Running Off

huskerhunter · Post by **huskerhunter** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:51 am

I have a gsp that is just over a year old now. He knows all the basic commands like sit, stay, no, and come. But in the last couple of months he has just bolted on me three times and does not listen at all when he has done this. We have him in a fenced in back yard and each time he has taken off the gate was open because somebody was opening it to go into the backyard. He just bolts and I yell at him to come and yell no at him but it is like he doesn't even hear me. I have been lucky so far that I have not lost him as I live in town and there are always people outside that have been able to tell me the direction that he has gone. When I do finally get to where I can see him and he can see me I can yell come and he comes right to me. I do not want to lose him, is there anything that I can do to correct this behaivor? Would a shock collar help if I put it on him and then let him take off?

Thanks for any and all advice

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:14 am

It is just a basic training problem and I would say that you are not finished with the bsic obedience at this point. It only works if they do it. An e collar would be a solution but you should go slow with that as you can yourself a bigger problem if you are too harsh.

When he takes off, where does he go? It is a hunting deal or is he just being "hardheaded" and not listening and you have a hard time catching him.

I would suggest that you put a lock on the gate and you have the key to keep yourself from having a heartbreaking tradegy. You go in and out there and hardly anyone else.

Pepper

arrowbanshee · Post by **arrowbanshee** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:48 am

welcome to the forum, hotpepper is right

hoffmann35 · Post by **hoffmann35** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:40 am

Pepper is right on here.

Try this link here, I did a combination of most of the suggestions and they all worked for me. I had the same problem.

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... highlight=

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:47 am

this very situation was the impetus for my first e collar purchase.

buy a good one learn how to use it,videos books ect, condition the dog to it in yard training with the kennel comand so he learns how to turn the pressure off, then let him pull that stunt and correct him.

My hardhead was funny the first time I nailed him for that stunt he stopped looked back at me and decided "naw" that couldn't be Bob doing that and took off again, ZAP , second time was a charm.

He never tested me with that again and became the best and most loved Shorthair I will ever own. He just had to believe.

I personally purchase dummy collars file the points down and let them wear them for two weeks before I start the collar conditioning.

Don · Post by **Don** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:52 am

Sorta sounds to me like a good pup that is not getting the proper combination of field work and yard work. All the commands you listed are obedience commands. You said not one word about how it is working in the field or how it's doing around birds. Nothing about how it acts around gun fire.

Does your dog point birds at all yet? Does it stay with you in the field, maybe a good range but is there when you finish? Can you get it to come around in the field? How much actual field time loose has this pup had?

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:07 am

Exercise and field work is important not making light of it but

the dog should come when hes called once, no matter what...

I rarely use collars while training but this is one thing collars are really good for, making that dog believe you can enforce the come command will do a lot to keep him from getting flattend by a vehicle.

huskerhunter · Post by **huskerhunter** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:14 am

When he takes off I think that it is just to get out of the backyard and he doesn't really care where he goes.

He has only hunted one season that was last year when he was about 6 months old. I had him out several times hunting last year I would guess between 15 and 20. He does ok in the field, I didn't expect much with him being so young and maybe that is part of the problem. Gun fire does not bother him at all, he usually runs to you when he hears a gun shot because he knows that sound means a dead bird. He didn't point birds the first few times out but by the last few times he was pointing and holding point very well. The one thing that I was worried about when hunting which may be part of the problem is he does range a long ways out. I did not have an e-collar this last year but have recently purchased one in hopes to keep him from ranging so far. Sometimes when ranging to far he would come when called and sometimes he would keep hunting.

Thanks for all the replys so far and keep them coming as this is my first dog and I can use all the help I can get.

arrowbanshee · Post by **arrowbanshee** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:19 am

whether e-collar, check chord or whatever means, do not give a command unless you can enforce it. With e-collar make sure not to nic the dog unless you can see it i.e. you could be commanding here(come) and you dont see him and he is not coming because he is on point, so make sure not to nic him unless you can see him.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:44 am

Him rangeing out is not a problem unless you are really uncomfortable with it, most first time pointer owners worry too much about it, I know I did. You will get more comfortable with range when you learn to trust him and he learns to mind.

Get some good tapes and books on collar training before you use it and use the time your studying up on collar use to let him wear the collar, or a dummy collar so he gets used to it. That will help prevent him form becoming collarwise, most of my dogs are collar wise anyway but uts woth a try.

A collar is a very useful thing once you understand what to use it for.

Your concerns are very common and easily corrected , good luck.

I'm an older fart and kind of out of touch with current videos, maybe some of these guys could recommend a modern video thats a good one.

arrowbanshee · Post by **arrowbanshee** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:48 am

I should qualify my previous post as this is all new to me but this is what I have heard and read, just passing the info along but I am by no means an expert. As far as vidoes are concerned, I have the perfect start video and my dog is already beyond a lot of the stuff in the video, but I did like what they showed on using the e-collar.

