. With dead the birds we are defining (dead one's the dog is standing on but can't scent), you have none of the three.
Here's an interesting one: A good friend asked if he could use my setter to take his grandson hunting on a game farm. I agreed to it.
They shot a chukar which my friend had marked. He tapped my setter to make the retrieve but the dog came back without the bird. ???
So, he walked over to where he saw it fall. When he got there, he found a shallow pond. He took a couple of steps into the water then noticed my dog in the water about 10 yards away. He said, "Zeus was looking down at the water in a strange fashion, stuck his head right under the water then came up with the chukar! If I hadn't seen it myself..." (I've seen ducks grab onto vegetation under water but chukars...???)
The point is, it's funny what they can and cannot find but trust me, there is a logical reason. At least, logical to them. :|

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by polmaise » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:31 pm

Featherfinder wrote:Polmaise - with the utmost respect for your Grandfather - (he sounds like someone I would have loved to hunt with!) perhaps cripples can do as he alluded but dead birds can't draw in feathers nor withhold bleeding. And yet, I witnessed exactly what you described with dead birds on more than one occasion. As in your situation, my own dog was standing on a dead woodcock it had searched for?!?!? I think we agree that occasionally there is another aspect in the challenge of finding dead birds. There are times when a dog finds dead birds even though my mark and his nose were significantly diverse! As in, "I saw that bird fall right by that rock! Why is he way down that valley?" Then the dog shows up with the dead bird in his mouth!?!
It's those times when you can actually see the dead bird and yet the dog is running ragged, still searching that is....baffling?!? That is why I suggested that there is some other element that we are not 100% clear on. It's also why I offered that dead birds might not give scent (perhaps depending on how/where they were shot, what organs were hit, how they expired, etc. etc.) along with being wind-washed explains this phenomenon.
I have had my dogs find cripples and go on point - not retrieve immediately - many times. These birds obviously still gave off scent, were still breathing, still had a pulse. With dead the birds we are defining (dead one's the dog is standing on but can't scent), you have none of the three.
Here's an interesting one: A good friend asked if he could use my setter to take his grandson hunting on a game farm. I agreed to it.
They shot a chukar which my friend had marked. He tapped my setter to make the retrieve but the dog came back without the bird. ???
So, he walked over to where he saw it fall. When he got there, he found a shallow pond. He took a couple of steps into the water then noticed my dog in the water about 10 yards away. He said, "Zeus was looking down at the water in a strange fashion, stuck his head right under the water then came up with the chukar! If I hadn't seen it myself..." (I've seen ducks grab onto vegetation under water but chukars...???)[/b


The point is, it's funny what they can and cannot find but trust me, there is a logical reason. At least, logical to them. :|

Yea, well, back in the days ....Of 4th Dec 2019 in this thread .. :lol:

"You certainly cant teach experience.
On a Shoot day , There was a crowd of Guns and folk with their dogs all searching a small area as I approached .
"What you looking for "? ..There was x11 dogs all hunting this area with their handlers .
"One of the guns said this Rooster landed right here ,stone dead "
...
There was an upturned Tree stump where the roots were torn up on last years Fall , it was full of water .
I sent my Spaniel to hunt the same area that the other dogs had been hunting ...She stopped at the flooded Tree stump , stuck her head under the water and pulled out the bird .
I reckon , it was Invisible to her ."

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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:40 am

For me this is one of the inexplicable things that make hunting and dog work interesting. Good , experienced dogs that love to retrieve will not deliberately fail to retrieve. About 30 years ago I used to correspond with the author of a couple of gundog training books (Keith Erlandson.) Both of us used to write articles for a countrysports magazine and Keith noticed that one of my articles referred to what I called "Dead scent areas."

Keith was a very experienced gundog man and had won retriever trials and pointer/setter trials and many spaniel trials. His spaniel breeding for both springers and cockers runs in the pedigrees of almost all of today's working spaniels. When I was a young man he was the man I wanted to emulate. He read my article then sent me a letter about it …. I thought he was going to call my theory a nonsense …...but he had the same theory !

I had said that perhaps it was possible that a dead bird that no dog could find was unfindable not because of the bird but because of where it had fallen.... a dead scent area. I have seen good dogs fail to find birds that had fallen on carpets of leaves inside woods, birds that had fallen on plough, birds that had fallen on meadowland and on stubble. I had been put out of a field trial on such a bird ….a grouse that had fallen into heather.

When the judges brought in a second dog to make the "eyewipe" on what looked like a very easy bird a spectator , Danny Mc Kenzie, (breeder of the "Staxigo" retrievers and spaniels ) remarked to me that no dog would find that bird …. he had the same "dead scent area" theory ! No dog ever did find that grouse yet when the judges walked into the fall area they picked it instantly by hand.

I think that some small areas of ground, on some days, just do not allow scent to escape upwards or outwards.....but I have no idea why !!!


Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !

cjhills
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Re: how is that deadbirds sometimes seem invisible

Post by cjhills » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:50 am

Along the same line. When I was a kid I remember reading an article in a outdoor magazine about a East wind causing scenting issues for dogs. I don't know. My coon hunting partners thought it was joke.....Cj

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