Vive'ing la difference

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polmaise
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Vive'ing la difference

Post by polmaise » Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:56 pm

That's all folks .
budweiser-dog-day.jpg
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Last edited by polmaise on Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by shags » Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:43 pm

:mrgreen: Horrifying! :mrgreen:

(Well done, Buddy)

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by birddogger2 » Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:04 pm

Polmaise -

Yes it is a different way of going about it than the American field trial version. Not better, certainly not worse...just different. One could say...more utilitarian, more useful to the typical hunter.

Buddy was intent and intense on his game, with very nice style, responded perfectly to the flush command and once the birds were moved, sat and waited. Nicely done. There was very little I saw that I did not like. I am kind of a bug on having a dog lock up at first scent, but the dog did not prematurely bust the birds, so I gotta give the dog credit for handling the covey correctly. Like I said... just different.

I do completely agree that hunting over Buddy might well afford more shot opportunities in thick cover for the single hunter than the American version and as a spectacularly mediocre wingshot, I do appreciate all the advantage I can get.

Nice dog...nice work. Thanks for sharing.

RayG

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by cjhills » Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:22 pm

Polmaise
I have always thought I would like my dogs to work that way..
Two issues that I have are this. I think our wild birds are much spookier in the west. My dogs point pretty far off. 40 to 80 yards on covey birds. we would need to have the dog move in closer or the shots would get pretty long. The other thing is the possibility of a dog getting shot in long grass, if he jumps to catch the bird when it flushes. I have seen that happen to a couple springers.
Nice dog though.......Cj

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by Trekmoor » Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:16 pm

I liked the dogs work very much. It did what I train all of mine to do. The covey contained the adult birds and this years well grown brood and at this time of the year the grouse tend to sit tight and permit a close approach provided the approach is a careful and non noisy one.

This remains the case for at least a month ….well into the shooting season but they do get much "wilder" and will start to get up when a dog is still at least 50 yards away from them . The dogs, the good ones anyway, solve this problem themselves. They begin to point and to hold point from at least 50 yards from the birds ….an 80 yards point sometimes happens on good scenting days if a dog has fairly recently went too close to the birds and bumped them ….. I have often noticed that my dogs hate to see game bumped up even more than I do ! :lol:

When these long distance points start to happen it can be very difficult to get close enough to the birds for a shot. When I used to take out small parties of an estates shooting clients I used to read them the riot act about shooting safely and then send a gun out on a wide detour around the birds and then move in with the dog(s) and the other gun or guns. Only the "sneak gun" had permission to shoot if the flushed birds flew in his direction.

It took a bit of experience to successfully work out the probable direction the flushed birds would take. Some of the clients did not like this "only one man shoots" way of working but they soon discovered that it produced more shots and a few birds in the bag.

I admit to being very surprised when I first discovered that ,in general, pointing dogs in America are not supposed to flush their birds . I can see how your way of doing things works but I'm too lazy to do something that the dog can do much better than I can.

Bill T.
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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by polmaise » Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:56 pm

birddogger2 wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:04 pm
Polmaise -

Yes it is a different way of going about it than the American field trial version. Not better, certainly not worse...just different. One could say...more utilitarian, more useful to the typical hunter.

Buddy was intent and intense on his game, with very nice style, responded perfectly to the flush command and once the birds were moved, sat and waited. Nicely done. There was very little I saw that I did not like. I am kind of a bug on having a dog lock up at first scent, but the dog did not prematurely bust the birds, so I gotta give the dog credit for handling the covey correctly. Like I said... just different.

I do completely agree that hunting over Buddy might well afford more shot opportunities in thick cover for the single hunter than the American version and as a spectacularly mediocre wingshot, I do appreciate all the advantage I can get.

Nice dog...nice work. Thanks for sharing.

