Training Question #1

[BlessedGirl]

Hey guys,
I'm training my first bird dog and have loads of questions... Introduction first.
I got my Irish Setter (or Red, whatever y'all call AF dogs) puppy in July at 10-1/2 weeks old. Never have I hunted birds before. I've hunted blacktail deer on and off starting 7 or 8 years ago . Haven't gone for a few years now. I didn't get my pup for hunting; I'm going to be hunting because of her, so both of us have lots to learn. My puppy's name is Independence, Indy for short, and from the beginning she's lived up to her name. She's smart as a whip, with quite the nose and legs! I've seen her pointing and flushing robins out of a thicket in the woods on her own, with no help from me. Also is a very happy and confident puppy.,

One thing, though. Indy's not like the other farm dogs in personality. They LOVE attention and any sort of scratching and petting they can get. She, on the other hand, loves any sort of yummy food she can get (including calf manure, but that's not the problem today). It took around a month from the time I got her for her to give me that first "I love you" stretch. Oftentimes, when I call her she'll come to me for two seconds to get a pat, and then she's off again to the next thing.

Indy definitely likes me though. When I come home or let her out of her kennel in the morning she often gets all wiggly and happy. She especially loves me for giving her food. She'll do ANYTHING for food. I started using mealtime as a training session and she catches on so fast! I'm only doing obedience right now, but amazed at her brains. I think with the proper training she'll be amazing, but without treats involved she can at times be very distracted. I'm kinda wondering if she'll be okay switching from treats to very little treats in the field... Who always has treats in hand when they're out hunting?

QUESTION #1: How do I train Indy with her having such little need for affection, and will training her only with treats have a negative effect later on?

P.S. Not saying this dog needs to be needy and slobbering all over me. I don't want her to be needy; I love that she's so confident!

[cjhills]

Personally, I don't think a dog has to like you for you to train him. He does haveto respect you.
I think it would be best if you don't try to encourage her to get all excited when she sees you. Calm is always better.
I don't see why you would havea problem with using treats especially for obedience training. Treats are more about teaching her that she is rewarded for doing good. As she learns to obey you can phase out the treats.
She sounds like a very nice cooperative dog that will train easily. As she gets al little older you will need some way to enforce commands at a distance. For me that is a properly introduced ecollar at six months or older, used gently.
She does not need to be rewarded every time she does anything. She learns when she is given a command she gets a treat when she obeys. Soon she will learn to obey the command only. You can train everything she needs to know in the yard. Introduce birds and distractions later.......Cj

[Steve007]

If you will look up "marker word for dog training", you will find it to be an interesting tool that seems just right for your food-oriented dog. It basically consists of transferring the positive vibrations of a treat to a word, and will effectively take the place of a treat by using your own voice. It is not dissimilar to what the clicker people do (I am not one of them, and am not a fan), except that the word is what you always have with you and can be heard at much greater range. I use "yes!", though I sometimes conversationally lapse into "good work" with my trained dog.

Here's a link to one explanation, but do a little research on developing a marker word with your dog. You can find examples of how to do this on YouTube.

https://www.dog-training-excellence.com ... -word.html

[Garrison]

She sounds like a dog I wouldn’t mind owning. Independence and cooperation are two highly desired traits in a bird dog, sometimes it’s pretty difficult to get both at the same time. Consider yourself fortunate, and trust that she will soon realize the sport of it (work), is treat enough. In less than a year you will have a dog that gets as excited to see a check cord and e-collar as she is for food now. Keep us posted, and post some pictures!!!! No puppy thread is good without pictures.

Garrison

[RayGubernat]

Personally, I don't think a dog has to like you for you to train him. He does haveto respect you.
I think it would be best if you don't try to encourage her to get all excited when she sees you. Calm is always better.
I don't see why you would havea problem with using treats especially for obedience training. Treats are more about teaching her that she is rewarded for doing good. As she learns to obey you can phase out the treats.
She sounds like a very nice cooperative dog that will train easily. As she gets al little older you will need some way to enforce commands at a distance. For me that is a properly introduced ecollar at six months or older, used gently.
She does not need to be rewarded every time she does anything. She learns when she is given a command she gets a treat when she obeys. Soon she will learn to obey the command only. You can train everything she needs to know in the yard. Introduce birds and distractions later.......Cj

I agree with just about all of this. Calm IS better, so let the youngster workoff some of their energy first and when you call her and she comes, follow the treat with stroking from ears to tail and back again until she settles, and then stroke some more. I am also a believer in "intermittent" food rewards for correct behavior.

But EVERY time the dog does what you want...let her know that she has plesed you with a pat on the flank, a soothing stroke or simply a softly spoken
"Goooood Girl".

cJ is right about the dog learning to enjoy birds and hunting. Bird dogs absolutely live and breathe to hunt and find birds. Hunting is not just something a bird dog does. It is who and what they are.
When she put two and two together, in a year or so, and realizes that YOU are her path to the birds and hunting... you will know it.