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:12 pm

I scanned the posts, so here are my thoughts...put a lock on the gate and don't allow anyone to open it unless you are there to control the dog and the situation. Field work and house manners have little to do with each other. GET ON HIS BUTT!! He needs to listen to you at the house or he's gonna die. And, yes, give him plenty of exercise and he won't have so much energy to run off. His running off has nothing to do with how he will act in the field, but can get him killed, QUICK!

highcotton · Post by **highcotton** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:18 pm

TrueBlu Shorthairs wrote:I scanned the posts, so here are my thoughts...put a lock on the gate and don't allow anyone to open it unless you are there to control the dog and the situation. Field work and house manners have little to do with each other. GET ON HIS BUTT!! He needs to listen to you at the house or he's gonna die. And, yes, give him plenty of exercise and he won't have so much energy to run off. His running off has nothing to do with how he will act in the field, but can get him killed, QUICK!

Good post.....I agree

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:36 pm

Right on Tru Blu.

This was the exact thing that made me get a collar and it solved the problem immediately and with a very little reinforcement it has stayed solved. In my mind dead dogs are hard to train and all you are telling the pup with the collar is you still have control and that is not a bad thing with any future training.

Ezzy

bird · Post by **bird** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:50 pm

TrueBlu Shorthairs · Post by **TrueBlu Shorthairs** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:17 pm

The only reason I say it, is...I lived it. I own three of the most hard headed GSPs in the history of the breed, two of which are Greif linebred and by definition are HARD headed. My oldest male is the greatest birddog I have ever seen, is great in the house, loves everyone, and is obscenely hard headed. It took a few years before I realized that he thought he owned me. I screamed and yelled, jerked around on him, got up in the middle of his rear, bit him, finally sort of made a believer of him that I owned HIM. Some of 'em are just tough and won't listen. Gotta show them who owns whom !!

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:32 pm

The mere fact that the pup charges through the gate when you open it tells you he isn't really obedience trained. He should whoa at that gate until you tell him it's OK to go through, then he should be at heel. You must challenge these dogs to get compliance. It begins with challenging him in and out of the house doors, kennel doors, and finally the yard. Don't take the cc off until the dog is perfect. Every time you yell "no, here," and the dog runs off, he's won and you've lost. Mechanical tools like the collar won't correct flaws in your training; they are only an aid, not a band aid.

LarryLowell · Post by **LarryLowell** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:41 pm

I like Trueblus post its good advice.

I read where a few peole were recommending using an e-collar well, personally an e-collar isnt practical to use all the time.

I would start right away with general yard obedience: Heal, Here, Stay/Whoa, Down. Right now I dont think the dog is repecting you totally, like TrueBlu said get on his butt and dont put up with it. If you dont trust the dog kennel him up or stake him out during the day when your going in and out through the gate, hot wires work well too.

IMO the dog is taking off because he need to be run more. Hes not listening to you because dogs are greedy S.O.B's if you dont take him for a run he'll do it himself.

Good Luck

Larry Lowell

Don · Post by **Don** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:21 pm

Well now we know that he point's birds, in fact had birds shot for him. And it's easy to assume that even tho he knows the basic obedience commands, they have not been fully trained. I doubt they were at 6 mos either, they're not now!

Sounds to me like you showed him what he wants without guidelines and now your paying for that. So where do you go now? I'd take him back to the field along with plenty of yard work and work him on a check cord if I were you. If you really want a shock collar, get one and put it on him but for now leave the transmitter home. I think you need to work him, his cromozones are screaming for it. You woke him up to soon. At the same time you need to finish the yard work. You need to undo the field work you did and finish the obedience work you started. Alway's do the obedience work in the yard first then go to the field. The field is the reward and it seem's he darn sure know's it's there and waiting. And do lock the gate. You are obviously aware of what happen's if you don't, don't be suprized when it does. Lock it and then you'll still know what's going to happen, it won't open unless you unlock it and the dog can't charge thru it.

You didn't answer another posters question. What does he do when he get's out? How far does he have to go to get to a field where he might find birds? He's not getting out to chase cats and dump garbage cans is he?

huskerhunter · Post by **huskerhunter** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:19 am

Thanks for all of the advice I do appreciate it. I already have a lock on the gate and I am going to get him back on the cc on work on all the basic commands again until I am 100% sure that he knows them and will listen. I will also do some more field work with him. I know that he is still a pup and probably testing me and that is why I want to get this fixed before it gets to the point where it is unfixable or worse he gets hit by a car or I lose him.

