sending dog for training

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Kovan
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sending dog for training

Post by Kovan » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:15 pm

I plan to bring my lab to some class training and I was wondering what is the advantage and disadvantage of sending there dog out for training (one month)? Is it worth the time and money?

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Steve007 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:59 pm

What do you mean "bring my lab to some class training"? Are you and he going together to work under instruction (good) or are you shipping him off for a month? (probably not so good.) More information will yield better answers.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Kovan » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:29 pm

Steve007 wrote:What do you mean "bring my lab to some class training"? Are you and he going together to work under instruction (good) or are you shipping him off for a month? (probably not so good.) More information will yield better answers.
Ill rephrase that. What is the advantages and disadvantages of sending your dog away for training? as far as waterfowl/on land hunting goes. Some or most trainers offer that option or yourself as the owner can go in together for sessions they offer. Is it a good idea to send your dog away? Or not a good idea? If it is not a good idea to send your dog away for training, why does trainers offer that option?

I live in the cities and i work full time. as of now when im off work the day gets dark already. I have done some basic training with my boy and he is not gun shy. But working with someone who is a trainer can help a lot.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Garrison » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:39 pm

If the dog is bred for the work and it goes away to a reputable trainer, he or she will get much more out of the dog then you as a novice will, due to lack of knowledge and time constraints. A good trainer is going to train you as well. If you want a finished dog in your current situation, that is your best bet. I am getting a feeling that you are under the impression that this can be done on weekends or over a month. Dependent upon your expectations and your dogs ability, this could take many, many months.

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Last edited by Garrison on Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Dakotazeb » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:42 pm

There are no disadvantages of sending your dog off to a trainer whether it's one month or 3 months provided you get the right trainer. And it can be money well spent. I think it's harder for us owners to have the dog gone than it is on the dog. I've sent dogs off for 2 months at a time and when they come home it's as if they were never gone. If you are not experienced at training your own dog or do not have time time then let a professional do it. You might very well spend $700 per month or more but that price to have a well trained hunting dog is worth every penny. That dog is going to be your hunting buddy for 10 years or more. Spread that training cost out over 10-12 years and it's nothing compared to the other costs like food, vet bills, etc.
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Kovan » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:04 pm

thank you guys for the input. I am a new dog owner and i just want the best for my dog and for myself I would prefer to train him myself but as a new owner i have no knowledge of training a hunting dog, yes i can go off of videos and guides but the question i always have is, am I doing this right? and most of all consistent.. I just want to know what is your experience in sending off your dogs to train. I do not expect fast results, still got quite a ways till bird season for us.

I would definitely prefer to be there with a professional trainer to help train me to train my boy and i guess thats the real question, what is the difference if i was there to train him with a trainer vs just a trainer training my boy?

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Dakotazeb » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:08 pm

Where are you located?
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Kovan » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:10 pm

Also yes sending my dog away is very hard that is why i want to know what are your thoughts. and like i said i rather do the work with him but having no knowledge of training him to hunt with me gets hard at times cause there will be to many questions.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Kovan » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:12 pm

Dakotazeb wrote:Where are you located?
I am from milwaukee wisconsin

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by gundogguy » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:01 am

Kovan wrote:Also yes sending my dog away is very hard that is why i want to know what are your thoughts. and like i said i rather do the work with him but having no knowledge of training him to hunt with me gets hard at times cause there will be to many questions.
The fact that you admit you have know idea how to answers your own question. Now send the dog off for training. Now while he is gone to the trainers you should attend the training classes without a dog just observe and soak it in. Now is this dog going to be used as a nonslip retriever or a jack of trades type dog?. You are the only that can make this decision If it is going to used as a non slip retriever the length of time at the trainers will be longer in duration.
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by shags » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:17 am

Your best bet is to ask the trainer what he expects to get out of the dog in a month, then decide.

Some things like basic obedience can be done at home. Other things like complicated retrieves or birdwork might work out better at a trainer's. One month isn't much time. I'd be wary of a trainer who promised a finished, championship quality dog in a month, but I'd expect a guy to say that he'd work on X,Y, and Z with likely good outcomes. You can decide what's most important to you, and ask the trainer whether it's doable in that month etc.

Over the course of decades, I've used a few trainers who are local to me. Each of them encouraged me to visit and see my dog's progress, then after the dog was doing well for them, to work the dog myself under their supervision. That way, we ensured that "my way" and "his way" meshed for the dog. I have pointing dogs, so I left almost all the birdwork to the trainers, but did things like basic manners (heel, wait, whoa) myself. Some dogs came along quickly, and others needed several months of work almost every day.

As far as the dogs going off to Bird Dog U. for months at a time, it had no effect whatsoever on them settling back into life at home. They were back on the sofa within seconds of coming in the door :)

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Kovan » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:51 am

gundogguy wrote:
Kovan wrote:Also yes sending my dog away is very hard that is why i want to know what are your thoughts. and like i said i rather do the work with him but having no knowledge of training him to hunt with me gets hard at times cause there will be to many questions.
The fact that you admit you have know idea how to answers your own question. Now send the dog off for training. Now while he is gone to the trainers you should attend the training classes without a dog just observe and soak it in. Now is this dog going to be used as a nonslip retriever or a jack of trades type dog?. You are the only that can make this decision If it is going to used as a non slip retriever the length of time at the trainers will be longer in duration.
Best of luck
Hal
I don't know what nonslip retriever means or the trade type means. I do know there are different type of ways to train your dog to do whatever game you wish to hunt for but I do not know the name or word for it :D it is one of those "Can I get the number one meal" If I am right, according to my research I want a non slip retriever, that was my first expectation when I decided to pick up my boy. Mainly for waterfowl and as far as upland, I don't expect much from him, I would like to stick to one thing at a time because I am also learning as he is being trained

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Kovan » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:08 am

shags wrote:Your best bet is to ask the trainer what he expects to get out of the dog in a month, then decide.

Some things like basic obedience can be done at home. Other things like complicated retrieves or birdwork might work out better at a trainer's. One month isn't much time. I'd be wary of a trainer who promised a finished, championship quality dog in a month, but I'd expect a guy to say that he'd work on X,Y, and Z with likely good outcomes. You can decide what's most important to you, and ask the trainer whether it's doable in that month etc.

Over the course of decades, I've used a few trainers who are local to me. Each of them encouraged me to visit and see my dog's progress, then after the dog was doing well for them, to work the dog myself under their supervision. That way, we ensured that "my way" and "his way" meshed for the dog. I have pointing dogs, so I left almost all the birdwork to the trainers, but did things like basic manners (heel, wait, whoa) myself. Some dogs came along quickly, and others needed several months of work almost every day.

