Crazy Question

owen · Post by **owen** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:21 pm

I'm never totally happy with my conditioning program prior to trialing (NSTRA). I work dogs on foot and also condition in groups on a mountain bike. I know a lot of guys use a 4 wheeler with pipe ties to snap dogs to, or just free run them with a 4 wheeler. I don't have a 4 wheeler and don't really want to invest in one.
I've heard of guys conditioning bird dogs in a harness pulling a mountain bike or a 3 wheel cart much like sled dogs. Anyone have any experience or knowledge of this practice?
We have local dog sled enthusiasts that have encouraged me to try it. I believe their dogs are the ultimate atheletes of the dog world. Anyone see any pitfalls in trying this with bird dogs?

Trigger · Post by **Trigger** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:25 pm

I know my trainer in South Dakota is doing this now with my GSP. they are pulling a four wheeler. I think the idea is just to get the resistance for them to build up the muscle and endurance needed.

I agree about the sled dogs. Truely magnificant animals

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:30 pm

Only real pit FALL is when you have something that the dogs decides to go for which is not in a forward motion

a Buddy of mine tried it...rabbit tookoff dog went after the rabbit needless to say he got a serious case of raspberry road rash

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:53 pm

owen, we have had quite a bit of discussion on this issue in the past. i have had extended conversations with the sled dog people to learn how they condition, and use many of their techniques.

i have not found that a bike works very well at all. if the dog stops for some reason, such as to poop, or if it darts off the trail to go after something suddenly, it will invariably cause you to fall and get hurt. on a bike, you are sort of speared by that seat and seat post, and can't get off in the event of a sudden occurrence.

What the sled dog people use for offseason training are primarily carts, or the less expensive option of a dog scooter. A dog scooter is built like a bike, except that it has no seat to sit on, but rather a platform that you stand on. You can find some examples at www.dogscooter.com .

Here is a link to one of the old discussions:

http://www.gundogforum.com/forum/viewto ... 99&start=0

owen · Post by **owen** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:04 pm

Thanks John. You and I have conversed on other sites about Rusty, Timmy and others.

I'm new on this site. I looked over the link you provided from last summer. Some good ideas. I'm not too thrilled with the idea of being tied to these speedsters on a bike either. The scooter looks better. The sled dog guys also talk about a 3 wheel tricycle that may also bear investigation.

I think I will visit some more with my sled dog folks and maybe scare up some used equipment to try.

Thanks much.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:00 pm

From what I have seen of the carts, they would work for a team of three or more dogs, but are not very good for smaller teams. If you have one or two to condition, the scooter is a better way to go.

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:46 pm

Owen,

I'm not so sure you need a conditioning program as such. You mentioned running NSTRA and you really want a dog that stays with you more as apposed to blazing away as in horseback trials. My opinion is that you'd be way ahead of the game to train as normal about an hour a day, three days a week, which would include a good long walk looking for birds. The dog should learn to pace itself that way to a foot hunter and the dog that spends a few hours walking and looking for birds a week, would seem to me to be a better NSTRA candidate. Rather that than an awesomely conditioned dog who's first cast may be the last you see of him that brace.

Walk it in as good of hills as you can find and put down birds to be sure he keeps hunting. One of the things I discovered when I trialed was that I didn't need conditioning, my training grounds were far tuffer than any trial ground I ran on. I also trained in the heat. Sessions weren't as long and were hard on me but, my dogs never fell apart in the heat, at least heat that was taking most dogs out.

This is not to say your dog shouldn't be in adequate condition for whats expected of it, but how much is really expected of a dog for 30 min on a 40 acre field. Throw in stopped time for 4 or 5 or more finds and,,,,,,,,,ya see where it's going. Actually a hunting dog needs to be in better condition to hunt two full days than a NSTRA dog to run 30 min , rest some time then run 30 more min. Unless your dog is really well trained, you just might create more of a problem than you fix.

Now you NSTRA people don't get mad at me. I started in NSTRA and think its a lot of fun, but it has little to do really with endurance.