When he gets out he just runs as hard and as fast as he can. He hasn't gone the same direction any of the times that he has bolted. He also pays no attention to other people, birds, or pets which is not like him at all. He doesn't have far to go to get to a field since we live on the edge of town but he hasn't got that far yet.

Thanks again for all the help.

Springer · Post by **Springer** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:53 pm

The first Springer that I had would bolt every time the kids would leave the gate open. He ended up getting hit by a car and when I brought home the next one the fence went down.

She would stay in the yard and not even go in the street, now I have a GSP and she is a fence climber and digger and just doesn't want to stay in the kennel or back yard but she is sitting on the front porch and waits for someone to find her. She has gotten nabbed by the police a couple of times and the last one was about five minutes before the kids got home from school or I could have saved over $100.

I just emphasize the dog to stay around and am outside with them and don't let them run off. Of course it helps to start when the dogs are puppies.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:26 pm

LarryLowell wrote: IMO the dog is taking off because he need to be run more. Hes not listening to you because dogs are greedy S.O.B's if you dont take him for a run he'll do it himself.

Good Luck

Larry Lowell

If a dog is properly obedience trained, which I believe all of us are saying it is not, it doesn't matter whether he wants to run or not....he must come when commanded.

LarryLowell · Post by **LarryLowell** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:06 pm

LarryLowell wrote:I like Trueblus post its good advice.

I read where a few peole were recommending using an e-collar well, personally an e-collar isnt practical to use all the time.

I would start right away with general yard obedience: Heal, Here, Stay/Whoa, Down. Right now I dont think the dog is repecting you totally, like TrueBlu said get on his butt and dont put up with it. If you dont trust the dog kennel him up or stake him out during the day when your going in and out through the gate, hot wires work well too.

IMO the dog is taking off because he need to be run more. Hes not listening to you because dogs are greedy S.O.B's if you dont take him for a run he'll do it himself.

Good Luck

Larry Lowell

If your going to quote me, quote the entire post. I agree the dog needs to come when called and not run off. The part in my post that you quoted was stating IMO why the dog is self running and taking off. To stop him form doing that, like you said and like I also said in the part of my post you didnt quote. "start right away with general yard obedience: Heal, Here, Stay/Whoa, Down"

Fact is some dogs are just escape artists, they'll climb, dig, run through your legs etc... to get loose. In alot of cases you need to confine the dog better, like a kennel, or stakeout, or hot wire. In some cases you need to crack open the gate and start kicking to teach them to back off. After someone does their best to control the escaping the best they can, they also need to do more yard work, and exercising the dog more.

Larry Lowell

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:35 pm

IMO Larry, the rest of the post had no bearing whatsoever on the part of the post I quoted, so it was left out. It doesn't matter why a dog runs off and doesn't listen; more exercise, disregard for owner, female in heat, lack of training. There is no excuse for a dog ever doing it. That was my point. Kicking a dog to me, is never, ever an option. It's too easy to hit the dog wrong and hurt it badly. You also state again that the dog should be exercised more. You don't know that it isn't and neither do I. Fact is, the dog needs debolting, not kicking or beating the heck out of it.

Billy Ray · Post by **Billy Ray** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:41 pm

In some cases you need to crack open the gate and start kicking to teach them to back off.

Real classy move there, kicking a dog, WTF! Scary thing is , you're actually trying to give advice. Boy oh boy I bet you've trained some dandies with that aproach.

Post by **topher40** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:16 pm

I didnt see anywhere in Larry's post where he stated " kick the dog. " I would atleast like to think I know what he meant because I have had to kick the kennel door and the ground to keep them from bolting out of the kennel.

Im not trying to get into a pissing match, but if we want to argue then lets resort to PM'ing and keep it off the board. I would also like to thank the administrators again for keeping this clean and hope that they will continue.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:48 pm

I'm with you Topher. I would be surprised if everyone hasn't had to block a pup from going through a door or out a gate when they decide they want to. And there have been many times that resulted in either pinching them or kicking to get their attention. Usually after a few sessions like that they begin to know what stay means.

Ezzy

jackflash · Post by **jackflash** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:12 pm

Doesn't look like anyone answered your request for a good video on ecollar training, so I'll give it a try:

If you are into low level stimulation and avoidance/escape training with the ecollar, George Hickox is about the best source for ecollar theory and practice. He has a series of DVDs on pointing dog training. The DVD on obedience and collar training should give you what you need to successfully use the ecollar.

If your preference is for correction/punishment training with higher levels of stimulation. Hickox's material won't hjelp..........

LarryLowell · Post by **LarryLowell** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:46 am

gonehuntin' wrote:IMO Larry, the rest of the post had no bearing whatsoever on the part of the post I quoted, so it was left out. It doesn't matter why a dog runs off and doesn't listen; more exercise, disregard for owner, female in heat, lack of training. There is no excuse for a dog ever doing it. That was my point. Kicking a dog to me, is never, ever an option. It's too easy to hit the dog wrong and hurt it badly. You also state again that the dog should be exercised more. You don't know that it isn't and neither do I. Fact is, the dog needs debolting, not kicking or beating the heck out of it.