As far as the dogs going off to Bird Dog U. for months at a time, it had no effect whatsoever on them settling back into life at home. They were back on the sofa within seconds of coming in the door :)
Thank you and that is a Great advice. I would never thought about what are the expectation within a month, for paying 650-750 a month for training I would expect some kind of progress. I guess its about getting to know the trainer and trusting him/her to help train my dog. If I do decide to send my dog off for training I will most likely do visits as often as I can, I think my girlfriend would cry her butt off everyday if she don't get to see him. She is already saying I am in sane...

if you were to send your dog out for training, what time of the year or when do you think is the best month/time to send him or her out off to a trainer? I understand everyone has a different timeline but I just want to get an idea

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by shags » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:43 am

Ask the trainer about when is best to take the dog. Much will depend on what you want done and the trainer's facilities.

Sometimes trainers have to more or less shut down the outdoor work in the dead of winter; but some might be able to use a building for some basic work. The guy near me sends home his dogs in May, and uses the summer to maintain the property, make hay, and that sort of thing, and takes dogs back in mid August. Everyone has their own preference.

You might want to see if you can go to the trainer's place and kind of interview him. Watch how he interacts with the dogs, and observe how the dogs respond to him. Are the dogs happy and willing, are they frightened and cowed, are they wild and undisciplined?

As far as progress, every dog is different. Some are difficult boneheads that require a ton of repetition and constant schooling. Others are very biddable and have lots of natural ability, and only need to be shown what's expected/not acceptable omce or twice. A lot also depends on the trainer's ability; some people have a gift for working dogs, others are pretty clueless.

The hard part for newbies like you, is that you don't have a basis for comparison and little to no BS meter. That isn't your fault, it's just how it is when you don't have experience or exposure to trainers. So you have to learn to ask questions and get answers that make sense - not just answers that make you feel good. I've known trainers who take dogs and make very little progress with most of their dogs, and give all sorts of excuses to the owners, usually blaming circumstances or other things out of their control. The honest trainers will tell you that they're having trouble with this or that, what they've done and what they plan to change for better results. The honest guys will tell you how your dog is doing, good or bad, and if bad, will tell you whether they think they can progress or not giving you the option to call it quits or not.

I don't know about retriever training, but with pointy dogs a month is pretty much just a start in training. IME 2-4 months is reasonable.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:50 am

If you send your dog off for a month or two's training with a pro then the dog may know how to do a few things …..but you will not.
Personally I would try to find a good trainer who lives fairly near to you and ask him/her for 1 - 2 - 1 lessons. It would cost you more in fuel but that would be offset by the dog not being boarded by the trainer .....and you could ask questions as you go.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Steve007 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:05 am

Trekmoor wrote:If you send your dog off for a month or two's training with a pro then the dog may know how to do a few things …..but you will not.
Personally I would try to find a good trainer who lives fairly near to you and ask him/her for 1 - 2 - 1 lessons. It would cost you more in fuel but that would be offset by the dog not being boarded by the trainer .....and you could ask questions as you go.

Bill T.
This is very good advice. You can train the dog yourself with reading to get a foundation of knowledge, weekly lessons and daily practice. You're just intimidated by learning a new complex skill, but it is absolutely achievable by you. Weekly lessons;daily practice,short sessions.

A month is not a lot and your dog WILL revert to non-training if you're not able to keep up. Start looking around;find a trainer;talk on the phone ;go visit;get references.

You can do this with self-discipline and good sense,and you and your dog will be much better off.
Last edited by Steve007 on Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Dakotazeb » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:00 pm

The trainer should train you as well as the dog. I think we actually need more training. :) I have my Brittany with a trainer here in Arizona where I winter. He has a different approach that he says is not done by other trainers. He said, "Once she learns what I'm teaching her and I teach you, you won't ever need me again. Remember, I train people to train their dogs."
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Kovan » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:44 pm

Again thank you all for the help. I will be looking into some of the local trainers and speak to them about what can help me and my dog. also will make visits to there training sessions.

I would like to do the training my myself but due to the lack of knowledge I do not have confidence of training my dog on my own. I will need to be there to be trained. The other thing that bothers me is the place/environment. I do not have that kind of place near where I live so I will have to bring him somewhere with less distractions.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Timewise65 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:42 pm

All good stuff above....

I have owned multiple Golden Retrievers over the years. Like you, when I started, I had no idea how to train the dog for hunting waterfowl or upland game.. or what to expect from using a trainer. After over 25years I have gained the knowledge as to how to train a retriever and how to find a good field dog trainer. This is a journey that has no end. But let me give you a very brief outline of what I would expect...understand that we all have different experiences and many may add or disagree, but this is my experience as a general guide.

Obedience Training - Should start around 9-12 weeks. Includes the commands, sit, here (or come), down (lay down), stay, heel, drop, leave it...this training is usually done by the owners at home, but can be done in a local puppy obedience class. I preferred the class as the dog got some socialization to other people and other dogs while very young (do not start a class until your puppy has had all the initial shots, ask your vet before going) This training can be done in 4-6 weeks, depending on how you do it, if you do it yourself, train only a few minutes (15-20 minutes) per day and keep it fun. Two good CD's of training a retriever pup are...'Training a Retriever Puppy with Bill Hillmann and/or 'Sound Beginnings' Retriever training with Jackie Mertens...both are good starters that will get you and your pup off to a great start.


Training by a good professional trainer can be very successful, but be advised there are many poor trainers so be sure to get and check references and shy away from anyone you do not feel good about. Also, if a trainer starts making promises and time commitments and he has not ask you to bring the pup over so he/she can 'access' the dog, then be wary of that trainer. A good trainer will do this to see if the pup is mature enough yet for field training. Most dogs are ok by 6 months of age, but some will take another month or two, before they can be trained....

In a month a good trainer can reinforce your obedience training and teach the dog to Mark a fallen bird, run in a line to that bird, and retrieve it to hand, setting at heel! That is the first step to getting a finished retriever. Depending on the dog this can usually be done in 1 month, but some dogs need a little more time...no more than 2 weeks. With this level of training a dog can pass an AKC or UKC Hunt test at the Junior or Started level. This is something I love to do with my young dogs, as it helped me learn to work them on game, and you get lots of good advise from other, more experienced people running their dogs. Search for Retriever Hunt Tests to find more you will have local Hunt Tests run in you state every Spring and Fall. AKC, American Kennel Club and UKC United Kennel Club are the two organization that I use for hunt testing...it is all done in fun and does not cost a lot. A dog at this level is a good hunting companion, as long as you keep up with the training so that the dog maintains a 100% proficiency on the training it has received. If you lose control of the dog, it is dangerous for the dog and the handler, so train them continuously.


Further training is required to get a retriever to a finished gun dog. The primary added training focuses on more complex retrieves over longer distances. The pup also learns to follow your whistle commands and hand commands to search and find a downed bird that the dog did not see fall. This is called a "Blind Retrieve" and it is amazing to watch a handler send a dog out to retrieve a bird, that was placed in cover our 100yds. before the dog came to the line to hunt. This skill needs to be in place if you want the dog to run at a Senior or Master Level in Hunt Tests. and is a critical skill for a retirever to have if you are hunting waterfowl, as sooner or later you will shoot a duck or goose that falls where the dog is not looking. If it is in deep water, you cannot get the bird, but with your handling skills together, the pup can get it. The bad new is that most professional trainers will take another 8-10 months to finish the dog at this level. That is a ton of training costs, but this makes the dog a fully trained retriever and brings out the very best in the pup.