RayG
Never did say one way or other was good bad or best ..just different . lay the games as we see it , run the rules as you play it . We can all learn from each other ....Or not. Nobody changes the rules in 'Gundogs' ,only clubs and committees and judges and secretaries and ORGS# do that .
Bird dogs and hunters ,especially those that shoot over their dogs have their own rules ,and those that have a disciplined and huntworthy dog will enjoy their game.(some fantasize over the expectation of what it should be for them) incl Trials.
Regards
Robert

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by averageguy » Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:02 pm

Beautiful habitat, dog and birds. Enjoyed it.

When I can I prefer to be in front of the dog flushing myself.

This approach makes it safer for the dog and protects their hearing better because the gun is out of front of them vs behind them.

There are absolutely times when hunting bobwhites in heavy cover and pheasants in cattails where a dog trained to release and flush on command would be an asset. Open country birds I don't see it being the case but it is sure ok with me if someone else does.

I run my dogs with Garmin GPS on and ole Spud had a covey Chukars pointed last season 125 yards off the birds.

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:23 pm

When I posted distances of 50 or 80 yards I was understating the distances ….. I'm a modest sort of person ! 8) :lol:

I've seen dogs indicate game up ahead at almost incredible distances but you still have to approach that game close enough to get a shot and that is sometimes a problem with late season grouse . They "know" too much and can be very nervous.

If you live long enough you will maybe come to understand dogs and game a bit better …..meanwhile just keep taking the pills Robert ! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Bill T.
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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by polmaise » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:43 pm

Downwind is a pile of xxx
Stories of yesteryear.
I'll dig out the old clips of Rosie and hollering and bellowing , :lol:
......
Everyone has a lovely viewpoint on a forum.God love them all. :mrgreen:

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by averageguy » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:33 pm

I wasn't trying to one up you Bill T. That is just how it was :).

Full disclosure. I had heard of such distances from Chukar hunters but never experienced it. Truth be known I figured those distances were a bit windy. I am much more familiar with head high points in the 50-60 yard range.

My Garmin went off indicating Spud was on point and the distance of some 2xx yards at the time. He was out of sight in the rolling terrain and I headed his way. I rolled over the top of a hill and saw him down the slope below, standing tall head/nose cranked up pointing directly at me. The birds were between he and I and was thinking probably 60 yards out if front of Spud per the norm.

I was taken completely by surprise when I walked into that covey while still 125 yards from Spud. Guess those guys weren't so windy after all.

No doubt our prairie grouse get very spooky with just one or two encounters with men and dogs. It becomes rare to get a decent shot on a pointed bird in the mid and late season and I hunt pheasants, bobwhites and waterfowl vs grouse at that stage of the season.

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by weimdogman » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:23 pm

I think the majority of Pheasant hunters have their dogs flush the game. I say that because trialed and tested dogs are in the minority.

I have a friend who was gifted a highly trained/tested/awarded VDD. He was just telling me the other day that when he first took the dog out by himself he couldn't get the dog to flush or retrieve. He called his buddy and said ""bleep" funny this dog pointed a bird and locked up won't move".
Other guy says" you have seen me tap him on the back of the head to release him". Friend says while still on the phone I walk over tap the dog and he goes and retrieves the bird. Felt like a idiot. Thanked the other guy and thanked him again for the great dog!

He then told me it took a full season to train that dog to flush a bird.

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by cjhills » Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:52 am

Almost everybody I know and hunt with who train their dogs at all, train them steady to flush. Be it pointer or flusher. It is easy to do, beautiful to see and productive. Some let the dog go on the shot. the think the dogs find the bird easier, don't know about that but it is a big debate. Flushing can't be a bit of an adventure in the tall grass prairies. Trying to flush a skunk, a overweight upset Raccoon, turkey, a sleeping deer or bear can exciting. Of course having the dog try to flush a skunk can make the trip home interesting.
My preference has always been steady to WSF. I don't really see late season birds being spookier. I think birds generally hold better in snow. The young birds that survive get older and smarter. It has been my experience that some times birds hold tight and sometimes they flush wild, be it October or January.
Interesting thread on a subject I have thought a lot about. Thanks, P.........Cj

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by averageguy » Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:43 am

The overwhelming majority of prairie grouse hunters agree they become a tremendous challenge once the family groups come together into large flocks as the fall turns to winter. Walk far enough in the best population areas and a guy will find that rare single pointed bird opportunity in the winter, but it is nothing like it is in September and early October hunting the comparatively naive single family groups feeding on grasshoppers in the pastures.