LOL, use some common sence, LOL You know what I mean. This coming from a guy that wants to step on a young pups feet.

At least Topher40 has the common sence to understand what I was saying.

Larry Lowell

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:46 am

topher40 wrote:I didnt see anywhere in Larry's post where he stated " kick the dog. "

Then you apparently missed this part:"In some cases you need to crack open the gate and start kicking to teach them to back off."

IMO, anyone that has to kick a dog, or kick at a dog, to stop it from going through a gate, just hasn't trained the dog IMO. This is one of the first places you work on WHOA and NO, control when a dog wants to run throug a door ahead of you. Basic.

As far as a basic training video goes, Dobbs is very good if you're into low lever and continuous stimularion with the collar.

bobman · Post by **bobman** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:17 am

applying light pressure to a pups foot is a lot different than kicking one.

I've read alot of his posts and his advice is solid, he doesnt advocate actaully stepping on the dogs foot with all your weight.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:45 am

bobman wrote:I've read alot of his posts and his advice is solid, he doesnt advocate actaully stepping on the dogs foot with all your weight.

Probably no more so than the other fellow was saying to actually kick the dog to injure him.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:53 am

Lot different Slistoe. Using your feet with a dog is like slapping one with your hand. One can make him foot shy and nervous around your legs, the other makes him handshy. IMO, it's simply not a good idea.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:12 am

I have used my feet and hands to stop pups from bolting the kennel door and house door since I started with dogs. I have never owned a dog that was foot shy or hand shy. So I think I will continue to do so and will not shy away from nor condemn anyone who recommends the same.

jbogacki76 · Post by **jbogacki76** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:17 am

My guy would bolt down the 150 foot driveway all the time when he was a pup. He would look at me and run.

I ran him all the time when he was a pup and he had a lot of exercise. I think he associated the driveway with going for field work. Because I started planting birds in the yard and doing my yard work / field work (before I sent him up for training) and it worked for me. He never ran down the driveway again. If he starts walking down the drive way I say no, and he comes right back.

As far as I know, no shorthair owner can keep their dog in the yard.... LOL....

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:32 am

slistoe wrote:I have used my feet and hands to stop pups from bolting the kennel door and house door since I started with dogs. I have never owned a dog that was foot shy or hand shy. So I think I will continue to do so and will not shy away from nor condemn anyone who recommends the same.

I think that's an excellent idea, IMO.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:32 pm

IMO, anyone that has to kick a dog, or kick at a dog, to stop it from going through a gate, just hasn't trained the dog IMO. This is one of the first places you work on WHOA and NO, control when a dog wants to run throug a door ahead of you. Basic.

I think that is what they call basic training. I fail to see the difference in kicking and stomping at a dog to scare them back from a gate or stepping on a foot lightly to correct a sitting. Neither one even suggests animal abuse the way they are stated. Like I said before I don't suppose there is a person alive that hasn't done either of those things to teach a pup how to act or to keep a pup from escaping when you are tryin to enter a run with your hands full. And I will guarantee neither injured the dog in any way.

Lets use some common sense when reading post and stop trying to find something to disagree about. I'll bet there isn't a single person on here that didn't understand what the poster meant in either case including the people who just had to pointout the problem with the other persons posts.
It just isn't necessary. Most of us are adults.

Ezzy

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:51 pm

In my opinion Ezzy, you and I will just have to agree to never agree on anything. IMO.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:09 pm

Gone huntin'

Too late, we have already agreed on quite a few things. However, There are things we don't and I normally just let them pass since we all have our opinions. I do not feel the need to tell people I think you are wrong or in most cases that I even disagree with you. That isn't why we are here.

Ezzy

bird · Post by **bird** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:12 pm

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:04 pm

Bird, That about covers it.

Ezzy

Dude · Post by **Dude** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:33 am

I was having exactly the same problem with my setter. Posted almost the same message and got the same replies minus the bickering. Since then I have gone back and really focused on obedience training. I am see the results. I still don't feel confident enough to let her off the check cord but she is coming along. Be patient and don't give up they will come around.

Dude

GSPaddict · Post by **GSPaddict** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:01 am

I installed an invisible fence around my 2 acres yard recently and just finished training my escape artist with the fence. It works a lot better then expected. My GSP tested it 2 times. Now I can leave him outside for many hours and he doesn't try it. Of course I can't control dogs coming in but usually when my dog is outside, I am somewhere close...

Maybe thats an option for some of you...

Gun Dog Forum

Running Off

Running Off

Collar training video