Further training for upland hunting can be done by you, if your dog is completely trained at the Junior level (meaning you have good control of the dog so you can stop it if it wants to chase a deer or rabbit), much of the upland hunting is nose and instint, with your training the dog will learn to hunt with time in the field.


That is a quick start 2 cent view from 10,000 feet...get to reading and looking at CD's, you have to learn alot also....

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by averageguy » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:28 pm

Great Post TimeWise 65.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Kovan » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:23 pm

Timewise65 wrote:All good stuff above....

I have owned multiple Golden Retrievers over the years. Like you, when I started, I had no idea how to train the dog for hunting waterfowl or upland game.. or what to expect from using a trainer. After over 25years I have gained the knowledge as to how to train a retriever and how to find a good field dog trainer. This is a journey that has no end. But let me give you a very brief outline of what I would expect...understand that we all have different experiences and many may add or disagree, but this is my experience as a general guide.

Obedience Training - Should start around 9-12 weeks. Includes the commands, sit, here (or come), down (lay down), stay, heel, drop, leave it...this training is usually done by the owners at home, but can be done in a local puppy obedience class. I preferred the class as the dog got some socialization to other people and other dogs while very young (do not start a class until your puppy has had all the initial shots, ask your vet before going) This training can be done in 4-6 weeks, depending on how you do it, if you do it yourself, train only a few minutes (15-20 minutes) per day and keep it fun. Two good CD's of training a retriever pup are...'Training a Retriever Puppy with Bill Hillmann and/or 'Sound Beginnings' Retriever training with Jackie Mertens...both are good starters that will get you and your pup off to a great start.


Training by a good professional trainer can be very successful, but be advised there are many poor trainers so be sure to get and check references and shy away from anyone you do not feel good about. Also, if a trainer starts making promises and time commitments and he has not ask you to bring the pup over so he/she can 'access' the dog, then be wary of that trainer. A good trainer will do this to see if the pup is mature enough yet for field training. Most dogs are ok by 6 months of age, but some will take another month or two, before they can be trained....

In a month a good trainer can reinforce your obedience training and teach the dog to Mark a fallen bird, run in a line to that bird, and retrieve it to hand, setting at heel! That is the first step to getting a finished retriever. Depending on the dog this can usually be done in 1 month, but some dogs need a little more time...no more than 2 weeks. With this level of training a dog can pass an AKC or UKC Hunt test at the Junior or Started level. This is something I love to do with my young dogs, as it helped me learn to work them on game, and you get lots of good advise from other, more experienced people running their dogs. Search for Retriever Hunt Tests to find more you will have local Hunt Tests run in you state every Spring and Fall. AKC, American Kennel Club and UKC United Kennel Club are the two organization that I use for hunt testing...it is all done in fun and does not cost a lot. A dog at this level is a good hunting companion, as long as you keep up with the training so that the dog maintains a 100% proficiency on the training it has received. If you lose control of the dog, it is dangerous for the dog and the handler, so train them continuously.


Further training is required to get a retriever to a finished gun dog. The primary added training focuses on more complex retrieves over longer distances. The pup also learns to follow your whistle commands and hand commands to search and find a downed bird that the dog did not see fall. This is called a "Blind Retrieve" and it is amazing to watch a handler send a dog out to retrieve a bird, that was placed in cover our 100yds. before the dog came to the line to hunt. This skill needs to be in place if you want the dog to run at a Senior or Master Level in Hunt Tests. and is a critical skill for a retirever to have if you are hunting waterfowl, as sooner or later you will shoot a duck or goose that falls where the dog is not looking. If it is in deep water, you cannot get the bird, but with your handling skills together, the pup can get it. The bad new is that most professional trainers will take another 8-10 months to finish the dog at this level. That is a ton of training costs, but this makes the dog a fully trained retriever and brings out the very best in the pup.


Further training for upland hunting can be done by you, if your dog is completely trained at the Junior level (meaning you have good control of the dog so you can stop it if it wants to chase a deer or rabbit), much of the upland hunting is nose and instint, with your training the dog will learn to hunt with time in the field.


That is a quick start 2 cent view from 10,000 feet...get to reading and looking at CD's, you have to learn alot also....

thanks for the tips and advice,

So far the training i have done with him is all of the basic obedience commands. sit/down/here/heel/drop/stay/give, i do this almost everyday. the only command he still has a issue with is heel and drop it/give. when he heels he heels a bit of a distance from me and I am trying to correct that as much as i can, it is almost like he want to sit to look towards me. as far as drop it or give he is getting better now just not as consistent.

What i do everyday with him is the basic obedience for 5-7 minutes and as he listens to me i will give him treats now and then now as he got older i kind of slow down on the treats. Then we usually will go outside to my yard if the day is not to cold or wet to finish off his training. I made a stand that is about a foot high, which i use for him to stay on "place". Here is where i do the retrieving with him. I use a white bump for him to retrieve, He does look and sometimes dosent when i say "mark" he will retrieve it and run back up to the stand with no problem. but at times he will just take off and sometimes he will stay till the bumper hits the ground and wait for my command. Sometimes he will give the bumper to me and sometimes he wont but with a treat in my hand it works all the time.

The season before I have taken him out to do mourning doves, pheasant, and waterfowl. He is not gun shy at all. As we roam the fields he does come to me when i call for him. He does look out for me when he doesnt see me he will stop and listen to my voice then come towards my voice. I have also trained him with my whistle and he does respond to my whistle just not always.

Opening duck season from this previous season was a great opener for us. though he did not know how to retrieve the ducks (we were on land). He knew how to find them but didnt retrieve. At the time he was 7 months old

First couple of pheasant hunts, he knew the scent but didnt engage or flush the birds out. he would stand and look at a direction. As i walk over to where he is staring at...sure enough a pheasant will fly off.

These are the things that I have no knowledge where to go from. How do i correct this? what can I do to help myself to train him in these type of situations?

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by polmaise » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:52 pm

Kovan wrote: So far the training i have done with him is all of the basic obedience commands. sit/down/here/heel/drop/stay/give, i do this almost everyday. the only command he still has a issue with is heel and drop it/give. when he heels he heels a bit of a distance from me and I am trying to correct that as much as i can, it is almost like he want to sit to look towards me. as far as drop it or give he is getting better now just not as consistent.
For a retriever of any breed ,Heel work is the corner stone of all retrieving !
Obedience Heel work is for the ring .
How else would you do Lining and casting ,if the retriever was looking at You ,rather than the Target ?
Most ,would separate the delivery from the retrieve . Some pros even call it back chaining . No use trying to fix multiple issues in a complete scenario said someone Fido.
....
Food for thought .
.......
Perhaps handling a Trained dog before one attempts to Train an untrained one gives one an idea of what one would like to have one ? .. I say this sincerely as I have done this often and it does give a perspective . The dog only does what it has been Trained to do ... 8) :wink:

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Timewise65 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:37 am

Looks like you have been doing well with your pup and that the pup has some good instincts! On my first pup, I too found the pup knew more than I did and would do things that worked before I could figure out what she was doing....so just keep trying what seem to work for you and the pup. Below I will make a few comments and at the end I will suggest a training program that will give you all the details you need to completely train a Retriever, it takes time and effort, but if you are truly committed, you can make it happen... :mrgreen:


thanks for the tips and advice,

So far the training i have done with him is all of the basic obedience commands. sit/down/here/heel/drop/stay/give, i do this almost everyday. the only command he still has a issue with is heel and drop it/give. when he heels he heels a bit of a distance from me and I am trying to correct that as much as i can, it is almost like he want to sit to look towards me. as far as drop it or give he is getting better now just not as consistent.