I commonly see big flocks of 50 to 100 Prairie Chickens flushing wild off of hilltops 300-400 yards away while hunting pheasants in SD in the winter.

Late Season Sharptail

Image

Early Season Prairie Chickens

Image

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by cjhills » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:53 am

In the good years of Sharptail hunting in ND ( before fracking) you could easily shoot a daily limit of Sharptails in October over any kind of dog or no dog. I knew people who sat in a lawn chair in the olive groves and shot incoming birds. 75% were young of the year. As I said the young birds that survive get smarter. Obviously with fewer young birds and general numbers the hunting gets tougher and you have to walk farther. Also with less vegetation the birds can see you farther. If they are feeding in a wind blown wheat field they are not going to let you stroll up and shoot them, no matter how your dog works. try hunting south facing slopes with some cover on a sunny, cold winter day. You might find them easier to approach. You might find some Huns also. After you flush the covey you can easily hunt singles. This is when you need to flush the covey your self, you might get close enough to shoot a couple. Do this in early afternoon so the birds can get back into cover before dark. night comes early in the North in DEC and can be cold. No Snakes After Sept.
When you hunt the singles it might be good to let the dog flush. But the singles hold well.
No Chickens in the north. don't no about them. Huns are the most fun bird in the world to hunt.
Thanks, Viva La diference........Cj

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by averageguy » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:39 am

Numbers have been down in ND for last few years and I have not experienced the heyday of the past there.

Spud and I hunted in ND in his puppy season and had a ball but we worked for everything we got. He was 7 months old and this was his first one.

Image

I have hunted Prairie Grouse in MT, NV, WY, ND, SD, KS, NE and Alberta. A great deal of it was quite challenging as well as in the running for the most enjoyable bird hunting I do.

Prairie Chickens are bigger than Sharptails, stand taller and are more wary in my view and I have heard a lot of others say the same. The motel I stay in SD is filled with Prairie Grouse hunters in September and October and I visit with them daily. The first week of season people talk of filling limits, a different reality sets in after that with the human hunters covering 12-15 miles a day and often not having a limit of grouse in their bag.

Love the Huns. They might be my favorite but I am fickle and prone to saying that about every bird I am hunting while in the act of doing it.

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by polmaise » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:30 pm

cjhills wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:52 am
My preference has always been steady to WSF. I don't really see late season birds being spookier. I think birds generally hold better in snow. The young birds that survive get older and smarter. It has been my experience that some times birds hold tight and sometimes they flush wild, be it October or January.
Interesting thread on a subject I have thought a lot about. Thanks, P.........Cj
WSF ,is the safest and most productive (ime) as a Foot soldier with either one or multiple dogs .....or shooters out for game.
On the subject of birds holding tight? again (ime) it has little to do with the time of year or the age of the bird ? more the environment/and circumstance the bird --or birds find themselves 'found' ? ..lol
A large covey only requires one to take flight and the rest are 'Off' ,following suit,perhaps?
Thick cover, and they may well think they are safe to tuck in them feathers to reduce scent being released ,whether they are young or old , or have been flushed for the first time by man or dog , no matter the time of year ?
Some covey's can 'walk' in the presence of danger , rather than fly ' ..perhaps some of those recorded 'Points' of 120 yards + and the handler having to walk another 50 yards from the dog to flush them is perhaps a dog 'not following on point' ? I don't know .
Wild birds for sure , do and can surprise you just when you think you have seen and done it all .
Best for me (and I usually don't take the shot,just because) ..When a dog is 'pressuring the single bird to sit' right up close and personal :wink:
Nice Topic, and good discussion . On 'La difference' .