RayG

[BlessedGirl]

by cjhills: Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:12 pm
Personally, I don't think a dog has to like you for you to train him. He does haveto respect you.
I think it would be best if you don't try to encourage her to get all excited when she sees you. Calm is always better.
I don't see why you would havea problem with using treats especially for obedience training. Treats are more about teaching her that she is rewarded for doing good. As she learns to obey you can phase out the treats.
She sounds like a very nice cooperative dog that will train easily. As she gets al little older you will need some way to enforce commands at a distance. For me that is a properly introduced ecollar at six months or older, used gently.
She does not need to be rewarded every time she does anything. She learns when she is given a command she gets a treat when she obeys. Soon she will learn to obey the command only. You can train everything she needs to know in the yard. Introduce birds and distractions later.......Cj

I don't think Indy needs to be jumpy when she sees me... And she isn't. She's amazingly calm, especially for a puppy. I'm fine with how her brain works and we both like hanging out with each other. She'll come up to me and stand there calmly, wagging her tail and not being obnoxious (like some needy dogs I've had experience with). I think she's good how she is: happy and confident, but usually quite calm unless she hasn't seen me for a while. I have no problem training with treats, but I was just wondering how to get her attention without always having to give her a treat when she obeys. I guess from what you guys are saying that I'll just train her with treats for now and then when she's more solid slowly back off and maybe to verbal praise, etc., right?
I like that intermittent treat idea. I read that it kinda works on dogs like a slot machine does on people, ie., the dog is always putting forth the effort and hoping this is the time it'll get the reward Haven't tried it yet though. Indy hasn't been introduced to birds yet. She still needs more work before that happens. I sure hope she turns out to be all that she has potential for! I waited so long for her and want to help her be the best she possibly can.

by Garrison » Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:23 pm

She sounds like a dog I wouldn’t mind owning. Independence and cooperation are two highly desired traits in a bird dog, sometimes it’s pretty difficult to get both at the same time. Consider yourself fortunate, and trust that she will soon realize the sport of it (work), is treat enough. In less than a year you will have a dog that gets as excited to see a check cord and e-collar as she is for food now. Keep us posted, and post some pictures!!!! No puppy thread is good without pictures.

Garrison

Yep, thankful I'm blessed with this puppy. I'll try post pictures in the near future, but recently one of my device screens cracked so it's more inconvenient now to try upload pictures on here.

[cjhills]

Thanks Ray.I forgot the part about long firm strokes that calm the dog as opposed to excited pats that jack up the dog. I always try to encourage that in my puppy buyers. there are a lot more patters than strokers including myself. I had to work hard to stop that.
I would not worry about introducing birds or expect to much.mlst of my dogsdon't seeabird until 6 months or later.
Shesounds like a great puppy and it is nearly impossible to screwup awell bred bird dog......Cj

[BlessedGirl]

Alrighty. Thanks for all your help. After my question and all your replies it caused me to observe my pup more with a somewhat critical eye, and the tips and info help me to understand the training process and what I should be working on. Saw an article in GunDog Magazine yesterday that reinforced what you've been saying about the calm dog. So I'm going to apply the training principles to try encourage calm behavior. You all have helped me out a ton!

[Sharon]

and that's what we are here for. Nobody does it better than our forum members.

[BlessedGirl]

and that's what we are here for. Nobody does it better than our forum members.

Right on!

[BlessedGirl]

Little girl is coming along terrifically in her obedience training! Here are those pic of her. 20 weeks old now. The first pic was taken back in July.

[BlessedGirl]

Grabbing the leash

[deseeker]

Good looking pup.

[oregon woodsmoke]

She's a bird dog. Hunting comes first, you come second. You train her and at some point, the penny drops and she figures out that she needs you to go hunting and she will start to be more cooperative.

Believe me, she will work for approval. She just isn't taking all of her attention off of her primary focus to enjoy it, but she does appreciate it and want it.

First step in training is to explain to the dog what it is you want. If cookies are the best way to do that, then use cookies. You might want to wean off the cookies and get her working for approval, or maybe working in exchange for giving her some work, but cookies can help a lot when the dog is trying to figure out what you want them to do.

She's really beautiful. It's going to be worth all the work when you see her out in the field, flashing that shiny red coat.

[BlessedGirl]

Thanks guys, and also for the tips/encouragement, oregon woodsmoke. I can't wait til the day I see her out there. Yes, she does want approval... I can see it by the way she acts, even though at this point she doesn't always find it a good enough reason to sit and stay, etc. (Treats are better, so she thinks.) I'll take your word for it and just do my best to be patient until she figures things out.