Heel is one of the hardest to get done, but sure to include walking and turning at different speeds in this training. It just takes time...it is also key to future success, so do not go further, until your pup has it down. For all training I use a pinch collar, it quickly helps get the dogs focus on you and with heel, it really keeps the pup in position with his shoulder lined up at your knee. These collars do not cut or harm in anyway, the prongs are smooth so that they do no harm. What they do, is when you lightly jerk the lead, attached to the collar, the dog hears a sound and feels a pinch around the neck. You can get one at most pet stores, put one around your forearm and jerk it and you will feel that it does no harm, just a light pinch. My favorite one has no prongs around the throat area and is covered so know one can see it is a pronged collar. You can order them at www.lolalimited.net, the call them "Secret Power Training Collar"! This also prepares your pup for wearing an E-collar, ,which I consider mandatory when hunting with a dog in the field, because sooner or later your pup will chase a deer or other animal into the forest...with an E-collar, you can stop and recall the dog without risk. Another time they are important is if your dog is running towards a barbwire fence or highway, the ecollar will stop the dog much faster than a whistle command or verbal call. Garmin sells ecollars that I prefer. Do not use an ecollar on your dog unless you have conditioned your dog to the ecollar, you can get instructions from any pro or from where you buy the collar.

What i do everyday with him is the basic obedience for 5-7 minutes and as he listens to me i will give him treats now and then now as he got older i kind of slow down on the treats. Then we usually will go outside to my yard if the day is not to cold or wet to finish off his training. I made a stand that is about a foot high, which i use for him to stay on "place". Here is where i do the retrieving with him. I use a white bump for him to retrieve, He does look and sometimes dosent when i say "mark" he will retrieve it and run back up to the stand with no problem. but at times he will just take off and sometimes he will stay till the bumper hits the ground and wait for my command. Sometimes he will give the bumper to me and sometimes he wont but with a treat in my hand it works all the time.


This is all pretty good as you are doing it. I never use a 'Mark' command as most all retrievers will mark something without being told. If you are using a 'place' for the dog to work to and from, you should stand so that when he is on the 'place' he is at heel with you. Your dog should only be taught to heel on one side right or left. You should train him to heel on your left side if you shoot a gun with on right side. Left if left side. So stand next to the 'place' to teach the dog to return to that spot, in time the place will be wherever you are standing. When you throw a bumper, while standing next to the dog, hold his collar (preferably, pinch collar) and do not release him until he is setting and holding on his own. If he pulls and whines, pull him of his place and walk in a small circle backwards, coming back to the place at heel. Do this until he settles as many times as necessary. As soon as he is settled and looking at the bumper, learn to watch his head at all times, so you can tell when he is locked on the bumper. Then release him using his call name (call name is a short, one syllable word that usually is tied to his name, eg. Maddie=dee, Spirit=boo, etc.) This call name will be used in the field anytime you want the dogs attention or to 'release' him for a retrieve. When shooting a duck, if the dog releases without being sent, the dog will be at risk. We call this a 'break'! Any added shots to kill a downed bird will put the dog at risk. Both of being hit by accident or the mussel blast will in time cause your pup to lose its hearing. This initial training of teaching the pup to only go when sent, is critical to the dogs health and overall control.


The season before I have taken him out to do mourning doves, pheasant, and waterfowl. He is not gun shy at all. As we roam the fields he does come to me when i call for him. He does look out for me when he doesnt see me he will stop and listen to my voice then come towards my voice. I have also trained him with my whistle and he does respond to my whistle just not always.

Keep whistle training him, tweet, tweet, tweet, for come back and one tweet to sit! In time he will learn to sit anytime you hit the one tweet! You train this by using a "sit" followed by a tweet command at all times, even now as you train him to sit. Once he has the sit (followed by a tweet) when next to you 100% then you can start creating distance and then giving the "sit, tweet" command and gradually moving away and doing it, all in baby steps....in time the pup will drop his butt to the ground anytime he hears the tweet!


Opening duck season from this previous season was a great opener for us. though he did not know how to retrieve the ducks (we were on land). He knew how to find them but didnt retrieve. At the time he was 7 months old

This is a very young age to have him out and expecting him to retrieve. Until he is consistently marking and retrieving in the yard, I would not expose him to a hunting situation, as he will learn bad habits that you will then have to break him of. Don't rush him, although at 7 months he can run and play, mentally he is only like 3-4 years old. Would you take a 3-4 year old kid out hunting with you....let him mature....

First couple of pheasant hunts, he knew the scent but didnt engage or flush the birds out. he would stand and look at a direction. As i walk over to where he is staring at...sure enough a pheasant will fly off.


IBID above

These are the things that I have no knowledge where to go from. How do i correct this? what can I do to help myself to train him in these type of situations?[/quote]

You are doing a lot right, so don't over worry about this. Dogs are smart and flexable, he will teach you....below is a good Retriever Training Program that covers it all! It is my favorite and I got the notebook version, although I think it comes in DVD. Many other good programs are out their, but I have no experience with them. This covers a step by step training program and then gives you access to websites where you can get help when needed. If you have the heart and time to do this, this will take you down a good road...Good Luck


"Smartworks for Retrievers, Volume one, Basics and Transition" by Evan Graham...In time you may want to go on to volume two, but this one will get you hunting with a well trained dog!

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Kovan
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Kovan » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:15 am

Timewise65 wrote:Looks like you have been doing well with your pup and that the pup has some good instincts! On my first pup, I too found the pup knew more than I did and would do things that worked before I could figure out what she was doing....so just keep trying what seem to work for you and the pup. Below I will make a few comments and at the end I will suggest a training program that will give you all the details you need to completely train a Retriever, it takes time and effort, but if you are truly committed, you can make it happen... :mrgreen:


thanks for the tips and advice,

So far the training i have done with him is all of the basic obedience commands. sit/down/here/heel/drop/stay/give, i do this almost everyday. the only command he still has a issue with is heel and drop it/give. when he heels he heels a bit of a distance from me and I am trying to correct that as much as i can, it is almost like he want to sit to look towards me. as far as drop it or give he is getting better now just not as consistent.