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by averageguy » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:23 am

Spud is an expert at self relocating on running birds. As many times as it takes. If he is holding point he is still in the scent cone of the birds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGqvlwr6UKE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qpNuGYf2fI

Yes, more eyes is a major factor in why as family groups of grouse come together in large flocks, they become extremely difficult to approach within gun range as a dog points them in open country. All it takes is one sentry bird.

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by Giuseppe » Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:33 am

averageguy wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:23 am
Spud is an expert at self relocating on running birds. As many times as it takes. If he is holding point he is still in the scent cone of the birds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGqvlwr6UKE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qpNuGYf2fI

Yes, more eyes is a major factor in why as family groups of grouse come together in large flocks, they become extremely difficult to approach within gun range as a dog points them in open country. All it takes is one sentry bird.
These are awesome videos. Great style on point. I am originally from Europe and I love when dogs are able to self relocate and handle the birds on their own. I remember reading on some other post that your dog has been through NAVHDA testing. How do you manage him self relocating during a UT? I am assuming that during those tests (like in AKC MH and FT and AF field trials) dogs are not allowed to self relocate. Can Spud tell the difference between a hunting situation and a test?
I have to say, I am not sure I will ever get fully used to the american style of not allowing the dog to self relocate and handle birds on it's own. My GSP housed to self relocate and handle Iowa pheasants beautifully. Last summer I sent her with a trainer to summer camp in prairie grouse country. She came back green broke to WS (trainer was awesome by the way). But now she seldom relocates on her own on pen raised birds, pigeons or wild pheasants. Great for HT and FT but a pain having to go tap her on the head everytime she goes on point and a bird has been running when hunting wild pheasants.

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by nevermind » Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:32 am

Enjoyed seeing your video's polmaise. You do train dogs to a higher standard. I like to get in front of the dog and flush whenever the birds allow it to happen. Agree that conditions and environment are main factors. I mostly pheasant hunt. The area I hunt there's times when birds are wild flushing 80-100yds. ahead of the dog one day and the next day, after 3 or more inches of fresh snow there's not much of challenge...you have to kick the bird out of hiding. Kinda off subject here … are pheasants in Scotland pen raised? I visited during the months of Aug. and Sept. and seems to be a wet environment... what's spring like? I'm asking because a wet and cold spring weather here is not ideal for successful wild pheasant hatch.
PS.. I apologize for any curb damage I may have cause while driving in Scotland :D

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by Sharon » Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:45 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:33 am

These are awesome videos. Great style on point. I am originally from Europe and I love when dogs are able to self relocate and handle the birds on their own. I remember reading on some other post that your dog has been through NAVHDA testing. How do you manage him self relocating during a UT? I am assuming that during those tests (like in AKC MH and FT and AF field trials) dogs are not allowed to self relocate. Can Spud tell the difference between a hunting situation and a test?
I have to say, I am not sure I will ever get fully used to the american style of not allowing the dog to self relocate and handle birds on it's own. My GSP housed to self relocate and handle Iowa pheasants beautifully. Last summer I sent her with a trainer to summer camp in prairie grouse country. She came back green broke to WS (trainer was awesome by the way). But now she seldom relocates on her own on pen raised birds, pigeons or wild pheasants. Great for HT and FT but a pain having to go tap her on the head everytime she goes on point and a bird has been running when hunting wild pheasants.
...........................................


Exactly how I feel. You've hit a nerve.:) Often I was eliminated from a trial because my dog had self relocated. Apparently she was suppose to stand and stare at the spot where the birds had left ( even though she knew where they now were) until I got off the horse and touched her head. Really?
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by averageguy » Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:58 am

Thank you Giuseppe.