Sonny Hawkins · Post by **Sonny Hawkins** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:05 pm

Now Don, Even though the NSTRA fields are 30 or 40 acres, When you and your dog cover the field say three times, your dogs humpin it and the handler is humpin it, It takes alot out of the dog and handler, The way I figure it, three times covering 40 acres = 120 acres. Thats a lot of hunting for 30 min.

Sonny

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:14 pm

I'm just a hunter, not a trialer but I hunt 3-4 days a week, I'm down to one dog now until my old boy finally cashes in, so my dog has to be in great shape. We have a trail by us that is smooth gravel and over 30 miles long. I work the dog's 4 days a week on it. Two days they run beside or in front of my mountian bike, free running, 8-11 miles. Two days a week they tow 4 24" lengths of 3/8" logging chain in a pulling harness, about 3-3/12 miles. By hunting season they're in tip top shape.

Sonny Hawkins · Post by **Sonny Hawkins** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:27 pm

Gonehuntin, Sounds like you have a good program , Be my luck the dog would get to close to the bike and Ied BREAK something. Ill bet you are in pretty good shape yourself by the time season opens. Sonny

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:42 pm

Pulling chain is the easiest and cheapest way to get resistance training.

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:42 pm

Everybody would probably be well off with Gonehuntin's conditioning program. I think we get a lot farther out of shape than our dogs and if conditioning the dogs gets you in shape, I'm pretty sure the dogs won't mind!

Now the question is who's conditionng who?

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:19 pm

Sonny Hawkins wrote:Gonehuntin, Sounds like you have a good program , Be my luck the dog would get to close to the bike and Ied BREAK something. Ill bet you are in pretty good shape yourself by the time season opens. Sonny

Not too bad sonny, but I've had three knee operations, a broken leg, and have a cadaver's acl in one leg, plus planters ligament in right foot. So I never get in great shape like I used to. A bike is the least damaging way to do it for me. Course' it doesn't help that I'm old and fat.

As far as the dog running close to the bike, they generally learn to stay away from it. I always keep my hands on the brakes when they're close though.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:09 pm

Sonny Hawkins wrote:Now Don, Even though the NSTRA fields are 30 or 40 acres, When you and your dog cover the field say three times, your dogs humpin it and the handler is humpin it, It takes alot out of the dog and handler, The way I figure it, three times covering 40 acres = 120 acres. Thats a lot of hunting for 30 min. Sonny

I'll vouch for that. Those dogs run and run HARD for 30 minutes. It might not be in a straight line to the horizon, but conditioning is very, very important. A few NSTRA trials are run down here before it really cools off and some of those dogs are truly impressive in their ability to run hard and keep going for the full brace time in 90+ heat.

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:00 pm

Well I'm not old and fat! I'm experienced and well rounded!!

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:17 pm

I like my dogs to be able to run it is nicer when they are in shape and can run strong for 30 minutes not just make it around the field I want them AROUND the field

So yes I want a fast snappy dogs that will quickly work the field and I want my dogs to get out there

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:17 am

Don wrote:Well I'm not old and fat! I'm experienced and well rounded!!

Gotta jot that one down Don.

owen · Post by **owen** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:21 am

Sorry Don, but I'm afraid I have to disagree with you regarding NSTRA conditioning. I am a NSTRA judge and have finished two NSTRA champions in recent years. I know for a fact that a dog has to be well conditioned to win. In fact, I believe my NSTRA dogs work harder in 30 minutes than a horseback dog does in the first 30 minutes of his brace because he will pace himself for the brace length for which he has been conditioned.
I currently have 8 dogs in training/conditioning for upcoming trials. Yesterday, doing everything on foot, I estimate I did between 7 and 8 miles. I'm 54 years old, have bad knees and arthritic ankles. I know if I am going to continue to be competitive I need to find a way to bring my dogs into top condition without sacrificing my joints. I need to save my legs for the actual bird work/training/trialing and not waste them on conditioning.
I do get a kick out of all the young flat bellies in their 20's and 30's that do everything on a 4 wheeler. Just lazy.