Heel is one of the hardest to get done, but sure to include walking and turning at different speeds in this training. It just takes time...it is also key to future success, so do not go further, until your pup has it down. For all training I use a pinch collar, it quickly helps get the dogs focus on you and with heel, it really keeps the pup in position with his shoulder lined up at your knee. These collars do not cut or harm in anyway, the prongs are smooth so that they do no harm. What they do, is when you lightly jerk the lead, attached to the collar, the dog hears a sound and feels a pinch around the neck. You can get one at most pet stores, put one around your forearm and jerk it and you will feel that it does no harm, just a light pinch. My favorite one has no prongs around the throat area and is covered so know one can see it is a pronged collar. You can order them at http://www.lolalimited.net, the call them "Secret Power Training Collar"! This also prepares your pup for wearing an E-collar, ,which I consider mandatory when hunting with a dog in the field, because sooner or later your pup will chase a deer or other animal into the forest...with an E-collar, you can stop and recall the dog without risk. Another time they are important is if your dog is running towards a barbwire fence or highway, the ecollar will stop the dog much faster than a whistle command or verbal call. Garmin sells ecollars that I prefer. Do not use an ecollar on your dog unless you have conditioned your dog to the ecollar, you can get instructions from any pro or from where you buy the collar.

What i do everyday with him is the basic obedience for 5-7 minutes and as he listens to me i will give him treats now and then now as he got older i kind of slow down on the treats. Then we usually will go outside to my yard if the day is not to cold or wet to finish off his training. I made a stand that is about a foot high, which i use for him to stay on "place". Here is where i do the retrieving with him. I use a white bump for him to retrieve, He does look and sometimes dosent when i say "mark" he will retrieve it and run back up to the stand with no problem. but at times he will just take off and sometimes he will stay till the bumper hits the ground and wait for my command. Sometimes he will give the bumper to me and sometimes he wont but with a treat in my hand it works all the time.


This is all pretty good as you are doing it. I never use a 'Mark' command as most all retrievers will mark something without being told. If you are using a 'place' for the dog to work to and from, you should stand so that when he is on the 'place' he is at heel with you. Your dog should only be taught to heel on one side right or left. You should train him to heel on your left side if you shoot a gun with on right side. Left if left side. So stand next to the 'place' to teach the dog to return to that spot, in time the place will be wherever you are standing. When you throw a bumper, while standing next to the dog, hold his collar (preferably, pinch collar) and do not release him until he is setting and holding on his own. If he pulls and whines, pull him of his place and walk in a small circle backwards, coming back to the place at heel. Do this until he settles as many times as necessary. As soon as he is settled and looking at the bumper, learn to watch his head at all times, so you can tell when he is locked on the bumper. Then release him using his call name (call name is a short, one syllable word that usually is tied to his name, eg. Maddie=dee, Spirit=boo, etc.) This call name will be used in the field anytime you want the dogs attention or to 'release' him for a retrieve. When shooting a duck, if the dog releases without being sent, the dog will be at risk. We call this a 'break'! Any added shots to kill a downed bird will put the dog at risk. Both of being hit by accident or the mussel blast will in time cause your pup to lose its hearing. This initial training of teaching the pup to only go when sent, is critical to the dogs health and overall control.


The season before I have taken him out to do mourning doves, pheasant, and waterfowl. He is not gun shy at all. As we roam the fields he does come to me when i call for him. He does look out for me when he doesnt see me he will stop and listen to my voice then come towards my voice. I have also trained him with my whistle and he does respond to my whistle just not always.

Keep whistle training him, tweet, tweet, tweet, for come back and one tweet to sit! In time he will learn to sit anytime you hit the one tweet! You train this by using a "sit" followed by a tweet command at all times, even now as you train him to sit. Once he has the sit (followed by a tweet) when next to you 100% then you can start creating distance and then giving the "sit, tweet" command and gradually moving away and doing it, all in baby steps....in time the pup will drop his butt to the ground anytime he hears the tweet!


Opening duck season from this previous season was a great opener for us. though he did not know how to retrieve the ducks (we were on land). He knew how to find them but didnt retrieve. At the time he was 7 months old

This is a very young age to have him out and expecting him to retrieve. Until he is consistently marking and retrieving in the yard, I would not expose him to a hunting situation, as he will learn bad habits that you will then have to break him of. Don't rush him, although at 7 months he can run and play, mentally he is only like 3-4 years old. Would you take a 3-4 year old kid out hunting with you....let him mature....

First couple of pheasant hunts, he knew the scent but didnt engage or flush the birds out. he would stand and look at a direction. As i walk over to where he is staring at...sure enough a pheasant will fly off.


IBID above

These are the things that I have no knowledge where to go from. How do i correct this? what can I do to help myself to train him in these type of situations?
You are doing a lot right, so don't over worry about this. Dogs are smart and flexable, he will teach you....below is a good Retriever Training Program that covers it all! It is my favorite and I got the notebook version, although I think it comes in DVD. Many other good programs are out their, but I have no experience with them. This covers a step by step training program and then gives you access to websites where you can get help when needed. If you have the heart and time to do this, this will take you down a good road...Good Luck


"Smartworks for Retrievers, Volume one, Basics and Transition" by Evan Graham...In time you may want to go on to volume two, but this one will get you hunting with a well trained dog!
[/quote]




Thank you for your honest words. I'm glad I am doing it right, I do see some great progress in my lab, I guess that is what keeps my drive because I enjoy it and love him very much. I will take your advice and implement that towards our daily trainings. I just don't have a guide to tell me whether Im doing it right or wrong. I dont want to train my lab to do something that I think it is right but wrong in what he is bred to do. it will be hard on me to break that off from him. In end I feel like its what I need to correct about myself in order to train him right and All these advices and adjustments will help a lot, just missing little some tips here and there.

I do have a Remington slip lead that I use to help train him to heel. I am not sure if that is a good training slip lead for him. I have used it for some time now and it helps but doesn't take much effect. I will probably switch up to a different one soon to see if it will work better then what I have.

Going to put in a order for the book you just provided. will probably get the DVDs also. Much appreciated

Timewise65
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Timewise65 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:50 am

Thank you for your honest words. I'm glad I am doing it right, I do see some great progress in my lab, I guess that is what keeps my drive because I enjoy it and love him very much. I will take your advice and implement that towards our daily trainings. I just don't have a guide to tell me whether Im doing it right or wrong. I dont want to train my lab to do something that I think it is right but wrong in what he is bred to do. it will be hard on me to break that off from him. In end I feel like its what I need to correct about myself in order to train him right and All these advices and adjustments will help a lot, just missing little some tips here and there.

I do have a Remington slip lead that I use to help train him to heel. I am not sure if that is a good training slip lead for him. I have used it for some time now and it helps but doesn't take much effect. I will probably switch up to a different one soon to see if it will work better then what I have.

Going to put in a order for the book you just provided. will probably get the DVDs also. Much appreciated[/quote]

You will learn most of what you need to know about traning from the resources you are looking at purchasing....