In the NAVHDA UT a dog can self relocate without penalty as long as the handler is not in front in the act of flushing. I'd bet money if you hunt your dog a good bit and remain silent it will start relocating again on its own when it needs to. Mine do. As you mentioned dogs know full well when they are in a hunt test vs hunting wild birds.

Nevermind, Pheasants have days when they hold well in snow (until it becomes frozen and crunchy), but that is not predictive of what Prairie Grouse do in my experience. Those grouse are in large flocks and fly in and out of grain fields to feed. Very difficult to approach is what is common. A guy can sit in camo and pass shoot them as they fly in sometimes but you had better be hid well and able to swing a shotgun as they are deceptively fast when in full flight.
Last edited by averageguy on Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by polmaise » Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:59 am

'nevermind' ,
August and September is our closed season for pheasant ,the hunting season for them start on 1st October ,so.. any pen reared and released on wild cover would have little tail and just on the wing ,hardly flying and thousands on the ground ,mostly running, or pure "bleep" stupid.
August (12th) is the start of Grouse (shooting) ,and 1st September is start of Ducks and Partridge (wild or reared) .
Moot point: regarding 'wild pheasant' ! ..These are usually pre-reared birds that made it through the previous shooting season , or been reared wild by them that year , and those guys are right 'smart' !! they have learned to outwit the fox and the hawk and the pet owners dog and the mink,weasel,stoat as well as the adverse weather that can often have four seasons in one day with variance of cover ...These guy's 'Run' ..and they can ,like Foghorn Leghorn ,and out wit the best of 'Pointers/finders/flushers,and shooters ,when they fly , they also fly low ,like exocets the height of long grass and disappear.
As for weather on your visit or any future one's ...bring a coat even when it is sunny :lol: August and September being our autumn colours can be magical and wondrous on a good day and bite you with icy cold wind and or snow the next . Not the first time I have been holding on to a double barrel with wind and sleet coming horizontal cutting the eyes with a Labrador tucked between my legs getting cover while I wait on last light for a mallard or two, or even better a few 'Springing Teal' (the sport of kings) .........Then have a dog sent and find , then locate . and return ,with a soft mouth to deliver in my frozen hand ....In the dark :wink:
I must be off my head . :roll: :lol:

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by Steve007 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:30 pm

averageguy wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:02 pm

There are absolutely times when hunting bobwhites in heavy cover and pheasants in cattails where a dog trained to release and flush on command would be an asset.
When my dogs have pointed birds in heavy cover including thorns and brambles, I have often thought how nice it would be to keep a Miniature Wirehaired Dachshund in my hunting jacket for such occasions.

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by cjhills » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:10 am

I am not a huge fan of the dog relocating on a running pheasant. Or at least I don't like the dog tracking a running bird. The bird easily out runs the dog
and flushes out of range when it runs out of cover or gets uncomfortable for some other reason. I also don't like walking through a foot of snow to tap the dog. I prefer that the dog breaks off from the bird and tries to cut it off or relocate it or find another bird. I do not like a pointing dog with its nose on the ground. With the possible exception of smelling blood.
Also in the country I hunt all peasants are wild and very fast runners.
One other thing. IME prairie birds are not particularly concerned about canines, they deal with them every day of their life. They will be very watchful of a dog pointing from eighty yards away. You can approach from a different direction. They are very concerned about a human voice and will spook on the slightest command to the dog. Thanks.......Cj

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by cjhills » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:49 am

averageguy wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:58 am
Thank you Giuseppe.

In the NAVHDA UT a dog can self relocate without penalty as long as the handler is not in front in the act of flushing. I'd bet money if you hunt your dog a good bit and remain silent it will start relocating again on its own when it needs to. Mine do. As you mentioned dogs know full well when they are in a hunt test vs hunting wild birds.