Don · Post by **Don** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:28 pm

owen wrote:Sorry Don, but I'm afraid I have to disagree with you regarding NSTRA conditioning. I am a NSTRA judge and have finished two NSTRA champions in recent years. I know for a fact that a dog has to be well conditioned to win. In fact, I believe my NSTRA dogs work harder in 30 minutes than a horseback dog does in the first 30 minutes of his brace because he will pace himself for the brace length for which he has been conditioned.
I currently have 8 dogs in training/conditioning for upcoming trials. Yesterday, doing everything on foot, I estimate I did between 7 and 8 miles. I'm 54 years old, have bad knees and arthritic ankles. I know if I am going to continue to be competitive I need to find a way to bring my dogs into top condition without sacrificing my joints. I need to save my legs for the actual bird work/training/trialing and not waste them on conditioning.
I do get a kick out of all the young flat bellies in their 20's and 30's that do everything on a 4 wheeler. Just lazy.

I ran NSTRA trials and judged a great deal in the 80's. I also ran and judged AKC trials. I don't meant to take anything away from NSTRA dogs but, most of them would fall apart at the horse back trials. They're two different formats and for what it's worth, many dogs that ran AKC while I was doing it weren't is near good enough condition and took themselves out of it for no reason than they couldn't maintain their pace. In NSTRA a dog that paced itself was there at the end. The most telling thing was when the trials were ran on hot days and even many of the dogs in good shape would fall apart. The speed and drive of a competative horseback dog was usually a detriment to a foot dog such as NSTRA.

I have judged Gene Mahoney's Lady, I'm a "bleep" Too, Owens Wincherster Jack. Jack was by far the dog in the best shape and If Gene could keep him in the field, he'd beat you. "bleep" and Lady never fell apart in the heat but they weren't in near the shape as Jack and they paced thenselves. Dale Andersons Reno vo Maggie May was anything but fast. But Reno stayed close and paced himself. Reno was never conditioned as such as I understood it. Dale just went out and worked him on birds befor work in the mornings. Of those four dogs, the only one that might make it thru a horseback course was Jack. And, no, Gene didn't do a lot of conditioning that he ever talked about either. Gailen Carothers ran dogs both ways, AKC and NSTRA. Gailen did condition and he had a terrible time keeping his dogs in the field.

Don · Post by **Don** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:40 pm

Owen,

One more thing. If you work your dog in heavy cover when it's warm out and work him 45 min to an hour, you won't have to worry about conditioning. I think I posted earlier that I gave up conditioning because my training grounds were so much tuffer than trial grounds.

I'm also coming 62 and need a knee replacement and my pelvis is held together with a steel plate so I know what you mean about getting around.

Sonny Hawkins · Post by **Sonny Hawkins** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:17 pm

HEY DON, If I lived in the wide open spaces, A horse back dog would be just Great. Where I live a man wants a dog to hunt maybe 300 yds or less. And if he hunts any futher, he needs to come back and check in so often. Whats the point of a dog hunting a mile away and having to have a scout or spotter to keep up with a dog. Thats just CRAZY to me . So come on back to NSTRA. We need good JUDGES.

Sonny

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:30 pm

300 yards will make you a decent Horseback Shooting Dog anywhere I have ridden.

Don · Post by **Don** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:47 pm

300 yds is pushing the limit on a gun dog. When I left AKC, if you had a dog at 300yds it had better have one heck of a handle. Don't tell anyone but the half mile dogs you hear about are usually either whip run dogs or self hunters. In my mind, the best trial dogs are the fairly big shooting dogs. I can't remember his name anymore but, a dentist in Spokane had a pointer that was maginficent, big shooting dog. He ran it in NSTRA when he got it going. Completely broke. First time I judged him he got 98's on the finds, mid 90's on retrieve's perfect score on his ground coverage and a 2 on obedience! I cut him some slack because the dog came by him at the end and he was able to hack it over. Boy did I like that dog! That dog and his mule was his pride and joy, really great guy! I have a lot of very fond memories of NSTRA. They probably wouldn't like me much anymore. I require the handler to show me his dog. I don't ride all over the field chasing dogs. I also didn't allow handlers to carry a gun in the field with a shell in the chamber and the action had to be open. Split decission on that one. Half of them loved me for it, the other half hated me!

Ya still want me back?