BUT, I highly, again, recommend you get a pinch collar! They will not harm the pup, but the slip lead could! Most trainers do not put slip leads on untrained dogs. Once your dog is trained it is not a big deal, but if your dog 'breaks' to chase a cat or whatever and you have him on that lead, he could get hurt.... :mrgreen:

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Kovan
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Kovan » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:24 am

Timewise65 wrote:Thank you for your honest words. I'm glad I am doing it right, I do see some great progress in my lab, I guess that is what keeps my drive because I enjoy it and love him very much. I will take your advice and implement that towards our daily trainings. I just don't have a guide to tell me whether Im doing it right or wrong. I dont want to train my lab to do something that I think it is right but wrong in what he is bred to do. it will be hard on me to break that off from him. In end I feel like its what I need to correct about myself in order to train him right and All these advices and adjustments will help a lot, just missing little some tips here and there.

I do have a Remington slip lead that I use to help train him to heel. I am not sure if that is a good training slip lead for him. I have used it for some time now and it helps but doesn't take much effect. I will probably switch up to a different one soon to see if it will work better then what I have.

Going to put in a order for the book you just provided. will probably get the DVDs also. Much appreciated
You will learn most of what you need to know about traning from the resources you are looking at purchasing....

BUT, I highly, again, recommend you get a pinch collar! They will not harm the pup, but the slip lead could! Most trainers do not put slip leads on untrained dogs. Once your dog is trained it is not a big deal, but if your dog 'breaks' to chase a cat or whatever and you have him on that lead, he could get hurt.... :mrgreen:[/quote]


I put in a order for a one of the collar you mentioned and also some supplies from gun dog supply website. I am excited and cant wait for it to come in.

Timewise65
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Timewise65 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:45 am

Looks like you are off and running...good luck to you and your new pup....most importantly be sure that you and your puppy have fun, that is the most important part of training.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by RoostersMom » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:17 pm

If you do end up sending him away, think about 3 months, not 1 month. It's hard for a trainer to do much in that short of a time when he has to "learn" the dog as well. Surely you can find a good trainer to work with you - most will offer short lessons for you and the dog together if you prefer that method. Even if you have to drive a couple hours on the weekends, it'll be worth it.

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Kovan
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Kovan » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:03 am

RoostersMom wrote:If you do end up sending him away, think about 3 months, not 1 month. It's hard for a trainer to do much in that short of a time when he has to "learn" the dog as well. Surely you can find a good trainer to work with you - most will offer short lessons for you and the dog together if you prefer that method. Even if you have to drive a couple hours on the weekends, it'll be worth it.
Most trainers are about 45 minutes to an hour away from where I live and even though it is quite a drive I don't mind the drive, I believe it will be worth it. it will be a great experience for me and my lab. I was also thinking of the same, one month will not be enough. I want to be able give a trainer, myself and my lab time to understand what we need/have to do.

Timewise65
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Timewise65 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:12 am

I agree that one month is a bit short to accomplish much by a trainer. A good trainer will want to see the pup and do a quick assessment of the pup before you agree to use them. From that they should be able to talk about where the pup is and how long it MIGHT take to train him. The big question is what level of training do you want. Getting a dog to what I call the basic level, "Marking, Retrieving to hand and fully obedient" will take from 1-3 months depending on where you are with the pup, how quick the pup is at learning, and how good the trainer is.


Now getting a dog back that is a Finished Retriever is another story, usually 9-12 months! :mrgreen:


Good luck

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Kovan
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Kovan » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:49 am

Timewise65 wrote:I agree that one month is a bit short to accomplish much by a trainer. A good trainer will want to see the pup and do a quick assessment of the pup before you agree to use them. From that they should be able to talk about where the pup is and how long it MIGHT take to train him. The big question is what level of training do you want. Getting a dog to what I call the basic level, "Marking, Retrieving to hand and fully obedient" will take from 1-3 months depending on where you are with the pup, how quick the pup is at learning, and how good the trainer is.


Now getting a dog back that is a Finished Retriever is another story, usually 9-12 months! :mrgreen:


Good luck

Sounds like I have along way to go :D nothing to serious, just the basic hunting dog thing. I don't plan to do any hunt test or advance training. Just want a hunting buddy :mrgreen:

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by polmaise » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:22 pm

Kovan wrote: Sounds like I have along way to go :D nothing to serious, just the basic hunting dog thing. I don't plan to do any hunt test or advance training. Just want a hunting buddy :mrgreen:
Sending the dog for training for one month three ,or even longer with a Pro is highly unlikely to get a hunting buddy. A sequential process of training or program to achieve required skills for both Dog and handler will be required. (from the Pro trainers perspective,they would have to validate what they have achieved with the dog ,to justify the fee at the very least ) .
Globally ,I am not familiar with the term "Just the basic hunting dog thing" , but I can imagine it is similar to this side of the pond with many clients who have a perception and adoration for the Sport and would like the same with their dog as others do ,but have never done it ,so they seek advise .
A hunting buddy is an asset when trained to do what it should do ,not what it would like to do.
...
Go Hunt, take your buddy and have fun ,make mistakes ,but who cares as long as you are both doing what you want and in the company of each other .. You dont need a Trainer for that .
You certainly dont need a pinch collar or any other apparatus either .
Without a learned process for each however ,the Hunter may not get what they want in that "End picture" . The dog will just do what works for it .
7 months from now ...Hope to see how the dog is in the shooting field :mrgreen:

Timewise65
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Timewise65 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:02 pm

Kovan wrote:
Timewise65 wrote:I agree that one month is a bit short to accomplish much by a trainer. A good trainer will want to see the pup and do a quick assessment of the pup before you agree to use them. From that they should be able to talk about where the pup is and how long it MIGHT take to train him. The big question is what level of training do you want. Getting a dog to what I call the basic level, "Marking, Retrieving to hand and fully obedient" will take from 1-3 months depending on where you are with the pup, how quick the pup is at learning, and how good the trainer is.


Now getting a dog back that is a Finished Retriever is another story, usually 9-12 months! :mrgreen:


Good luck

Sounds like I have along way to go :D nothing to serious, just the basic hunting dog thing. I don't plan to do any hunt test or advance training. Just want a hunting buddy :mrgreen:

That's where I started many moons ago, with my first Golden Retriever. In time I quickly realized that when I was out in the field with her, there were a number of ways my pup could get hurt or lost and I had no way to control it. I almost learned this lesson the hard, way when she ran into a fence fortunately it did no permanent damage... Owning and hunting a dog is a bit like being a parent, you have to do enough to keep the pup safe.

If they chase an animal and you do not have a fool proof 'recall' your dog may be gone forever. If they are running in the field and you cannot sit them with a whistle or recall them, they can run into a barb wire fence. That will hurt the dog for sure and can kill them. If they come upon a rattlesnake, porcupine, or skunk (or Alligator, Lizard, etc.) if you do not have control of the dog, they can be hurt and or killed...etc. etc. etc. If you hunt waterfowl in lakes or ponds they can break when the see birds coming into your blind set up, they can be accidentally shot or for sure they will be hit by the sound from the muzzle of the gun. In time this actually makes the dog lose its hearing. A wounded duck can swim for 100's of yards and in some instances your dog can actually get lost. Without a recall, you cannot stop this from happening.