Nevermind, Pheasants have days when they hold well in snow (until it becomes frozen and crunchy), but that is not predictive of what Prairie Grouse do in my experience. Those grouse are in large flocks and fly in and out of grain fields to feed. Very difficult to approach is what is common. A guy can sit in camo and pass shoot them as they fly in sometimes but you had better be hid well and able to swing a shotgun as they are deceptively fast when in full flight.
What birds are you referring to as Prairie Grouse. Must be Sharptails and Chickens. Chickens are pretty much non existent in the north. I have shot a few in central SD.
Huns are Hungarian Partrige, so it must not be them. Sharptails are about the easiest bird to hit of all the huntable species......Cj

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by polmaise » Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:51 pm

averageguy wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:58 am
I'd bet money if you hunt your dog a good bit and remain silent it will start relocating again on its own when it needs to. Mine do. As you mentioned dogs know full well when they are in a hunt test vs hunting wild birds.
Kinda goes against the grain of them folks who have dogs that just stay there until a tap , or even a dismount from a horse ?
I think Giuseppe asked a question ,rather than mention as confirmation I could be wrong?
Personally, If a dog knows full well the difference between a hunt test vs hunting wild birds , then those dogs are not for me ,or any shooter/hunter or even Field trialer I know. But hey' If it works for the games one plays , Non sibi sed patriae. Oorah to all that be the best with theirs .

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by averageguy » Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:20 am

cjhills wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:49 am
averageguy wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:58 am
Thank you Giuseppe.

In the NAVHDA UT a dog can self relocate without penalty as long as the handler is not in front in the act of flushing. I'd bet money if you hunt your dog a good bit and remain silent it will start relocating again on its own when it needs to. Mine do. As you mentioned dogs know full well when they are in a hunt test vs hunting wild birds.

Nevermind, Pheasants have days when they hold well in snow (until it becomes frozen and crunchy), but that is not predictive of what Prairie Grouse do in my experience. Those grouse are in large flocks and fly in and out of grain fields to feed. Very difficult to approach is what is common. A guy can sit in camo and pass shoot them as they fly in sometimes but you had better be hid well and able to swing a shotgun as they are deceptively fast when in full flight.
What birds are you referring to as Prairie Grouse. Must be Sharptails and Chickens. Chickens are pretty much non existent in the north. I have shot a few in central SD.
Huns are Hungarian Partrige, so it must not be them. Sharptails are about the easiest bird to hit of all the huntable species......Cj
Yes I was referring to Sharptails and Prairie Chickens.

I have a pretty elite group of very accomplished dog people on Facebook. I asked them what their experience was between early season vs late season prairie grouse.

Every response out of some 30 odd persons was the same as mine. Late Season is like an entirely different species of bird and very difficult in comparison.

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by averageguy » Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:24 am

polmaise wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:51 pm
averageguy wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:58 am
I'd bet money if you hunt your dog a good bit and remain silent it will start relocating again on its own when it needs to. Mine do. As you mentioned dogs know full well when they are in a hunt test vs hunting wild birds.
Kinda goes against the grain of them folks who have dogs that just stay there until a tap , or even a dismount from a horse ?
I think Giuseppe asked a question ,rather than mention as confirmation I could be wrong?
Personally, If a dog knows full well the difference between a hunt test vs hunting wild birds , then those dogs are not for me ,or any shooter/hunter or even Field trialer I know. But hey' If it works for the games one plays , Non sibi sed patriae. Oorah to all that be the best with theirs .
I would say a dog which does not know the difference between a Hunt Test and Hunting has done very little Hunting. Every good dog man I know would say the same so I guess we run in entirely different circles.

Seems you need to reread Giuseppe's post as his preference for a dog self relocating and his lament his dog used to and now does not is very apparent. Hence my response.

I have listened to Jon Hann discuss this many times. A guy who has won far more FTs than most and who hunts wild birds annually from ND to NM. His standard of training and performance is very simple. The dog is free to relocate until he is in front of the dog attempting to flush. The dog is never free to attempt to catch the bird unless it is wounded. Same as the two NAVHDA Senior Judge Friends of mine responded when I asked them and relayed the answer to Giuseppe.

It yields a dog which knows how to work wild birds and relocate when it needs to and a dog which will stand steady to pen raised morons walking in plain sight of the dog while the handler is in front trying to make them fly in a Hunt Test.

CJ, Spud hunts wild roosters in 4 states annually. He is an expert as can be seen in that video. His nose and head are cranked up beautifully as Giuseppe commented. I cannot tell you how many hundreds of running wild rooster pheasants I have shot behind GWPs working as seen in that video over the last 40 years.

Spud pinned down that bird and produced an easy shot when it flushed going out low and straight away as PHD educated public land surviving pheasants are known to do.

cjhills
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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by cjhills » Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:26 am

averageguy wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:20 am
cjhills wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:49 am
averageguy wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:58 am
Thank you Giuseppe.

In the NAVHDA UT a dog can self relocate without penalty as long as the handler is not in front in the act of flushing. I'd bet money if you hunt your dog a good bit and remain silent it will start relocating again on its own when it needs to. Mine do. As you mentioned dogs know full well when they are in a hunt test vs hunting wild birds.

Nevermind, Pheasants have days when they hold well in snow (until it becomes frozen and crunchy), but that is not predictive of what Prairie Grouse do in my experience. Those grouse are in large flocks and fly in and out of grain fields to feed. Very difficult to approach is what is common. A guy can sit in camo and pass shoot them as they fly in sometimes but you had better be hid well and able to swing a shotgun as they are deceptively fast when in full flight.
What birds are you referring to as Prairie Grouse. Must be Sharptails and Chickens. Chickens are pretty much non existent in the north. I have shot a few in central SD.
Huns are Hungarian Partrige, so it must not be them. Sharptails are about the easiest bird to hit of all the huntable species......Cj
Yes I was referring to Sharptails and Prairie Chickens.

I have a pretty elite group of very accomplished dog people on Facebook. I asked them what their experience was between early season vs late season prairie grouse.

Every response out of some 30 odd persons was the same as mine. Late Season is like an entirely different species of bird and very difficult in comparison.
Prairie Chickens were nearly extinct from the fifties until fairly recently. Mostly due to habitat loss and that they were easy to kill in the days when rural people hunted for food as opposed to sport. PC season in Minnesota was closed for some years. Their restoration has been a huge success story in some states. I still have a guilt complex about shooting one. Mn has some small permit zones where you can draw for a permit otherwise closed.
My apologies to Polmaise for the highjack. i just thought it was interesting..........Cj

averageguy
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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by averageguy » Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:40 am

I hunt Prairie Chickens and Sharptails annually. The Chickens are very plentiful in KS, NE and SD, hence the long 3 month open season. I see hundreds a day in SD. I have shot both Sharptails and Chickens in the same day in SD on numerous occasions but the Chickens out number the Sharptails about 3:1 in the area I hunt.

That group of dog men/trainers/breeders/hunters/judges I surveyed includes guys living in MT, ND, SD, OR, UT, WY, NE, KS. They are lifelong bird hunters with far above average knowledge, experience and success. Not a person calls them easy to hunt past the early season.

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by Giuseppe » Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:43 am

averageguy wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:24 am
polmaise wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:51 pm
averageguy wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:58 am
I'd bet money if you hunt your dog a good bit and remain silent it will start relocating again on its own when it needs to. Mine do. As you mentioned dogs know full well when they are in a hunt test vs hunting wild birds.
Kinda goes against the grain of them folks who have dogs that just stay there until a tap , or even a dismount from a horse ?
I think Giuseppe asked a question ,rather than mention as confirmation I could be wrong?
Personally, If a dog knows full well the difference between a hunt test vs hunting wild birds , then those dogs are not for me ,or any shooter/hunter or even Field trialer I know. But hey' If it works for the games one plays , Non sibi sed patriae. Oorah to all that be the best with theirs .
I would say a dog which does not know the difference between a Hunt Test and Hunting has done very little Hunting. Every good dog man I know would say the same so I guess we run in entirely different circles.