Bottom line, If you want to hunt your dog, you have to train it to be 100% reliable on the recall (here) and sit command, preferably by whistle command, or you are asking for trouble. You do not need a trainer for this, but you have to get this done, before you further expose the dog to the dangers that exist in the field....

As for the Hunt Tests....you really should go see one, before discounting it as a training opportunity. You can find one this Spring on the AKC website search for Hunt Tests. You can find one near you for sure. Go in the morning and watch the Junior Hunter run a test...I think you will be surprized. This is another way to learn to train your pup and expose it to real hunting set ups with live birds. It cost little and is controlled so that your dog is not exposed to what he will be in a real hunting situation....

Consider it!

Good Luck

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by CaptStephen73 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:23 pm

I’m dropping off my 6 month old GSP for training this Sunday. I had 3 field trial labs that were all Pro trained and in my experience, what a pro can do in a few months I’d be lucky to do in a years time. I guide waterfowl and upland and there truly is nothing worse when someone brings their dog they claimed they trained and it has to get hacked through a field or it won’t sit still on a Duck/Goose hunt. I actually had a client that said goose were flaring the decoys i had set so I really didn’t wanna do it but asked him to kennel up his dog. Amazingly shortly after birds came in on a string. Nothing better than a well trained dog

Timewise65
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Timewise65 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:19 am

CaptStephen73 wrote:I’m dropping off my 6 month old GSP for training this Sunday. I had 3 field trial labs that were all Pro trained and in my experience, what a pro can do in a few months I’d be lucky to do in a years time. I guide waterfowl and upland and there truly is nothing worse when someone brings their dog they claimed they trained and it has to get hacked through a field or it won’t sit still on a Duck/Goose hunt. I actually had a client that said goose were flaring the decoys i had set so I really didn’t wanna do it but asked him to kennel up his dog. Amazingly shortly after birds came in on a string. Nothing better than a well trained dog
Well said, and I really agree their is nothing worse than hunting with guys whose dogs are not fully trained! I have had this experience multiple times when hunting Pheasant and Ducks! Dogs that are not trained not only ruin the hunting but frequently create dangerous situations for the dogs and the hunters.

People who are not pro's can train their own dogs, but it take a major commitment of time and resources to do it right. Also, someone new to Sport Dog training has to learn a mass of information and on top of that they should go watch a Trial or Hunt Test or hire a guide to take them hunting with well trained dogs. You really cannot learn what to train a dog until you have actually hunted with or watched someone working a dog in a real hunting situation.


I have known many guys who have trained their own dogs, many in the years of Hunt Tests I ran my dogs in....but VERY FEW...trained them properly....! Most who I hunted with were a pain to hunt with...e.g. most recently a friend of my son brought someone on a pheasant hunt, he worked with. He had a nice pointer that was 18 months old. He did every thing right on his training efforts, and it showed he had worked hard on training, except he did not force fetch (or do something to deal with 'Hard Mouth' problem his dog had developed). Therefore, when the pup fetched a bird, he distroyed it before he got it back to his handler. Now, I know there are many ways to train a dog so that they minimize that it may be hard mouthed, but for me, FF is the best way to minimize or stop this from developing....of course that's just me...Regardless, this kid had a good dog, had worked hard to condition and train the dog, but his lack of knowledge and experience made the dog a real problem to hunt with. I tried to talk to him about it....but his breeder had told him not to FF the dog, but offered no alternative training ideas!??

Bottom line if one is going to train there own dog, do the homework, learn what you are trying to do and exactly what you have to do to make the dog a good hunting companion. Then be sure you can committ the necessary time and resources over the next 10-12 months to get this job done. Realize that this training effort has to continue for the hunting life of the dog....

or find a good trainer and pay the price for a good pup. Another benefit for the unexperienced hunter, most trainers will train you also, so you can maintain the pup for life.....

Steve007
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Steve007 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:06 pm

Timewise65 wrote: Bottom line if one is going to train there own dog, do the homework, learn what you are trying to do and exactly what you have to do to make the dog a good hunting companion. Then be sure you can committ the necessary time and resources over the next 10-12 months to get this job done. Realize that this training effort has to continue for the hunting life of the dog....
Last statement which I have boldfaced is wholly incorrect, putting aside that there are always going to be departures from the norm. Presuming you take the time to train your dog properly – and I don't disagree with the beginning parts of this paragraph –, most of us know that you will be a team and you and your dog will be on "automatic". As an example, while my dogs always run with an E collar, I doubt that I ever use it after the first or second year. We are on "automatic", we are a team and we work together. The concept that "this training effort has to continue for the hunting life of the dog" is simply false. I am certain many --perhaps most -- others here can say the same. If not, some might say that there was an error in the initial training or simply the relationship between man and dog, barring obvious unusual situations.

(My comments above apply to pointing dogs. No personal knowledge of retrievers.)

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by polmaise » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:57 pm

Steve007 wrote: (My comments above apply to pointing dogs. No personal knowledge of retrievers.)
If You have to say sit or heel to a Retriever after training it to sit or heel , then it pretty much says that the dog has not learned to sit or heel at the correct place or time .
Perhaps some Like to hear the sound of their own voice , as a comfort .

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by averageguy » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:41 pm

Steve007 wrote:
Timewise65 wrote: Bottom line if one is going to train there own dog, do the homework, learn what you are trying to do and exactly what you have to do to make the dog a good hunting companion. Then be sure you can committ the necessary time and resources over the next 10-12 months to get this job done. Realize that this training effort has to continue for the hunting life of the dog....
Last statement which I have boldfaced is wholly incorrect, putting aside that there are always going to be departures from the norm. Presuming you take the time to train your dog properly – and I don't disagree with the beginning parts of this paragraph –, most of us know that you will be a team and you and your dog will be on "automatic". As an example, while my dogs always run with an E collar, I doubt that I ever use it after the first or second year. We are on "automatic", we are a team and we work together. The concept that "this training effort has to continue for the hunting life of the dog" is simply false. I am certain many --perhaps most -- others here can say the same. If not, some might say that there was an error in the initial training or simply the relationship between man and dog, barring obvious unusual situations.

(My comments above apply to pointing dogs. No personal knowledge of retrievers.)
I don't buy this at all. I agree with Timewise65's honesty that training efforts continue at some level for the life a dog.

I am retired and hunt wild birds from September through February/March (depending the Spring Snow Goose Migration), Doves, Waterfowl, Pheasants, Bobwhites, Sharptails, Prairie Chickens, Huns with one dog. I hunt alone a great deal and many times on public lands on educated birds which run a bunch. Steadiness to shot and fall is extremely difficult to maintain to an upper level hunt test level, while hunting and shooting wild birds alone.

Training done right the first time can certainly be easily and quickly brushed up to run a Hunt Test once the wild bird seasons close, but it is common for a "Brush up" to be needed, particularly on steadiness to shot and fall after a long run of hunting wild upland birds and all that goes with it.

My comments are relative to a pointing breed as well.