Seems you need to reread Giuseppe's post as his preference for a dog self relocating and his lament his dog used to and now does not is very apparent. Hence my response.

I have listened to Jon Hann discuss this many times. A guy who has won far more FTs than most and who hunts wild birds annually from ND to NM. His standard of training and performance is very simple. The dog is free to relocate until he is in front of the dog attempting to flush. The dog is never free to attempt to catch the bird unless it is wounded. Same as the two NAVHDA Senior Judge Friends of mine responded when I asked them and relayed the answer to Giuseppe.

It yields a dog which knows how to work wild birds and relocate when it needs to and a dog which will stand steady to pen raised morons walking in plain sight of the dog while the handler is in front trying to make them fly in a Hunt Test.

CJ, Spud hunts wild roosters in 4 states annually. He is an expert as can be seen in that video. His nose and head are cranked up beautifully as Giuseppe commented. I cannot tell you how many hundreds of running wild rooster pheasants I have shot behind GWPs working as seen in that video over the last 40 years.

Spud pinned down that bird and produced an easy shot when it flushed going out low and straight away as PHD educated public land surviving pheasants are known to do.
Polmaise and Averageguy, thank you both for the replies. Yes I was asking a question, but also averageguy answered it. So all good.
My dog has been hunted/trained almost exclusively on wild iowa pheasants. Despite having a full time job (which includes after hours calls and weekend emergencies) and a wife and 3 little children, I am pretty serious about training/hunting my dog, and I do what I can with the time I have. Of course I wish I could be out there every day but I can't.
Despite having been raised with gundogs, I am new to formalized gundog training, but I love it. I didn't know what i was missing.
We train on wild birds from July 16 (when iowa training season opens on public land) to March 15 (when it closes) with the hunting season in between. My dog has had two hunting seasons under her belt and had many pheasants shot over her.
When I sent her to summer camp in nebraska last summer I had asked the trainer only to expose her to prarie grouse (she was only a little over a year old and had only been hunted for one season). She was there for a little over a month. I am not sure why, but I guess the trainer felt like she was ready for the steadying process, so he started breaking her. Last season (her second) we had a bit of a struggle, (like I said, she was not self relocating well on wild pheasants), but, don't get me wrong, she still pinned down many pheasants and produced many birds finds. I cannot say that she is an expert like your Spud, Averageguy, but she does know her pheasants. On the few pen raised birds and pigeons she has been exposed to, she is super steady (easy since they don't move) and she knows the drill. I can see that she is starting to tell the difference between wild and pen raised.
Yesterday morning we went out on some public land for some training. I followed your advice, Averageguy, and out of the 4 finds on wild pheasant clutches (which by the way were running like crazy in the wet morning grass) she self relocated one beautifully. I said nothing to her. I am hoping that she will continue.

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by polmaise » Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:52 pm

cjhills wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:26 am

My apologies to Polmaise for the highjack. i just thought it was interesting..........Cj
None necessary ! It always is interesting appreciating the 'differences' .
The thread can take whatever route or direction as far as I am personally concerned .

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crackerd
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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by crackerd » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:44 am

polmaise wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:52 pm
cjhills wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:26 am

My apologies to Polmaise for the highjack. i just thought it was interesting..........Cj
None necessary ! It always is interesting appreciating the 'differences' .
The thread can take whatever route or direction as far as I am personally concerned .
Would that be autonomous relocating you've cleared the way for, Robert, or do you still require a tap on the haid for permission? :wink:

MG

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Re: Vive'ing la difference

Post by polmaise » Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:06 pm

crackerd wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:44 am
or do you still require a tap on the haid for permission? :wink:

MG
Often a Glesga kiss is required for some :lol:

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