I think keeping retriever steady when hunting waterfowl is far easier than when hunting wild upland birds. For many reasons e.g. the dog is already anchored in a down or sitting position when hunting waterfowl vs moving, hunting, pointing or flushing when hunting upland birds. The shots are anticipated and called far more often when hunting waterfowl over a decoy spread vs the degree of unpredictable when hunting wild upland birds. It is far more rare to hunt waterfowl over a decoy spread alone than upland birds and thus the training can be more easily continually re-enforced as one person shoots at decoying singles and the other keeps the dog honest against breaking... I have asked a lot of judges and everyone of them admitted to letting their dogs break to retrieve falling shot birds when hunting upland birds and then training them back up during the off season before running a Hunt Test.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by shags » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:16 pm

The trainers I know do pretty well for themselves brushing up dogs that owners allow to backslide. Dogs do what dogs do, and it's up to their handlers to keep them honest. Seems like plenty of owners don't want to bother.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by polmaise » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:19 pm

Simple answer , like has been said by a few .
Dog does what it does what works ,for the dog .
Training it to do what it does what works for the dog by doing what the handler wants ,requires Training . Some handlers cant do it .
I cant fix my car when it font start ,never mind , when it doesn't run corners like it does on the adverts .

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Steve007 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:21 pm

"Brush up" is not "this training effort has to continue for the hunting life of the dog". And if you can train the dog yourself, you can certainly keep him that way easily. Of course,if you can't, you can't. But I like to train, and we're always doing something, even if it doesn't directly transfer to the field.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by averageguy » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:55 pm

I have good success training, hunting and testing my dogs.

My experience is it is far more realistic to inform a first time dog handler to expect an ongoing effort will be required to maintain training, than it is to suggest it is one and done. Particularly in areas of extreme temptation for the dog such as Steadiness to falling shot birds while hunting. Hence my Post.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Sharon » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:06 pm

Gentlemen: Could we please not argue about the difference between "brushing up a dog's training" and " ongoing training" ?

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Timewise65 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:38 am

I did not mean to fire up a controverary….

I think we are talking 'semantics'! The 'averageguy, summed it up best, I think, "expect an ongoing effort will be required to maintain training, than it is to suggest it is one and done."

:mrgreen:

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by Kovan » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:25 pm

I cannot agree to say yes your right or your wrong to either one of your words because as of now I don't have the experience, hopefully one day I will depending on how committed I am. I do believe that once you learn something or train to do something it is a permanent skill set, like a muscle memory and I think dogs can do the same but then I also believe retraining and sharpening skills has to be done. for me, Its the same concept as why does sport players have practices. then again every owner is different and every other dog is different, some might need it some might want it, some might not, it all depends. This is just the way how I see it now between me and my retriever in the long run but it could change.

thank you all for your inputs

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:13 pm

Unless you send your dog for two months minimum you're wasting your dough.
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by polmaise » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:19 pm

Kovan wrote:I cannot agree to say yes your right or your wrong to either one of your words because as of now I don't have the experience, hopefully one day I will depending on how committed I am. I do believe that once you learn something or train to do something it is a permanent skill set, like a muscle memory and I think dogs can do the same but then I also believe retraining and sharpening skills has to be done. for me, Its the same concept as why does sport players have practices. then again every owner is different and every other dog is different, some might need it some might want it, some might not, it all depends. This is just the way how I see it now between me and my retriever in the long run but it could change.

thank you all for your inputs
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Re: sending dog for training

Post by cjhills » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:55 am

Finally, Somebody that makes sense......Cj

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by averageguy » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:25 am

Kovan, take a look at the "first time hunt testing" thread.

It is note worthy that one posting "well bred dogs trained right never cheat" in this thread and prior, posted in that thread he has NEVER passed a dog at a MH level with straight passes. Instead ALL of his dogs have all had some failures to pass a Hunt Test along the way.

Which demonstrates the norm for all of us: All dogs will make mistakes and require corrections and some level of repetitious training to address. Only the ability of some trainers to admit it varies.

No one hunts, competes or runs hunt tests with their dogs without a continuing level of training to maintain prior training. Steve007 admits to it and it seems any difference of opinion he and I shared on the matter was a matter of semantics.

This notion that a dog once trained is always trained, with no continuing training effort is keyboard fiction which is really easy to write but impossible to find.

I have been training, hunting and testing my GWPs to hunt upland and waterfowl for over 3 decades now. Trained and hunted hounds prior to that. I hunt my GWPs on waterfowl out of Jon boats, air boats, layout boats, from ground blinds, marsh platforms, pit blinds, make shift natural cover blinds... My current 3 year old dog has hunted waterfowl in 4 states and Canada thus far. The dog passed his NAVHDA UT Prize 1 at 17 months of age which demonstrates he was well trained in numerous difficult upland and waterfowl hunting subjects, (including a MH level of performance standard of steady to WSF in both Upland and waterfowl portions of the test). Or to my point, at least on that day he was.

(I also hunt with Pro Trained, owned and handled dogs of other breeds for wild upland birds and waterfowl annually as well. I attend Hunt Tests and training days on a regular basis observing everything from first time dog handlers to gentlemen walking with canes with what might be their last dog of a lifetime of many ...)

Wary late season honkers or mallards circling the decoy spread overhead many passes at close range before committing, singles dropping into the decoy spread at very close range while the flock makes more passes, multiple dead birds dropped dead in the decoys while a cripple sails off a couple hundred yards are all common situations which will put a lot of pressure on a dog's training, and in turn will benefit from continuing training. A dog which breaks once and will do it again unless it is corrected. A dog which ignores your handling to ignore dead birds in the decoy spread and instead swim past them to get the escaping cripple first, will do it again unless you address it.

Continuing to work on these types of drills in between hunts, during slow periods of hunts, and mostly during the summer off seasons is what all dog trainers do.

When someone's dog fails a Hunt Test, which they have passed before, it demonstrates that all dogs backslide in their training on some days. You can bet your last dollar when that happens the trainer of the dog works some training setups on the specific point of failure before they run their next Hunt Test.

Why some argue differently is another matter entirely but it has nothing to do with training dogs.

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Re: sending dog for training

Post by cjhills » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:35 am

I hope the mods will allow a response to the above post. If not I am good with that.
Average Guy.It is note worthy that you failed to mention that I said sometimes I failed and sometimes my dogs did.
There are many ways to fail a Master test that have nothing to do with the training of the dog.
! dog establishes point handler flushes bird dog turns to mark Bird.(perfectly legal) handler whoas dog. DQ.
2. Dog has everything for a qualifying score except and honor. Judge tells handler to call dog in for a setup honor. Handler calls dog in. Dog obeys, accidentally flushes a bird on the way in. Dog has two options. Stop to flush or continue coming in. Dog chooses to obey command. DQ
3. Handler sends dog to retrieve shot bird. On the return with the bird dog points another bird. No way to follow the rules and get out of that situation. A kind judge might let you call the dog in or someting. But it generally means. DQ
Just a few ways. None of these cases and many more will get you a DQ and have nothing to do with training.
It is just simple logic if my dogs need more training to do what I trained them to do, My training needs work. Not arguing just fact.
Thank You........Cj
Last edited by cjhills on Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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